Army Guy

The evidence is clearly laid out for you if you read the NRC SOR, which I provided.........it states the reasons for re writing the specs, it does so by line item by line item.....Show me where it states as you have said it was DND writing the specs for the C-27J......which is not true....at all.... each standard is clearly defined....and when they changed them they stated why.......the main reason or reason that was used repeatedly was DND kept refering to Standards of SAR service...which were laided out, and written by DND, since DND does not write Government policy, all those requirements listed "to ensure this level of service is required " were denied....for no other reason other than DND wrote those specs.....That those specs are to high.... Yes your right ...unless we are talking F-35.....the contracts are almost the same while they may be off by a couple hundred thousand but they are close enough for comparison....

No i'm not getting your point......What was said is each aircraft is built to have a minimum safety standard.....some companies have said those are not good enough we want to surpass the minimum standard.....so each plane is not of the same safety standard....but each plane does meet the minimum standard big fuc*ing deal......unless you have proof that the C-295 meets or exceeds the same safety standard as the C-27J, what is your point.....all the other capabilities see the C-27J in front....with exception of one price.....

And I have said before, it is a good thing that any government has took this file and done something with it....But the liberals seen this as a political opportunity and seized it....they wanted nothing to do with the C-27J , because it already had a target marked on its back......The rewriting of DND specs had nothing to do with the C-27J, in fact I have already posted the reasons they changed the specs....nothing is mentioned about the C-27J.....it also states there was More than one aircraft that would have passed the specs....the C295 was not one of them..... They go as far as stating that DND's SAR policies and specs are not backed up by governmental policy, that that level of service does not have to be followed and is nul and void....there for all those conditions that are set by DND are also nul and void.....after reading the source I provided you still have no flashing lights going off in your head.....then your right.....and im wrong....our government will go to any length it has to go to get its way.....including rewriting SAR policy, and standards...now it won't go up, it will not surpass DND's standards because that would mean the C-295 would not be picked....it means the quality of SAR service is going to go down..... It also does not preclude the building of new SAR bases in the north, so range and speed requirements are not lost forever......which costs have not been included in any costing yet... One more point to mention Australia purchased 10 C-27 J for 1.4 Bil dollars in 2012.....lets assume we still wanted 16 the cost would be just over 2.6 is a rough estimate....Not the double the cost as you said....in fact pretty comparable ....

This for you squid because you can't be bother to read all the posts....this was in reponse to Eyeball....and his above comment...thanks for keeping up....

I'm not sure why we are talking safety , or what you are going on about......I have said clearly more than once.....Canada sets minimum safety standards for aircraft.....it does not mean that aircraft can not be built to higher standards....IN regards to safety....not sure what you gold toilet has to do with anything...but I see this as a distraction on your part because it seems like you did not know what your talking about.....

No it does not guarantee anything, but 90 % of time it does....most of the time better does mean it cost more.....

WTF are you talking about.....DND has no funding....taxpayers give their money to the government...the government then divides up the funding by dept.....hence DND annual Budget....which some of it is used for purchases.....like I said ALL government purchases over 25 K must go through PWSG......they buy, they decide, DND prays iot gets something close to what it wants..... But that is not so for all depts.... And lets not go there is only so much funding.....Liberals piss away 30 bil....that came out of who's ass exactly.....with plans for spending another 30 bil....not enough for SAR aircraft.. come on......

You mean they have passed a minimum standard , that there can be aircraft that are safer than others, built to a higher degree of detail.....

When an Inuit boy named Burton Winters became lost in a blizzard on the sea-ice off Labrador in January 2012, all three search-and-rescue planes in Atlantic Canada were — for mechanical reasons — unable to deploy to search for him. The 14-year-old died from hypothermia before a search-and-rescue helicopter was finally sent, more than two days after he went missing. http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/michael-byers-stewart-webb-passing-the-buck-on-search-and-rescue http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/a-year-after-tragedy-search-and-rescue-doubts-persist-1.1319865

SO what your saying is having a AWC does not make all the aircraft the same, what your saying is they meet the minimum standard.....and some aircraft are built beyond that, or have much more options included......don't have to be bigger to cost more....

