Army Guy

A lot of things look good on paper, But the question was why has a government not chosen to go down this route ? Or could it be there is more to going into massive debt than your telling us.

No, not all Germans were Nazi's, In fact history has shown us thousands of examples of Germans, being sent to prison or concentration camps or escaping to other countries for speaking out, or refusing to take part in Nazi Ideology. History has also shown us that a far larger number took part in Nazi activities out of fear, fear of being sent to prison, the front, or concentration camps if they did not take part. Does this mean that because you take part in Nazi activities that you are a survivor or a Nazi ?...I thought that argument was shot down in Nuremburg as a defense statement , I was just following orders if I did not I or my family would be endanger from other Nazis. The very fact they took part in Nazi activities, be it out of fear, or survival still made they NAZI's, or supporters of that cause. That they would be held accountable in some form or another. By mid war most of Germany's citizens, were supporting the Nazi war effort in one form or anther....making them NAZI's. And if in your mind it just makes them survivors, then what of the German citizen that refused to work for or partake in Nazi rule, and paid for that decision with their lives...are they just unfortunate or did they simply make the wrong choice. Could the same argument be made about muslims in some of the extremist countries in the world....

Here you go again, talking out of both sides of your month again. Now your defending the liberals position on spending, in fact you saying we can pretty much enjoy unlimited spending forever.....lets knock the clock back a few months ago, when the subject was military spending, where you state There is only so much money to spend, and it is needed else where, other than the military...So what is it can we spend like drunken sailors, or do we need to watch every dollar that is spent as our debt means something in the long run.... And I'm not just talking about the military there is hundreds of Bils in shortfalls when it comes to critical infra structure repairs or replacement projects, Health care, and even Education that could be redone under the federal umbrella, if what you say is true, 100's of bils each and every year for ever...... Would solve a lot of problems would it not....So my only question is why has no one done it yet. If it is the magic pill why have we not swallowed it yet ? Why has 'nt another nation gone this route ? I'm thinking a lot is going to happen, and those in charge have been given advice NOT to go down that road....

There are always examples of out of the norm behavior, Yes there are women that walk around bare faced in Kabul, a major city center.....but lets put that into some context, there are more women in Burkas than not.....But then I've also seen a young women beaten to death over defacing a Koran....before anuone could react she was beaten, and stoned to death in a public street, then burnt, all of this right next to a place of worship.....with over 1000 people in attendance, including Afghan police....who tried to no avail to save her....It would be later discovered it was not her that defaced the Koran , but someone else.....the power of the MOB.....and while I agree there are similar things that happen in the west.....I'm pretty sure Christians do not take their children to public stoning's to take part in a brutal killing of women, children, or the elderly...perhaps if you look hard enough at our past maybe....

What a typical Canadian answer, sad really, when we are talking about the defense of our own nation.....It shows a lot of character, to watch someone else do all the work and take all the risks, and to be good with it all at the end of the day....

That is part of the problem, there are many plans in place, everybody got a plan.....but nobody has the time or effort to put the plan into motion......as for the Defense Acquisition guide.....WOW.....some of these projects are over 15 years old...and would have to start from scratch again to be viable....but at least we have a list.... And let not forget about the defense review.... can hardly wait for those results to be implemented....I wish you guys would stop pumping sunshine up peoples asses.....there is NO appetite for military spending....along with no shortage of willing citizens to serve this ungrateful nation.....everything will stay the same, no changes at all.

All of them that were re written, .........the DND SOR had more than one aircraft that could have been included....

WOW....sounds like a liberal politician response....had nothing to do with the question I asked....reminds me ....squirrel .....what were we talking about....

what does that even mean.....that only those that agree with your statements can use that It's our dime excuse.....and those that disagree, well WTF do they know, shit do they even pay taxes ? I get it only your opinion counts here....not other opinions, nor the military, nor any one else....

Yes now were talking about a secret code, only made available to liberals.....got it, should of know better.....never did get that decoder ring......or may be DND used the examples of aircraft already in service to many times, and this is NRC telling them "The capabilities required should not refer explicitly to those provided by existing DND FWSAR fleets" maybe there is no code, no aliens, no misguided sentences, maybe it is as it is written....what do I know I never got the code.....

Sure, it's your Dime....that's why they mention current serving SAR fleet aircraft....and that is why the para above that statement the one I provided lists more reasons that have nothing to do with the C-27J.....this is simple reading comprehension....

Good question the NRC SOR list dozens of them and the reasons they are not valid....such as cabin height, speed, range, NRC even went as far to dismiss that current levels of SAR service that DND wrote the policy on were not valid because the Government has not written a policy yet.....So any reasons list as to keep current levels of service valid...are omitted from the SOR....that services levels could or would be down graded to allow for additional aircraft to compete.....meaning it now forces the government to write a new policy on Service levels to Canadians which are lower than what DND currently has..... You and I know both regardless of which government is serving they are not going to make public why this choice....but follow the project, conns screw it up royally.....making the C-27J an aircraft with to be avoided .....why pick it....why not stay away from it.....

Nice try lets put all of that into context shall me......listed below is the para found under RECOMENDATIONS.....it goes on to put your statement into context.....It does not ref to the C-27J.....but rather Capabilites already within DND SAR fleet.....last time I checked , no C-27J......I guess you glossed over the para above that which goes on to explain the resons why the NRC SOR was commissioned.....

