Army Guy

Really now your not happy with the way the specs were written.....they seemed to favor the wrong plane Martha.....after 14 years we are going to blame the specs....I'd like a source stating that DND has no longer a role to play in procurement......I get it it's the money guy that gets to write the specs , test each product, and choose.....what to buy....sounds about right...

what difference does the specs make....specs are develop by DND to give the money guys a chance to pick form available products out there, from there it goes back to DND for testing and evaluation.....DND submits its findings back to the money guys and the Cabinet.....they choose the equipment ...Not an expert amongst them.....all the testing and eval means squat.....what makes or breaks the decision is money, and off sets....it has nothing to do with picking the best equipment never is....

So I will repeat myself.....what is the point in spending millions on the testing , and research by the military. if 95 % of the time the money guy is going to pick....and when he does pick what are his first priorities , saving the crown money or providing a product that will do his job.....because he knows squat about the product...what he knows is dollars and cents....

Keep going, man this is getting to be to funny......pilots and SAR techs are not experts in aviation or SAR......I just wondering if these guys are not or chould not be consulted or involved in the testing who is ? the money guy...some politician.....who exactly......your ignorance in this subject is overwhelming.....

what are you 4 now.. stole dads log in.....and now your playing with the big boys.....come on squid....take your meds and come back to earth..... Like I have already said, I don't care what you think. No SAR techs do not procure planes.....but they would be consulted to what they were looking for in an aircraft, what would be useful and what would not be useful, they would also be involved in some of the testing.....right along side of the Airforce guys.....why is that such a hard thing to comprehend......it's common sense... I'm going to repeat myself again.....I did not say this aircraft is not suitable for this project, in fact several hundred aircraft are suitable....The C-27J aircraft was the one the airforce and SAR techs had chosen as their favorite....but you act as if they are not able to conduct testing or develop an opinion.....this file has been open for 14 years, not counting the appox 5 years before that when they starting to look into replacement aircraft......some where along the line one would think they could have checked things out....But all that research all that testing, all that expertise was thrown out the window ....by whom....by the money guy.....because is opinion would trump all of that.....Now that might make sense in your part of the world.....by why even involve the military if the money guy is going to pick anyways....

I have not once said I have done any SAR work......nor was a SAR tech, but I have seen people hurt and dead because of political purchases, and if that some how hurts your ego, or your perceived knowledge on military matters , I frankly don't give a rats ass... .........But if your going to sit there and tell all of us that these planes were "not" looked at by SAR TECHS and the AIRFORCE, and they did not express an opinion then sir....your a lair..... Is this how you debate....when you can not answer the question, you turn to personal attacks.....sounds like a couple of other posters I once knew.....

That was not the question.....the question was what was the best aircraft for the job.....and who within DND picked it and why did they pick it......and why has that advice been thrown out the window....like it always is.....this aircraft is a political choice nothing more....you make it out to be about dollars and sense....and throw out any info that says other wise....it has nothing to do with the best aircraft, it has everything to do with off sets, and lower price....and yet not price comparison have been made available. DND does not need a procurement cell , it has got the liberals who are experts and all knowing.....they can tell at a glance what is need and how much.....all while bending DND over the table....and whispering in their ear , you better smile for the media .....or you'll get some more of this.....and then telling the public all is good , see what we bought...nice, shiny...these are not the driods your looking for......

So you do have SAR experience....great, tell the room what are some of the SAR aircrafts taskings going to be.....wait , you still have not researched it yet have you....i'll wait.... Experts , what experts....the liberal cabinet, the money guys what experts are you talking about...you and SmallC.....i'd like to know who knows better than the guys that originally seen all the aircraft in the line up and choose the C-27J......guys like SAR techs, and the airforce.....i'd be curious to know you trumps them.....dollars to donuts it is the money guy...

