Army Guy

So what your saying is your making all this up ...he will be able to travel on his Canadian passport.....Yes or NO

No i get the term "LITERATURE", squid, but like you i don't give a rats ass what your literature says, just like how you totally disregarded my opinion..... I've seen the results personally, and i really don't care what your literature say , by so called experts, i seen hard as nails, military men broken down, and reduced to tears in a couple days..... by mild forms of torture..... that much i know, and if it can happen to them , im pretty sure it would work on your so called experts....Maybe your experts can check out these military schools, and it's training.....that's not going to happen, it flies in the face on what they are preaching.....

you mean like how our government has looked after all our soldiers with PTSD,and has rushed in all the aid they need to prevent more soldiers from dying....that kind of consequences..... you'd want them leveled, not sure what that means ? but it sounds serious ? do you want Iran leveled, they have tortured Canadians for months on end, then again there is Iraq, Jordan, Sudan, Libya, Somolia , UAE, Saudi Arabia, Egypt ....all of them have tortured Canadians .What happened Cyber you really don't like Muslims do you.....

I'm sure there is, shit i bet i can produce a mountain of literature that states Elvis is alive and well, does that make it so ? Lets say it does not work ? as you say it does not ....why has it been in existence for so long, why has it been practiced for so long. Why does so many government use it ? why do they spend money on preparing our military, intel agencies, and others for torture, to resist it , to keep secrets those indivs have had access to , secret.....if it did not work why even give torture a second thought......

And liberals were not angry when Harper was in ?, "Remember the Anything but Harper Campaign" Liberals are always talking out the side of their months.....lots of mumbling going on....but nothing of any real sense.

what crime are you talking about , The one where Omar is captured?

I said you make it sound that way. Your mixing the cultures in which he was submerged into,one that he identified with..... at the age of 12 according to afghanistan culture Omar was a man, not a boy, but rather a man. and why would he want to return to Canada, yes it was his country of birth, but that was about it, he did not relate to being a canadian, but rather a muslim caught up in all the shit in afghanistan, he wanted to bring war to the west......and that is what he done....his family and at some point even himself had decided to continue his war again'st the west.....and even with all that where is he now....Afghanistan considered him a terrorist because he was one, and terrorist don't last long in afghan prison....another fact why he is in Canada.....leaving him there would result in his death....and that does not play well on TV.... Lets establish a couple of pionts before we get into another topic already discussed. At the time of Omars capture, AFghan had already had a free election , which established an elected government, by the people of Afghanistan.......unless your saying that election did not count or was illegal, or for some reason unknown to the rest of us bogus......this elected government had asked the western coalition to help in the securing all of their country.......which is legal..... Now if this is true according to written history. Then how can a Canadian boy to young to be in any army legally...., just happen to stand up and take up arms again'st a lawful government ? sounds like a terrorist already.....Next question is how an under aged canadian boy be recruited into fighting for what exactly......how can he take up arms again'st his own country of birth, as Canada was part of the coalition.....sounds like he has chosen to draw the line in the sand.....and it was opposite of Canada's elected governments choice......How can that be terrorism, it is simple AQ was a terrorist organization, to which he belonged, to which he operated with, and worked for....smells like shit, tastes like shit normally it is shit.... So under what law can a canadian citizen take up arms for any other nation other than canada even if it was invaded as you state.........provided that individual is over 18 years of age....as stated in the Genva convention

You make it sound that he was participating in all of this again'st his will, because he was not.....in fact he took part in planting IED's and gloated about perhaps collecting the bounty paid out for killing coalition service personal, not the actions of someone acting again'st his will....He was a terrorist end of story.....and nobody knew what type of intel he had, what they did know is he had ties that were close to OSBL, and the US intel service thought that was enough to question him......

Sure he would have moved on, that much is a fact he was good at his craft , are you saying that info on old hide outs would not be useful, or perhaps who was his driver, is closest advisor, where they live etc etc all of this info is used to build a bigger picture.....and maybe your right maybe omar had no good intel but getting an asset that had close ties to OSBL would be worth checking out would they not be ?

perhaps i am misunderstanding what you wrote. What i did say is that Canadian military forces are not allowed to use any form of torture what so ever, it is laid out in Canadian civil law, military law, Geneva convention and inter national law.....Our military went to great lengths to prove it had acted as per all the laws above while in Afghanistan, to protect our reputation. That being said i'm sure if you look hard enough into our history you will find examples of torture being used by governmental depts . But just because we do not believe in the use of torture, does not send any message that it does not work, because it does work, it is the reason our government spends millions of dollars training our troops on torture resistance and E&E methods, it is why western nations also spend millions on the same training.... DND has always taken the high ground on this topic, and it's training for missions in afghanistan showed that clearly....our soldiers knew if we where captured torture was almost guaranteed, as was a possible beheading on TV.....and yet we did not torture any of our enemy nor did we cut off anyone's head.....because we had Canadian morals and values....to guide us.

