Army Guy

My analogy is bang on, you and others discuss what is good enough as if the government did just that bought a toaster....without any consideration to the people who will operate them , or lives that may be saved by them.....the main and prime reasoning behind your debating tech is and was MONEY...nothing else was looked at or discuss..... And lets just stop a minute , and clarify a few things.....everyone of those serving our forces today pay taxes....and they work there asses off everyday just like you claim, and still they have no voice........and while they may not risk their lives everyday in the service of their country.........those SAR techs and aircrew that perform this task for all Canadians might and I said might have earned the right to have their voices heard....at least in my books....they don't strike for more pay or better equipment, DND is on duty 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.....it has not failed once to respond to Canadians needs, nor has it refused to go any where it was needed foreign and domestic... Not sure what the military did to you or your kin....but with all the Bils the liberals have already pissed away, not to mention all the bils that have been cut from DND budget and never returned...all to service our debt....or to pay for some wild ideas.....and in doing so all that happened was purchases were put away placed in buy in better times file.....well times are not better but the equipment is falling apart....and now the liberals have got caught hold the basket....and it is time to pay the piper.....here we have a chance to do this right or doing it on the cheap....

well unless my math is wrong....it is not 40 years is it....First aircraft is no on the ground until 2019 right......and it has been costed until 2052.......that is only 33 years by NB math....not sure what it is in Manitoba math......and correct me if i'm wrong the liberals did announce already the entire project would only cost at max 4.2 bil.....and today we are looking at 14.7 not including 7 more years as required by law.....right....and you talk like I am the one that made this law......but the law is a law.....and the liberals have not lived up with that have they.....What happened to sunny fuc*ing ways......not so sunny now ....when the shoe is on the other foot.....so if we went out to 40 years that would be what 16 or 17 bil big difference, but then again they just went ahead a purchased the aircraft before any debate could happen within the country......Smart move on the liberals....but once again that is not the transparency we were promised was it.... I get it the law sucks , it is retarded.....but it was also what the people wanted.....fo 14.7 bil dollars I would at least want a plane I could stand up in.....but liberal experts know better.....

one would think , and i'm just guess here, but when someone life is one the line, I tend to put more importance on the purchase, I also would be willing to spend a bit more....of course I am not you, and this is not your sons car..... it is a SAR aircraft who's main mission is to save lives.....the military or the guys who use the aircraft on a daily basis recommended the C-27J.....because of many reasons.....and like every purchase before it...."if the military likes something stay away from it" shit they even tried to trick us those stupid bastards.....don't they know we are not going to buy something they picked out....not sure why...just a old rule....we call it civil over sight..... Now if the Military had been stuffing their pockets with tax payers money for their own use.....we as the citizens of this country might have a reason to distrust our military......but that is not what happen here was it.....No the military has been accused of the most heinous crime.....wanting a piece of equipment that was better than the cheapest piece, wanting a piece of equipment that might save lives.....give them an edge on the battle field or in doing their job.......there is a reason for that but forget that....why do we forget that.....because for some reason Canadians see our military as untrust worthy, always wanting something.....there always planning to take over the world....or maybe just Canada, not sure , they may be aliens........... and for that reason DND is not trusted by the citizens of Canada......and it requires full civilian over sight....or direct control by our elected government ....because it is demanded by the people.... Bullshit when has our military been a threat to this country or it's citizens.....when has it ever not been there when you needed them.....SO why the mistrust ?..... And yet how times have we heard on the media of our elected officials stealing, misusing, tax payers funding....how many have used tax payers dollars for their own benefit , or comfort.....and these are the people you demand to have over sight over DND ....does that make sense....do you see where I am going with this....kind of making the fox watch the hen house then blaming the chickens when something goes wrong......how smart is that.....that sir is Canadian smart. you discuss this like we where going out to buy a toaster....the cheapest one will do....and yet this equipment is being used to save lives....still brushed away....saving money is the main issue here.....everything else does not count for squat.....one day you and others may have your sons and daughters strapping themselves into this equipment, going to risk there lives in what you have decided or declared good enough.....like you would when you bought a toaster.....it is because you have nothing invested in that decision.....no skin in the game.....