No , not a victim, more of a guy trying to learn of your plight....maybe learn a few things or two.....but that's not where this is going ....this is "you" who needs to yell or vent at some English person....any English person will do....because some how some one from NB is responsible for all your problems.....and to be blunt.....I don't give a rats ass....I have my own problems, in my own province.... From listening to you separation is only a matter of time.....great good luck with that.... I hope that Quebec does not separate....but that's out of my hands, so I don't lay in bed and lose sleep over it.....I will tell you if it does happen , it will be a major source of disruption, and discourse within Canada, our dollar will fall, as will our trade, our debt will grow, etc etc....Canada reputation will take a hit on the world markets....but hey you'll have your own country that is what you want....that may or may have the same borders as it does today, everything will be sunshine and rainbows....and we will all live happily ever after...........and 50 years from now no one will even remember that we were once one undivided country..... good luck with finding your next English person to torture.....it has been nice....

So it did happen LH did put it on the table.....then with drew it.....we have been operating C-130H on the east coast and sometimes in the west for years.....and after 14 years it is to expensive.....enough so to move the project to completion not really .....well not for 14 years any ways...... You know as well as I do no one from the public has seen the 40 year forecast......you know the one that is legally required for all major purchases.....and if you have one for 20 years I have not seen that either.....atleast one that compares all the aircraft that made a bid...

Lockheed did original submit a modified C-130J, maybe something similar to the US coast Guard variant, LH said it would drop out of the race due to unfair purchasing practices of the Canadian government .....IE the F-35 be eliminated with out due process.....or competition.....not dealing with a nation that has unfair or a dishonest purchasing program is not having a hissy fit it is called good business..... And in reality it would have meant less cost due to parts, sims, training, foot print, logistics tail, but shit.....what does the military know.....nothing because nobody has seen the 40 year forecast yet......the proof is in the proof baby......That and it is law is it not......once again it looks like a fast track or end round by the liberals trying to close files and promises....without doing it the right way......you know what i'm talking about , most liberals cried and cried , even kicking their feet....because the Cons had not produced the right numbers.....Numbers designed to scare the public.......but now it's OK....showing the 40 year plan was stupid.....IT's law baby show us the numbers......

What does ferry range have to do with anything....that's with no load or cargo.....not much good on a SAR call without no load is it....put some weight in the plane and you'll see the range drops a lot......what is the range with max payload anyways...... Neither are you or smallc but it has not stopped the both of you.....but once again your sticking up for however choose this plane because they can do no wrong..... over the experts with in DND, and the only point you can come up with is price.....but how can be...All the aircraft have not been priced out to 40 years.....and hear I thought that was law....or have the liberals changed that......

This is going round and round ......Why did the Military want the C-27J and why.....was it just because they liked the colors it came in, maybe it was the free lunch.....then ask this question why the C295......or do you have some insider information.....that your not saying...why the experts advice was not taken....

Yes because Canada has taken great care of our military by equipping it with the latest and greatest equipment available..... it has kept their numbers at a whooping 65,000 personal, that could take Toronto on a good day.....of course that's not saying much , it is Toronto after all....and our military has a long history of plotting coups and such things...... The military is not the threat that you paint it to be.....it does not have aspirations of taken over the country....with 65,000 people, or just under 9000 combat troops.... And nobody has said the military should not have oversight, but that is not what we have what we have is micro managing to the extreme, making it almost impossible to get anything done.....but don't take my word on it, check the media for retiring generals and see what they have to say......

Have you researched any SAR exericises......NON Argument you don't know what your talking about.....SAR exericises these type of response all the time......and why is that.....And yes a response would involve as many depts as possiable.....just trying to think what depts would have short take off aircraft with the range to get to a remote area such as the north.....and what if the remote area does not have a landing area long enough to handle hercs....then what ...well there is LAPES drops or para drops.....not the best way to deliver equipment but it can be done....the best way is to have a plane land and off load it....but what in the hell do I know.....