DND did have a preference , they made no attempt to cover that up.....they had access to the aircraft before and during the testing process....they put all the aircraft through their paces....and stated to the public and in their reports back to PWSG and the government they preferred the C-27J, it meet or exceeded all of its requirements....These are the guys that will be using the aircraft and it's sensors on a daily basis.....their recommendation was over turned, for political reasons.....as it always is..... Canada has a history of keeping it's military equipment well past it due date, at the cost of untold millions in extra maintence and repairs, buying parts not made any more....to deceive the public into thinking they are getting the best bang for their buck.....keep in mind the Buffalo is over "50 years old"...... this project is over 14 years in the making.....how can we blame DND for wanting to spend a few extra dollars on the next one....50 years old.....with that in mind ...may be meeting the standard , was not good enough.....but you don't see that.....

Another guy that does not read all the posts....this was Smallc statement as well.....And it is bullshit.....here is what the NRC say about why the SOR is rewrriten...I provided you with the link of the NRC SOR, it lists all the reasons for all the changes made to DND SOR ..... Note "no where" does it state that DND SOR was written directly to the C-27J....there were more than 1 aircraft that meet DND's SOR.....of course you'd already know that if you had read the NRC SOR.... http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs/fixed-wing-search-rescue-aircraft-2010.page

what I am saying is this, you have not read the existing NRC SOR , had you read it, you would have changed your argument....because the NRC SOR counters everything in your augment.... As to what info PWSG has or has not used , no one knows as it has not been released has it....The liberals have already used political gains to choose purchases of military equip in their recent history.......Did Justin have full access to the entire F-35 file before he was PM .....when he came out and said we will not buy the F-35 .... not even with a competition....The C-27J already had the stench of the CONS all over it.....the C295 never won anything....it was decided long before the competition was completed....

I can not find a unit price for the new C295W, with all the sar sensors ......as that price has not been released yet.....I have asked you for a source but all I got was crickets....And like I said the per unit price does not tell the whole tale does it....offsets , other considerations can still reflect on end price of contract..... The requirements had to be rewritten for the C295....but no red flag here....

No what I have been saying all along was this C295 purchase was one based of costs, and political choice...capabilities had nothing to do with it....My reference to costing was in responding to your and Smallc stating that the C-27J was double the price....which when we do the math that is not true...... Yes we do have a SAR aircraft being purchased , but it does not mean it was the better choice...

I guess Mongolia does not have a debating team does it, which would account for your fantastic debating technique, if that's what you call it........something like my dad can kick your dads ass anytime na na na....."come on" bring something to the table.....anything....

What you mean to say is this project has not been costed to 40 years, but rather only 33 years...which we have not seen so how can we simple say the C295W is cheaper....have you seen the costing...and comparison...do you have a source for that info.....I did not think so....So how can you make that claim..... Unit costs on their own do not tell the whole tale do they......we need to see the cost comparison for the full 33 years, and that info has not been released yet has it ? Also it does not include some of the NRC recommendations such as new SAR bases closer to the north, which was used to exclude the speed and range capabilities.....those are not going to be cheap....

Have you even gone to see what the contract consists of ....NO you have not....what you have done is simple discounted because it does not support your argument.....and even if it did not include all the SAR sensors we are looking for ....those will not double the costs as you were saying it would......You also discount or brush aside all that comes with the C-27J, such as common spares, with the C-130J which over the course of 33 years....would be in the hundreds of millions...when you take a look at warehouse space, training requirements for both pilots, crew and ground crew....to mention a few...

you might give a us a source and where you got your prices..... I used the prices according to the Australian contract..... even if you double the contract adjusted for inflation from 2012 you'd only be looking at 400 million more....than already spent....subtract the gains made from training, and logistics because they share a lot of the same parts as the C-130J and over 33 years that 400 million is not as bad as you make it out to be......

where in the hell did I say that.......what I did say is the NRC SOR debunks most of your argument.....DND did not write the specs to suit the C-27J as you lead us to believe.....that is a myth.....it also explains in its SOR that because they are no clear government policy in writing, DND could not use the excuse that those items were required to maintain SAR quality of service or was required for SAR duties.....as there is no governmental policy ...just one set out by DND....it is funny that while they did throw out most of DND want list , they did mange to keep the ramp requirement.....wow.....read the NRC SOR again they spell it out for you in black and white....they also state that DND might have to move SAR bases closer to northern population centers to maintain it's range, and time to delivery of services, due to the lowered standards....that is pretty danming....oh one more thing the cost of those new bases not in the contract....pitty and here I thought it was clear, sunny ways yes indeed....

Let see, $ 2.4 was the contract we signed on to was it not...........I just gave an example of Australia signing a contract for 1.4 bil for 10 C-27J.....you do the math.....the contracts are similar, with some exceptions....those exceptions are not major costs, or cost Bils... please explain it to me....and most of the sources I have checked do not list costing for the C298W, but rather the last version of C298....

SO what you are saying is the Cons purchased this new SAR aircraft.....? or has the Liberals taken what was left them and went the opposite direction.....