Buts that the way you just made it sound.....was it not Shit happens.....money was the difference of life and death in this case was it not..... Why don't you check that little tid bit in goggle, it was not that long ago....in fact it has been used as an example in this very competition.....

Are you saying that both aircraft are built to the same specs, that one is not safer, or built better, or uses better materials....what you are saying is they are indentical , only difference is price.

Argus, look at the lengths they are will to go to prove their point.....DND SOR had nothing to do with writing it to the C-27J......look at the reasons NRC gave to say it was to restraining...... Shit they are even willing to say they are willing to lower the level of SAR service to make this happen, because the government has not specified or written a policy, and due to lack of policy DND wrote their own....hello, I guess you can't do that.....so the SOR does not have to live up to DND policy....there for those standards are void....

Should tell that, to that young boy that froze to death on the northern ice pack, when SAR could not get to him for 2 days after he froze ...because of lack of serviceable SAR air craft... I wonder if that was what the PM told his parents...shit happens, get over it.....or did he say we sorry our SAR aircraft are over 30 years old, we should have purchased new ones 14 years ago....But we are retards....

this is bullshit.....everything is not made to the same standard, and as with anything you get what you pay for......buy a $20 life jacket, that will keep you afloat for 1 hour....or $400 for one that will never sink....which one do you buy for you family....both are life jackets , both do the same job, any one will do, when it comes down to safety inspection....hell take 2 of the good ones and a cheap one for the mother in law.... When it comes to safety, one has to spend a little more.....we do that when it comes to school buses, public transport etc...we demand it meets or exceeds a certain level of safety....regardless of cost.....one exception....the Canadian public does not get it's titties in a knot when it comes down to which brand of school bus is being purchased, nor does the Government make that choice for political reasons....That is reserved for the Military...cause them bastards can't be trusted....don't know why....just don't trust them shifty eyed some bitches.....

DID they really doctor the specs....or did NRC doctor the specs..... http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs/fixed-wing-search-rescue-aircraft-2010.page HMM someone said something about specs....who was that.....The new SAR aircraft was to be able to provide Canadians with an equal service that is provided today....more on this later..... We can not compare them to aircraft already existing....because new aircraft should be able to outperform 30 year old aircraft one would assume....NO not the case....they need to instead reflect on the new SAR capabilities sought by the government of Canada in terms of SAR services to Canadians.......and NOT SAR services that are currently provided by DND.....But they do not lay all that out do they..... SO range of the aircraft is no longer important, neither is speed or response time.....SAR no longer has to rush....good to know.....the others are not tough requirements are they...... NRC even went father than that they added their own requirements.....that DND did not mention or listed as a lower priority.....for you conservatives out there ....that's because DND just flies them....what do they know about what to ask for, and in what priority they might need it in...... Oh forgot.......this is what NRC says....A capability-based rather than platform-centric SOR would allow for more flexibility in developing proposed solutions. It is concluded that the SOR is over-constrained to the extent that very few compliant solutions are possible......it does not say that the requirements are written for the C-27J....they do mention that very few aircraft rate as contenders.....so there was more than one....."well fick me" SO before DND wrote the Specs.....there was no Government policy on what SAR was to provide to Canadians....so in absence of policy DND made one...stupid bastards.....what do they know.....Now our government is saying WOW, we didn't have a policy, how dare those DND guys write their own....lets make a new one....so we don't look bad.... it does not need to be to this level.....WHY not.....if the old planes are 30 years old and doing the job to DND standards, why can't a new aircraft do the same thing......Because very few aircraft can.....so we have to lower the standards.....so we can buy the cheaper aircraft....save money, save political faces, make it look like we are good and DND bad.....

What the hell did you expect them to say.....who does DND work for again....the battle is over, the contract announced , DND lost again it is time to smile and eat shit once again......but then again you don't see that...... DND wrote the specs, for what they wanted in their next aircraft.....PWSG said it was not broad enough...it favored one aircraft....meaning the C295 according to the airforce was not up to the cut.....not happy with that they had the specs rewritten by another dept that knows what about SAR again....to loosen the specs....and it was not decided on specs anyways, it was price.....and political reasons...