I did not say this aircraft was inadequate for the job, what I did say was this aircraft is not as good as the C-27J, and if you had read my posts in a lot more areas than just payload, ....just for the record the C-27J was the number one choice by the Air force....you know the guys that fly them, it was also the number one pick by the SAR tech community....good fu**ing figure........they are the experts in the field......Now here is the tough question.....what is you qualifications , are you a pilot of a SAR aircraft....do you do SAR for a living....Next question, who has these qualifications with the government.....I mean someone must know something about this topic to disregard the militaries top choice.....maybe taken a ride in a plane once, seen a SAR aircraft at an air show once....maybe even talked to a SAR tech....WOW that would be enough...... Army Guy is just relaying that info that the airforce has made available to everyone......and now asking questions as to why not the airforces model.....the C-27J.....Price keeps coming up and yet no one has released any comparisons at all, nor have they release the 40 year costing that is required by law....this purchase was rammed down our throats because the Super hornet deal had seen the Liberals caught red handed trying to sole source them.....the same shit the cons tried and failed .....the C-27J was not chosen because Justin did not like it.....and because he is an expert on these matters.... keeping in mind I did the same when it was the cons in power as well.....Now i'm labeled a whinner,or complainer ...... just so happens this whinner has dragged young Canadians off the battle field, with injuries that are horrific in nature ....all because of poor choices made by our civilian government in the world of purchasing.... because it was cheaper, or made in a certain place, or they liked it because of the many offsets it provided.....not once was the life of Canadian soldiers taken into consideration as the prime reason to buy something......And over time you develop this attitude.....Many of you say you support the military, except when it comes down to money and funding....then it is fuc* them.....then don't need shit.....Ya I see all the eyes drop to the ground , you start kicking some dirt around with your feet....because you know it is true....I've earned my right to complain or whine.....I have paid my taxes just like you do......Don't like it then don't respond to my posts.....That is my rant for the day....

You seem to think that all SAR consists of is a plane a couple of SAR techs and they are good to go, and while that may be true if they are responding to a single engine aircraft loss , but the load rating s come into play when there is a multi engine aircraft loss in a remote engine.....with dozens or several hundred people on board....Now a few SAR techs are just not enough, lets complicate it even more and say it is in the winter.....Now dozens of SAR techs will need to respond, they will also need generators, tents, heaters, skidoo's , equipment to build a larger runway to bring in larger aircraft such as the Hercs. So you need a smaller aircraft capable of hauling larger loads into short temporary airfields to get set up and to assist with evac of wounded passengers......This is where the Buff and twin otter came in...... The Buffalo has been used in many other taskings other than SAR, as well....just because it is painted bright yellow does not preclude it from doing other missions......while in the artic on Op hurricane they had a Buffalo running fuel drums to remote airfields in the high north......it also delivers cargo when needed to northern communities when it is critical, all sorts of none SAR related tasks..... This is exactly why civilians should not have input on military purchases.....if the government wants to control purchases control the funding aspect.....here is your funding go buy something........this is why DND advice is so important as they are the experts in field... WHY did the air force want the C-27J, nobody knows because nobody cares......

On the other hand there is no evidence that this aircraft is capable of do the job.....as we have not seen any of the tests results or 40 year forecasts....

Cheaper does not make it the best aircraft for the job....does it....and besides how would we know what each contract was worth, we have yet to see any 40 year prices and comparisons.....so how do we make a informed decision.....how do we know that the liberals just purchases this aircraft for it's own agenda....we dont' do we.....Have you ever asked your self "WHY" did the military want this specific aircraft.....was it the SAR guys that fell in love with it because it was all of that and more..... because you got your feelings hurt, big deal....business is business.....they had something we wanted....and because someones got punch in the hurt locker, will cross that product off the list...... As for the F-35 I guess we see it from different sides of the story.....I see it as a political mistake....a man trying to act like he knew all about the program.....and had made a decision even before he was briefed on it as PM.......and did not want to look bad.....now that is a good reason to turn down a product....because I said so that's why....it is the same....reason....LM did not want any of the hassles of trying to sell Canada anything after it got dumped for no reason at all from our 9 bil fighter project.....well not for no reason because it was a con project....and the PM did not like it..... There are thousands of aircraft that could be considered capable aircraft.....and we did buy one......just not the one the military wanted...you know the experts in the field....but what do they know .....and we wonder why we have so much problems with procurement in Canada....not just with the military but right across the board......