What are you saying ...it was you that compared DND to a your 16 year old son...was it not.....If they were not stealing or misusing tax payers money what have they done to deserve the things you've posted.....wanting better equipment for your soldiers is a bad thing, this act has cost DND the trust of the public.........stealing tax payers money is a good thing and has earned politicians the right to do it over and over again, plus earned the public respect to over see the military on everything they do.......

Here I'll help you, Never....it has never happened....politicians have always chosen our military equipment , for all kinds of reasons, like it looks cool, I've always wanted one, it might create some jobs, great way to force foreign companies to invest in our country...... Ya I get the head room comment pretty silly ......imagine complaining about having to be bent over all day...while the civilian whiners have whined and sued , and claimed work mens comp over not having a mouse pad,at their work stations.... which lead to limp wrists....and turning into liberal fanboys.....not to mention these guys have to concentrate on searching for people in dire need with nothing more than cramped necks..... what a bunch of pussies.....can you imagine for another 5 dollars they could have bought the C-27J

Another example of members of DND doing what stuffing their pockets at the expense of Canadians, or where they trying to look after their people and get the best equipment available to them trying to save some lives......they worst crime ever......and yet government officals have stolen, taken, used tax payers money to line their own pockets and in the eyes of you and others they are beyond approach .....which baffles me to no end....how you can stretch reality of DND commanders doing something to better the service, save some lives, serve this country......to being irresponsible , not to be trusted , treated like a 16 year old.......but when a politician takes tax payers money and steals it, misuses it, pisses it away on some idea.....everything is normal in your world.....in fact your will to go on a public forum and defend their acts.....and slam the military, as no good, not trust worthy, only worthy of second rate, or in most cases cheapest bidder.....Thanks for the support, glad you have the backs of our military members serving or retired....

perhaps you can name a purchase that was entirely run and controlled by DND......perhaps you can state for the record, the last time DND advised they preferred a certain product and the government approved of it......Perhaps Defense spending would not be so overwhelming if you did so on a regular bases.....and not put it off for 30 years.....and now it is rusting out......and when you finally have to dig in your wallets you cry and cry, and cry....Damn Military.....they suck they want everything..... I wonder if the story would be the same to all you cheap bastards if it was you, or you sons and daughters strapping themselves into an F-18 or going sailing on one of our frigs, maybe flying a sea king....Don't worry though....your grand sons and daughters will also be given a chance to use the same equipment.....Canada is so tight, sparks fly from our asses.....it's a wonderful sight at night really it is....attracts tourist from around the world....Come in see the walking sparks show on ice.....

Once again your going to hang that whole fighter project around DND's neck.....like the liberals had nothing to do with interfering and introducing the new law that requires it be costed out to 40 years.....that's right the new law did nothing but cause sticker shock to most Canadians who know nothing on the procurement system and how it works but they do know a large number when they see it..... But speaking of that where is that costing for this project.....Missing.....why is that because the project would not be a simple 2.4 bil dollar project but rather close to 14 bil or higher....now that number will cause some concern.... but your not very vocal on discovering where your tax dollars are going now are you. Given Canada's historical purchasing background why would DND not seek out the best Aircraft available to us.....and then write the specs towards that tech that was being developed.....

because the Specs were already written twice , because they did not like the first one.....if your implying that DND has no say in the project please provide a source....as far as I know DND was the one that did all the testing, and research.....meaning they are heavily involved in the process.....

Well here an example of how most Canadians feel about the military.......like 16 year olds.......not to be trusted with multi bil contracts....Because they might buy something that will be to expensive......something that might save more lives....we won't have that.......perhaps a source where DND has been found guilty of putting tax payers money in their own pockets......NONE.....just a bunch of guys trying to get the best for their soldiers....what a fucking crime.....because the current government or previous government have proven themselves that are the best stewards with our tax dollars......they have never misused any tax moneys, and have never put any of it in to their pockets, or for their own use or comfort.....and yet we still allow them to continue on .....as if it was normal, but allow the Military to buy their own equipment ....are you out of your mind......