Khadr was an example of a person that may have been privy to other intel they wanted, such as his fathers dealings, bin ladins where abouts etc etc....

No i'm not happy with it, I've said in this post and many others regarding torture " that torture is unprofessional" it takes away the honor, ethis, morals and values one gains within the institutions such as the military. "That's not what we are debating here, the question was does torture work ?"

You say it is ineffective, and yet why are so many nations doing it, when the consequences are as severe as you mention why risk it ? maybe your source is ineffective, at convincing the world that torture is ineffective, or can not produce satisfying results. Why do most western nations teach it's military, intel community members torture resistance measures, if it is so ineffective, perhaps you should research that angle.

Canada has done the same thing, remember the Omar Kadr incident where RCMP let US government officials question omar with out a lawyer present, or a canadian offical for that matter......so stop pointing fingers....when our government has not exactly been the angel here .

Nothing is guaranteed, That being said they normally start with Known facts first, to judge if the prisoner is telling the truth and to convince them they already known the answer before asking the question, Remember the prisoner is already in poor state of mind and weaken physical condition, such as lack of sleep, or now sick with the flu , the prisoner is not thinking clearly, can not remember details of lies or mistruths they have told, in other words you might answer the same question a hundred times, each answer is compared and if they do not add up then treatment continues.....until the prisoner see he can not hide the truth any more, and tells his interrogator. Remember i am talking about torture that happens at the governmental level, of any country they have resources already in place to verify any info given, like i said if a RCMP person can give you all your tombstone data in 20 mins.....what info can they uncover in hours or days of looking......the actual torture part of it is only part of the process, everyone has a soft spot hidden in their character, such as family, relatives, or sexual preferences, or indiscretions of some type....they can use these soft spots as threats exposing them to the public, wife , family....or just show you a video of your family and it's routine, kids school, wifes work place etc etc....just the mention of a threat again'st them can be very effective....it throws the subject off balance, now they don't know what to believe, so they give up and spill the beans.....all info can be checked one way or another... remember you have not slept for 3 or 4 days, your sick with the flu, you have been subjected to hot and cold, light and darkenss, and loud screaming the entire time, in a walk show you you family on video, and tell you something bad is going to happen unless you talk....what are you going to do....it 's check mate once they have you talking they continue over and over again, until it is all verified....then they will explore anything else they want, for other info or agenda's.

It is not a feeling , i've seen it work, and have taken the course, so it has been done to me as well...it can be effective, if you have someone who is very experienced at it....asnwer the this question then, Why is torture still being used today, and for thousands of years if it is not effective ? as your experts say....is it a perfect tool , no it is not but in the hands of the right person it will produce results.

Very good point, I'm surprised they did not do the same thing they did with the Military, and put it to the people on the inter net. I mean this is a topic we all have a vested interest in.....or perhaps they already know the answer to all the questions and it will cost money to fix....

Wow, so you read an article and now you discount that torture is not an effective tool to extract info.....I wonder if any of those, who make these claims have been tortured themslefs, today the military still runs escape and evasion course, and use mild forms of torture to extract info from each candidate, each candidate gets one week of classroom time, where they instruct them on E&E, along with methods to give you stamina while being torture.....then a one week field EX here the run the candidates through many different themes and different rescues techs.... they don't get alot of sleep during this period, the final 2 1/2 days are spent escaping and evading, prior to starting this EX they have printed on a card their worst fear, and if the interrogator finds this out they will fail the course.......nobody wants to invest that much time and pain and disconmfort only to be told they failed......so it is a great motivator..... everyone gets caught sooner or latter, and everyone talks sooner or later .......when they do get caught they are tired, exhausted, wet and cold, half the job is already done......+ note DND does not teach any forms of torture, nor do they condone any form of torture, this training is designed to teach soldiers how to resist torture attempts,and how to E&E. They use only mild forms of torture......such as described below....that being said even those methods are again'st the law, both Canadian civil and military law,along with Geneva convention....and inter national law. Mild forms of torture include loud music, or babies crying, women screaming, children screaming and crying, light and dark, meaning blinding light on all the time, or a head covering so no light is visible, for long periods of time, Stress positions like back again'st wall Like a chair, sitting on hunches or heels, plank position, normally by combining these you can inflame joints to the point it is very painful. extreme hot and cold, done for 10 to 15 mins each time for long periods of time produces cold or flu symptoms quickly. No sleep, over long periods...Some are saying thats not very bad....it's because you have not been through it..... Torture be it mild or extreme, in the hands of someone how has mastered it can and will produce results, info gleaned from torture is backed up by facts they already know, or can be verified by other sources as well. this is not a short process, taking a day or several days to produce small results. depending on what rank and what info the subject was exposed to, Say Bin Ladin, they would squeeze him for years for any info he had..... We had an MP give us a lecture on protecting our personal info, he took a picture off a guys phone, within 20 mins he handed him a piece of paper with his home address, bank account numbers, pictures of his kids and wife, where they worked and went to school , what type of car he drove and how much he owed on it etc etc ....very detailed info.....info that could be used again'st him....or convince him something bad is going to happen to any or all of them..... Torture has been around since man got tired of playing with himself..... and it will be around long after we are gone....for something to last that long and not die out....has got to say something for it's effectiveness....don't kid your self it works. but it does have it's limitations....