I did not say you could not debate, but that is not what you are doing you are pointing your anger at all English persons as if we were the ones that have done all you have said the English have done....My father grew up in , Montreal, area, in Verdun....it used to be an English area , not any more, but he does not share your anger....things change my point is your anger is coming out in your posts....and it is putting people on the defensive.....it is not debating but just you yelling...... The current government is not of my choosing....just one more assumption you have about English people, I voted conservative....on the last election....and just for the record, the current PM is Justin trudeau he is from Quebec, and he is a Frenchmen.....like you....he just does not share your views...at least not openly to the public....Why would it not become a number one priority to keep Canada together.....you seem to have this impression of the English want you guys out of our great nation.....but it is not true...most of us know the bill that it would cost if Quebec was to separate.....major comprise would have to come from both sides....IE on debt, who gets what, as in portions of the military, coast guard, rcmp...etc etc...and land brigde from the east to the west....which was a sticky point last referendum. a million questions would need to be answered and put into law....before Quebec would see a border change....not going to happen over night it would take years, before action could be settled and generations to finally ironed out..... Are you saying that the Acadians were not French men and women from France at one time that you share a common back ground with .....and yet over time they have separated from true Quebecois in Quebec.... and become something different Acadians, who do not think of themselves as Quebecois but rather Acadians whos' loyality lies with France....not Quebec....... , and as I have said before many of the French people from Quebec that I've talked to, don't even consider Acadians French.....and if all this is the case why do you care if PEI has only a few French schools....or NS had very little , they are after all Acadians....not true Frenchmen from Quebec.... I think it is just one more excuse for the French in Quebec to whine about..... I would hope so....one your population base is a lot larger than that of NB, plus the fact that French is required to work in most places in Quebec....not so much in NB....French is required in French towns and villages, plus most government jobs, federal or provincial ....the fact remains that in NB there is no fighting over languages, we have for the most part worked with French and English to make things work.....And if it can happen in NB where we don't have 1/1000 of your resources....then i'm sure things can work out between French and English in the rest of Canada.....Learning another language is popular in NB, in 2009 the school system had tried a 50/50 school year, for half the year everything in school would be French, the other half English.....it failed, but it was not brought in gradually.....families could not help with school work because parents did not understand enough French....the kids picked it up slowly and by the end of that school year were doing alright....but the program was canceled, and we returned to a French immersion program....which is still popular....I think learning a second language is important, is that second language to be French....not sure, here in New Bruswick sure, nut in alberta, sask, I think I would be studing Chinese, Russian, or something else.... This is what I mean....I have not tried to erase anything French from this country.....you imply that all English Canadians are doing this.....and yet most of our nations leaders have come from Quebec.....and are French....and some how the war is still ongoing.....I wish Quebec would see the same thing....the war is over , you lost....the English won....that was many many many moons ago....today we are one country with one flag.....that both French and Englishmen and women have stood up for and fought under the same flag, not once but 4 times....we have said to the world "WE ARE CANADIANS" and we will stand up for this country and all of her commitments, here and abroad.....................now that might not mean anything to you.....but it does to mean....and im sure it means a lot to the proud French members of the Vandoos, 2 RBC, and the rest of the French units that have served this nation with honor..... You might want to take a look at your history books, Labrador was given to NFLD in 1809.....in 1927 that was the year that the borders were being disputed by Quebec.....And while Quebec may be right the border may not be were it once was, Quebec has grown in other ways during this times as well, a lot of Ruputs land was given to Quebec to administer as well. besides how many people does it effect....that far up north.....is really something Quebec can not live with out.....and your right charging NFLD a fair price would have been reasonable......But that's not what happen is it.....that is why NFLD in 65 years will have made 1 bil....while Quebec manged to make 18 bil....is that a fair price....for a poor province...one of the poorest at the time.....and if it was so fair....why is NFLD now building under sea cable to transfer power to NLFD then on to NS.....at the cost of 22 bil, is it because Quebec treated them fairly....or because they got a raw deal ....and now Quebec will get 0 of the new power generation plants electricity. I'm not ready to spill any French Canadians blood, for me that would be the worst day of any Canadian lives.....to fight our brothers in arms...would be a sad day......but then again I do not make the rules nor do I make the decisions in this country........but if comprise of both sides does not work, then it may have to be settled in other ways.........the last referendum , do you think that the CF-18 from Quebec were sent on exericise by mistake in the US, once they arrived they're aircraft were grounded, under US guards......do you also think that most of 5 brigade was sent to New York state for exericise as well and they were not allowed to leave those bases.....do you think that was because Canada was afraid of what might happen in Quebec, that they were not willing to take some precautions by removing French military forces out of Quebecs area, so Canada does not lose control of them...................why was 2 Brigade put on alert, all leave canceled, soldiers put on readiness alert.....it had to have a reason....but why.....because the military option was there if need be.....so as much as i'd like to say they will be no armed forces that enter into Quebec ....after a separation vote...to secure interests of Canada.....I do not make the decisions here in Canada....nor do I know what is going to happen....but there are options....