When are you going to wake UP.....The Military does not procure anything on it's own unless it is under 25,000 k........The military is only responsible for writing the specs and providing advice to the civilian buyers...(.PWSG.).... DND is responsible for testing and researching of equipment chosen by PWSG.....the final choice is made by the current government to which equipment is purchased........so if DND is just in charge of specs, providing advice on tech advice ,maintence , parts , ammo packages for the contract, and testing....nothing to do with purchasing .....should I say it again.....nothing to do with purchasing.....which leaves PWSG, and the government that do the buying.....are you getting it now.....DND does not BUY anything.....it may express an opinion during the testing phase....but that opinion is generally disregarded......SO please explain to me how DND ficks all that up.....Your don't think the government is going to take the fall do you.....but hey if it makes you sleep better go ahead....blame DND, or maybe here is a thought do some research... Back to square one....Nobody said give DND a blank cheque, they could set a limit or dollar amount as they do anyway.....and let DND purchase within that, what possible reason would you care what equipment DND bought if it was within the agree purchase levels, or is it your civil duty to make sure DND buys only equipment you approve of.......or better yet.....take a look at the purchase system as a whole and redesign it so it works.....novel idea.....

You don't see a problem with your statement.....let me spell it out for you.....DND wrote the specs....Procurement did not like them.....accused DND of writing them to the C-27J, but could not prove it........they complain, because DND and procurement have this history of getting along.......the complaint is received by our federal government, who decides they to don't like the specs DND wrote either they do not fit in with any of the federal political plans...Now instead of telling DND to rewrite the specs, "they look like they were written to one aircraft only and break the procurement riles" , then discipline whom ever was in charge of spec writing this for DND for breaking said rules ...not what happened......they spin the giant wheel in the PM office and it lands on NRC office...."who knows very little about SAR aircraft, but more than the average politician"..... nobody see the problem here....

You missed the entire point ....but then again your not listening anyways.... You have developed a distrust for the military why?....and why do you trust the government officials more , when they have constantly shown that they can not be trusted, in scandal over scandal......with their hands in the cookie jar....And yet these are the same people you want guarding the hen house...... Military dictatorship....your funny.....because our military would be capable of such a thing.....what do we do send one guy to every town and city and demand you surrender....way to funny....did you forget this was Canada....and our Military has never had anything but your best interests in mind ....but some how you think it is this demon we should keep locked up.....in the cellar..... That is not democracy that is blind faith in our government which is dangerous......true democracy is having trust and faith in our institutions because they have earned that trust and faith through hard and honest work....,that has not happened in a long while....

Are you suggesting that only liberals pay taxes.....or that they are the only ones that work hard for their money....Not everyone shares the liberal train of thought here, in fact not all liberals think they way you do either, but screw them to, they do not count..........What happened here was this was a political purchase, to bolster support for the liberal party, and maximize the off sets available to certain regions of the country. Then they have the balls to call it a 15 bil commitment to our Military....when it was a compromise nothing more....they were forced to make the purchase....but totally ignored the advice and testing given to them by the military ....the end user...and went instead in a total different direction......Just like every other purchase they have made since our military has stood up.....nice the track record.....and when asked Why is it you distrust the military so much....you can't seem to find the answer.....you demand civilian over sight by our elected government officials.....who have proven over and over again.....that they are the ones stuffing their pockets with our the tax payers money.....and they are the ones we want overseeing the hen house ....good call, must be a liberal thing.....