Really now your not happy with the way the specs were written.....they seemed to favor the wrong plane Martha.....after 14 years we are going to blame the specs....I'd like a source stating that DND has no longer a role to play in procurement......I get it it's the money guy that gets to write the specs , test each product, and choose.....what to buy....sounds about right...

what difference does the specs make....specs are develop by DND to give the money guys a chance to pick form available products out there, from there it goes back to DND for testing and evaluation.....DND submits its findings back to the money guys and the Cabinet.....they choose the equipment ...Not an expert amongst them.....all the testing and eval means squat.....what makes or breaks the decision is money, and off sets....it has nothing to do with picking the best equipment never is....

So I will repeat myself.....what is the point in spending millions on the testing , and research by the military. if 95 % of the time the money guy is going to pick....and when he does pick what are his first priorities , saving the crown money or providing a product that will do his job.....because he knows squat about the product...what he knows is dollars and cents....

Keep going, man this is getting to be to funny......pilots and SAR techs are not experts in aviation or SAR......I just wondering if these guys are not or chould not be consulted or involved in the testing who is ? the money guy...some politician.....who exactly......your ignorance in this subject is overwhelming.....

what are you 4 now.. stole dads log in.....and now your playing with the big boys.....come on squid....take your meds and come back to earth..... Like I have already said, I don't care what you think. No SAR techs do not procure planes.....but they would be consulted to what they were looking for in an aircraft, what would be useful and what would not be useful, they would also be involved in some of the testing.....right along side of the Airforce guys.....why is that such a hard thing to comprehend......it's common sense... I'm going to repeat myself again.....I did not say this aircraft is not suitable for this project, in fact several hundred aircraft are suitable....The C-27J aircraft was the one the airforce and SAR techs had chosen as their favorite....but you act as if they are not able to conduct testing or develop an opinion.....this file has been open for 14 years, not counting the appox 5 years before that when they starting to look into replacement aircraft......some where along the line one would think they could have checked things out....But all that research all that testing, all that expertise was thrown out the window ....by whom....by the money guy.....because is opinion would trump all of that.....Now that might make sense in your part of the world.....by why even involve the military if the money guy is going to pick anyways....

I have not once said I have done any SAR work......nor was a SAR tech, but I have seen people hurt and dead because of political purchases, and if that some how hurts your ego, or your perceived knowledge on military matters , I frankly don't give a rats ass... .........But if your going to sit there and tell all of us that these planes were "not" looked at by SAR TECHS and the AIRFORCE, and they did not express an opinion then sir....your a lair..... Is this how you debate....when you can not answer the question, you turn to personal attacks.....sounds like a couple of other posters I once knew.....

That was not the question.....the question was what was the best aircraft for the job.....and who within DND picked it and why did they pick it......and why has that advice been thrown out the window....like it always is.....this aircraft is a political choice nothing more....you make it out to be about dollars and sense....and throw out any info that says other wise....it has nothing to do with the best aircraft, it has everything to do with off sets, and lower price....and yet not price comparison have been made available. DND does not need a procurement cell , it has got the liberals who are experts and all knowing.....they can tell at a glance what is need and how much.....all while bending DND over the table....and whispering in their ear , you better smile for the media .....or you'll get some more of this.....and then telling the public all is good , see what we bought...nice, shiny...these are not the driods your looking for......

So you do have SAR experience....great, tell the room what are some of the SAR aircrafts taskings going to be.....wait , you still have not researched it yet have you....i'll wait.... Experts , what experts....the liberal cabinet, the money guys what experts are you talking about...you and SmallC.....i'd like to know who knows better than the guys that originally seen all the aircraft in the line up and choose the C-27J......guys like SAR techs, and the airforce.....i'd be curious to know you trumps them.....dollars to donuts it is the money guy...