One of my suggestions was heavy fines, yes but fines are not the end all be all but they are a tool, presently major companies laugh at our attempt to obey the laws and policies already established....they laugh when it is cheaper to pay the fine and continue with breaking the law. the whole fine thing needs to be overhauled, along with the laws and policies put in place.....in these cases carrying a heavy stick works.....Heavy fines, would send a stronger message to these companies, sooner or later once the fines increased enough they would either come on board or shut down.....but right now the laws and policies favour the companies, and i want to add governments as well at all levels, why is it alright for montreal to pump out bils of liters of human waste, with the federal government blessing.....what type of message does that send ? Another idea was more federal government funding for strictly greenier infra structure, IE to fix montreals sewage treatment system, i get that we are doing just that, but not on the scale needed....or we would not have to make the consumers pay for the entire shot.....Where does all this money come from, ask the liberals where they found 30 bil that was spent so far, with many more on the books to be spent.....if money can be found in that qty , don't tell me it can't be found for carbon projects.... The problem with the Carbon tax is , it is not broad enough to cover all of the problems that effect our environment...And while i am not a tree hugger per say, i do care about our environment, as i am a avid hunter/ camper/ outdoors men, and i've yet to be to a place that has zero signs left by man, garbage, waste etc....including the high artic in resolute bay and CFS Alert.... This liberal plan lacks any real sound decisions , it sounds like someone crafted it up on a napkin in 30 mins.

Like wanting a tempory seat at the table in the UN

when in the history of fossil fuels has a tax not been passed on to consumers, or do you think it is good business to let this tax eat into company profits....what is the goal of every company again.....i think this was covered in high school economics.....to make money....not to swallow taxes or other outside influences....so it may not automatically be passed on but it will be made up some how, normally it is passed on to the consumer.... If the state of the fines remains constant, but what if i double it the next time, or triple it.....those hikes can not be covered with price hikes and pass on to the consumer.....the goals of the fines is to force the company to comply....not to add the cost of the fines into the way they do business. As it is cheaper to pay the fines than to comply.....

So all those solutions i posted are what garbage, not free market....that increased taxation is the only solution then i say BS.....we just jumped into this pool with both feet without checking all the facts....like how is this going to effect Canada in the long run, we are now learning trump is signing dozens of new executive orders including one that will protect the coal industry.....how does that effect their carbon reduction program, how does it effect ours, we should have waited , hind site being twenty/ twenty.....you can't sit here and tell me our goods and services will be meet on an equal footing if we are paying more in carbon tax than our neighbors.....you also can't tell me this is the only solution, nor can you tell me this is the best for our nation, when it has to be forced upon some provinces, with one purpose tax the shit out of fossil fuels.....which will force someone to find an alternative source of energy.....perhaps someone will perfect cold fusion and give it to the people for free.....would that be a kick in the economy nuts

It is not the same, a tax is quickly passed on to the consumer, with out effecting the total profit. It has always been that way....Much in the same way a constant fine works,or as you said it becomes as effective as a tax.... for alot of companies it is cheaper to pay the fine than it is to reduce carbon emissions....Change those laws and policies each fine increases until it convinces the company to comply. or shut them down...those are no pass onto the consumer, but rather cut into profit.

Then why do we need a carbon tax....if we are meeting our goals....Or is it that we are behind the eight ball and need to catch up, but that has not been stated by the federal liberals. Instead they create a tax and state everyone will pay it....then pssst to the premieres you can use this tax any way you want, on anything you want....... they will pay if you make it.....they will learn to pay more once they get use to it.....it is free money ...good luck, stop bothering me for more funding.

Well then problem is solved right, the liberals are spending on this areas,we can all relax right..... so why are they forcing the provinces to bring in this new tax ? Not all the provinces want this tax..... the only thing the liberals have come out and said was the objective is to lower the sale and usage of fossil fuels, which will decrease our carbon foot print.....in a country that its very economy relies so much on fossil fuel usage and sales..... Do you know what is happening in NB, right now, people are going back to wood stoves, the sale of wood stoves is going through the roof, wood produces more carbon that oil or natural gas, the solution is not working, not everyone can afford it , it is not a one solution fits everyone........it may have worked in BC, but not in NB because most of it is rural and has no choice but to use fossil fuels. And our Liberal governmant everyone voted for is already said there would be no rebates, all taxes collected would be added back into the coffers.....