My analogy is bang on, you and others discuss what is good enough as if the government did just that bought a toaster....without any consideration to the people who will operate them , or lives that may be saved by them.....the main and prime reasoning behind your debating tech is and was MONEY...nothing else was looked at or discuss..... And lets just stop a minute , and clarify a few things.....everyone of those serving our forces today pay taxes....and they work there asses off everyday just like you claim, and still they have no voice........and while they may not risk their lives everyday in the service of their country.........those SAR techs and aircrew that perform this task for all Canadians might and I said might have earned the right to have their voices heard....at least in my books....they don't strike for more pay or better equipment, DND is on duty 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.....it has not failed once to respond to Canadians needs, nor has it refused to go any where it was needed foreign and domestic... Not sure what the military did to you or your kin....but with all the Bils the liberals have already pissed away, not to mention all the bils that have been cut from DND budget and never returned...all to service our debt....or to pay for some wild ideas.....and in doing so all that happened was purchases were put away placed in buy in better times file.....well times are not better but the equipment is falling apart....and now the liberals have got caught hold the basket....and it is time to pay the piper.....here we have a chance to do this right or doing it on the cheap....

well unless my math is wrong....it is not 40 years is it....First aircraft is no on the ground until 2019 right......and it has been costed until 2052.......that is only 33 years by NB math....not sure what it is in Manitoba math......and correct me if i'm wrong the liberals did announce already the entire project would only cost at max 4.2 bil.....and today we are looking at 14.7 not including 7 more years as required by law.....right....and you talk like I am the one that made this law......but the law is a law.....and the liberals have not lived up with that have they.....What happened to sunny fuc*ing ways......not so sunny now ....when the shoe is on the other foot.....so if we went out to 40 years that would be what 16 or 17 bil big difference, but then again they just went ahead a purchased the aircraft before any debate could happen within the country......Smart move on the liberals....but once again that is not the transparency we were promised was it.... I get it the law sucks , it is retarded.....but it was also what the people wanted.....fo 14.7 bil dollars I would at least want a plane I could stand up in.....but liberal experts know better.....

one would think , and i'm just guess here, but when someone life is one the line, I tend to put more importance on the purchase, I also would be willing to spend a bit more....of course I am not you, and this is not your sons car..... it is a SAR aircraft who's main mission is to save lives.....the military or the guys who use the aircraft on a daily basis recommended the C-27J.....because of many reasons.....and like every purchase before it...."if the military likes something stay away from it" shit they even tried to trick us those stupid bastards.....don't they know we are not going to buy something they picked out....not sure why...just a old rule....we call it civil over sight..... Now if the Military had been stuffing their pockets with tax payers money for their own use.....we as the citizens of this country might have a reason to distrust our military......but that is not what happen here was it.....No the military has been accused of the most heinous crime.....wanting a piece of equipment that was better than the cheapest piece, wanting a piece of equipment that might save lives.....give them an edge on the battle field or in doing their job.......there is a reason for that but forget that....why do we forget that.....because for some reason Canadians see our military as untrust worthy, always wanting something.....there always planning to take over the world....or maybe just Canada, not sure , they may be aliens........... and for that reason DND is not trusted by the citizens of Canada......and it requires full civilian over sight....or direct control by our elected government ....because it is demanded by the people.... Bullshit when has our military been a threat to this country or it's citizens.....when has it ever not been there when you needed them.....SO why the mistrust ?..... And yet how times have we heard on the media of our elected officials stealing, misusing, tax payers funding....how many have used tax payers dollars for their own benefit , or comfort.....and these are the people you demand to have over sight over DND ....does that make sense....do you see where I am going with this....kind of making the fox watch the hen house then blaming the chickens when something goes wrong......how smart is that.....that sir is Canadian smart. you discuss this like we where going out to buy a toaster....the cheapest one will do....and yet this equipment is being used to save lives....still brushed away....saving money is the main issue here.....everything else does not count for squat.....one day you and others may have your sons and daughters strapping themselves into this equipment, going to risk there lives in what you have decided or declared good enough.....like you would when you bought a toaster.....it is because you have nothing invested in that decision.....no skin in the game.....

What are you saying ...it was you that compared DND to a your 16 year old son...was it not.....If they were not stealing or misusing tax payers money what have they done to deserve the things you've posted.....wanting better equipment for your soldiers is a bad thing, this act has cost DND the trust of the public.........stealing tax payers money is a good thing and has earned politicians the right to do it over and over again, plus earned the public respect to over see the military on everything they do.......