No , not a victim, more of a guy trying to learn of your plight....maybe learn a few things or two.....but that's not where this is going ....this is "you" who needs to yell or vent at some English person....any English person will do....because some how some one from NB is responsible for all your problems.....and to be blunt.....I don't give a rats ass....I have my own problems, in my own province.... From listening to you separation is only a matter of time.....great good luck with that.... I hope that Quebec does not separate....but that's out of my hands, so I don't lay in bed and lose sleep over it.....I will tell you if it does happen , it will be a major source of disruption, and discourse within Canada, our dollar will fall, as will our trade, our debt will grow, etc etc....Canada reputation will take a hit on the world markets....but hey you'll have your own country that is what you want....that may or may have the same borders as it does today, everything will be sunshine and rainbows....and we will all live happily ever after...........and 50 years from now no one will even remember that we were once one undivided country..... good luck with finding your next English person to torture.....it has been nice....

So it did happen LH did put it on the table.....then with drew it.....we have been operating C-130H on the east coast and sometimes in the west for years.....and after 14 years it is to expensive.....enough so to move the project to completion not really .....well not for 14 years any ways...... You know as well as I do no one from the public has seen the 40 year forecast......you know the one that is legally required for all major purchases.....and if you have one for 20 years I have not seen that either.....atleast one that compares all the aircraft that made a bid...

Lockheed did original submit a modified C-130J, maybe something similar to the US coast Guard variant, LH said it would drop out of the race due to unfair purchasing practices of the Canadian government .....IE the F-35 be eliminated with out due process.....or competition.....not dealing with a nation that has unfair or a dishonest purchasing program is not having a hissy fit it is called good business..... And in reality it would have meant less cost due to parts, sims, training, foot print, logistics tail, but shit.....what does the military know.....nothing because nobody has seen the 40 year forecast yet......the proof is in the proof baby......That and it is law is it not......once again it looks like a fast track or end round by the liberals trying to close files and promises....without doing it the right way......you know what i'm talking about , most liberals cried and cried , even kicking their feet....because the Cons had not produced the right numbers.....Numbers designed to scare the public.......but now it's OK....showing the 40 year plan was stupid.....IT's law baby show us the numbers......

What does ferry range have to do with anything....that's with no load or cargo.....not much good on a SAR call without no load is it....put some weight in the plane and you'll see the range drops a lot......what is the range with max payload anyways...... Neither are you or smallc but it has not stopped the both of you.....but once again your sticking up for however choose this plane because they can do no wrong..... over the experts with in DND, and the only point you can come up with is price.....but how can be...All the aircraft have not been priced out to 40 years.....and hear I thought that was law....or have the liberals changed that......

This is going round and round ......Why did the Military want the C-27J and why.....was it just because they liked the colors it came in, maybe it was the free lunch.....then ask this question why the C295......or do you have some insider information.....that your not saying...why the experts advice was not taken....

Yes because Canada has taken great care of our military by equipping it with the latest and greatest equipment available..... it has kept their numbers at a whooping 65,000 personal, that could take Toronto on a good day.....of course that's not saying much , it is Toronto after all....and our military has a long history of plotting coups and such things...... The military is not the threat that you paint it to be.....it does not have aspirations of taken over the country....with 65,000 people, or just under 9000 combat troops.... And nobody has said the military should not have oversight, but that is not what we have what we have is micro managing to the extreme, making it almost impossible to get anything done.....but don't take my word on it, check the media for retiring generals and see what they have to say......

Have you researched any SAR exericises......NON Argument you don't know what your talking about.....SAR exericises these type of response all the time......and why is that.....And yes a response would involve as many depts as possiable.....just trying to think what depts would have short take off aircraft with the range to get to a remote area such as the north.....and what if the remote area does not have a landing area long enough to handle hercs....then what ...well there is LAPES drops or para drops.....not the best way to deliver equipment but it can be done....the best way is to have a plane land and off load it....but what in the hell do I know.....