No, I'm sure it is you.....and we are not counting when you were learning to drive, anyways you'll always be my favorite.....

Has anyone heard of the new maintence contract as part of the purchase.....

why don't you do some research on SAR exericises in the past....they regularly exercises responding to a large aircraft crash in a remote region.......how many people on a 747 anyway....you think you might get away with treating all those people with a pup tent and a few band aids....not to mention heaters, generators, canvas, skidoos, equipment to prepare runways for larger aircraft.....better yet research what our SAR techs do....and what equipment they have to do it....then tell me how do they get all that shit from airforce bases to remote regions..... It's not about the liberals .....hey kudos for closing the file.....but why go through all this effort if your not going to get it right the first time.....it's about getting the right equipment for the job....I know it is a alien concept to you.....but try it sometime.....

Your right SmallC it is the C295W my bad....as I have already suggested the price difference would be migrated by a common parts shared with the C-130J fleet, such as engines, and many other parts...by reducing the logistic footprint, and initial purchase of spares already in the military system.... They might have been arrogant....when telling us, they would not support ex US aircraft. but we were going to buy airplanes off of them, not take them to bed.....if they have a product we wanted , one that would service our needs....why not..... I don't hear you talking about why lockmart pulled out their offer, when our prime minister told the world we would not be buying the F-35.....Lockheed offered to provide a specialized SAR version of the C-130J....if I was in Lockmart shoes I would think that was a little arrogant , but we still do business with them on a daily basis....go figure... That is the go to statement for all liberals.....it was DND fault because they were dishonest.....how a source....to back up that claim.....maybe , just maybe they wanted equipment that would go the distance....and do the job when you get there.

Not sure what sources your using , I used airbus, and C-27J sites.....here is what I found.... Max speed for C-27J was 602 Km/H while the max speed for C295W was 576 kM/H , but wait a min......the cruising speeds get even better....for the C-27J cruises at 583 KM/H while the C295W cruises at just 480 KM/H .....cruising speeds are what the aircraft normally fly at.....and the difference is almost 100 KM/H.....not 11 as you suggested..... Payloads for the C-27J are 25,353 lbs vice C295W which is only 20,400 a difference of 5000 lbs.....why do we mention payloads...well there is more than just throwing a couple of SAR techs out the back.....the aircraft is used for all SAR duties hauling supplies/ materials etc... to and from a remote air crash, or what ever , along with picking up mass causalities from the site...5000 lbs could mean more people to evac.....so it does make a difference....it also means 5000 lbs more equipment hauled to the site.....such as skidoo's, medical tents, and equipment, more SAR techs.....the main difference is the C295W the floors in the the C295W are not reinforced to handle heavy cargo or vehs.....Kind of important..... Not only can it carry more it can carry it farther.....range is something you have to look at..... Not to mention SAR aircraft can be tasked with other missions, just as the others( Buffalo and hercs) where, artic re-supply of remote airstrips, med evac to remote artic areas, assisting other military pers in other artic operations.....such as OP Hurricane , replacing the back up batteries for the phone lines.....So there is more to their mission than you may think..... my other criticisms included the C-27J shares a lot of common parts with the C-130J.....hence a much cheaper, and manageable logistics tail....which would make up for the initial price tag difference over the bil years we keep them....Over all they make up some large differences.....important differences.... Why do you think the Airforce wanted the C-27J in the first place.....But what the F*** do they know, other than they fly those missions everyday, how many does the federal government fly again.....let me tell you ZERO.....they don't fly, the don't perform SAR missions, they know squat when it comes to SAR....and the info they think they know has been given to them by the military......shit I read a book about space flight once doesn't make me an astronaut does it.....