Army Guy

Not sure where you are going with this, are you saying that Afghanistan was stable, or lets broaden it up a little, and add the entire middle east was it stable at the time. I have to ask what is the right response to a group that kills up to 3000 people with a single terrorist attack. is it a diplomatic response, or is it a threat of violence.....If you were President what would have you done ?

Sure i might buy the trenton is a military base idea........but to find thousands of airforce base personal and their families to show support at 3.30 am for a bunch of Army dudes.... might be stretching it a little.....anyways the support was their , in the media, across the country, to support my statement .....WHo is going to ensure our nation does not send us to another Afghanistan, the liberals....not likely they have sent Troops into all the hotspots across the globe and still sending more, if and when the decide.....And we already know where we stand amongst the majority of Canadians.....at the back of the bus.....which has been shown time and time again.....this is not something new, soldiers are not just discovering it now, we have known for years, decades....The message however was received loud and clear during the Afghanistan conflict, and it stings a little.... Because despite what ever is said or done to our troops ....our nations military will always and i say again always be there for Canadians when ever they are needed....There is no dropping the rope because it is hockey night, or X-mas, or my birthday.....there is no saying it is to expensive, or we can't afford that, its It is always AYE ready AYE....hoorah....And they support every Canadian, including you, eyeball, and Squid....every last one of you....not because we work for you, because we don't, DND works for the government in charge....It's is because your Canadian, and we have always had the your back.....Because it is built into our honor /ethic's code of conduct....

It is one of the main requirements of a Fighter / bomber or multi role aircraft are you saying that is not a role Canada needs.........

The question here is What are Canada's options , get on board with NATO Requests and come up with a 10 year plan to be at 2 % GDP......Or rethink our defensive commitments, which would cut Canada away from the grown up tabler totally....At least for the NATO, NORAD tables....but also our other alliances such as the US, UK , Australia, New Zealand, Can defensive pack.... Leaving us with what just the UN, there is an option.....not...

Now there is an idea with no traction at all, lets not send them to places like Afghanistan.....Who is not going to send them...The government....Citizens.....Who.... i remember my first tour to Afghanistan, Thousands were lined up along the fences in trenton Ont , 3.30 am cheering us on, shouting things like get some, show them goat herders who is boss...The very fact that the Majority of Canadians were in favor of the early Afghan mission....and that would continue until we moved south into Kanadar.....once s steady supply of deed soldiers started returning home.....that is when people shut it down.....Yes they had started to voice opinions about camouflage and open air Ilitis jeeps, But every dog and pony show that DND did for politicians, soldiers would freely voice their opinions, we need Transport helos, attack helos, to reduce the number one killer of Canadian soldiers, IED's .....what was the return answer ....lack of funding.....until the point they :the government " where forced to rent, "Russian" helos, which no one really knew if they were going to fall out of the air or not..... then we leased some American helos CH 47D, then we bought some, they were delivered well after we had exited Afghanistan..... As for attack helos....well we had the Griffons....limited to how much weight they could carry due to armour, and wpns....so no extra personal...... And once we were there , Canada just forgot about them, with no support from the citizens , funding for equipment dried up....soldiers got bent over the table, and stripped of everything.....I remember it got to the point we the soldiers were funding things like building new fire halls, clinics, and schools out of donations from soldiers own pockets.....at the mid way point Afghan stopped being Canada's mission.....and became DND's....they were paying out the bills, they were doing all the work, without support for back home, all Canadians were interested in was POW mistreatment made by a professor who was not even in Ottawa, attacks by diplomatic corp, because it was a DND mission, the diplomats had all screwed off under ground....after the last minister died in a IED attack.... My point here is WHO is not going to send troops into places like these....the government .....Ya right......the citizens.....they don't give a rats ass....

Trump is only doing what most US presidents did not want to do, or in trumps favor he does not know how to use any politically correctness.....he talks without thinking....that being said, it still does not give Canada the right to fly under the radar and not live up to agreed terms..... The fact That Canada signed on to this commitment in 2006, and once again in 2014 agreeing to all the changes, made in order to protect the alliance....or are you saying Canada was there bobbed their heads up and down, and left with no intention of living up to a major defensive pact guide lines..........I think your guide line observation is just that....why even have a guide line if no one is paying it any heed to it.....might as well have been a new rule for the dress code for the lunch room. I get it your concerned over new taxation.....so am i however lets remember that this government spent 30 bil in a blink of an eye....with no consideration to increased taxes....in fact most liberals were in favor, even saying 30 bil was a drop in the bucket....IF and i say IF this becomes a national issue then your right we as a nation are going to have to sit down and hammer out HOW we are going to handle this.....it won't be over night, but over a decade to achieve..... And i'm not laying this on the liberals.....I'm laying it on our government present , past and future.....right where it belongs....and lets not forget Canadians they own a part of this as well. And although i have been waiting for some one to take our defense spending seriously....I was really hoping that it would be a Canadian solution.....wishful thinking i guess.....Sad really when we need another nation to force us to take a look at what exactly our responsibilities are..., we have not taken our military seriously since after WWII....korea was just a small bump in the road.....Since then we as a nation have forgotten all the nasty things we had to learn through the blood of our countrymen, as if it was to painful to remember and one day we will have to pay that cost once again....problem is my time in the military is over, i have a daughter in the forces now, and soon a son who wants to follow his old mans foot steps.....i desperately tried to talk him into joining the airforce,,,,,,no way he said.... and i am concerned very concerned.... just as all the Canadians that have sons and daughters in the forces should be.....If we are going to treat them like dirty laundry....then we as a nation atleast owe them to either shut down the forces....or properly equip and fund them.....

Why ? because it is a Canadian thing to do....Based on contributions or the lack of..... Discribe a very significant contributor to NATO for years, how long is years, and what is a very significant contributor ? and very close to the 2 % of GDP level....And according to NATO's own records since 2006 the highest we have ever come is 1.5 % of GDP not even close to 2.0%......unless you have different figures.....Now if you want to track before 2006 go right ahead.....your right we where close to 2.0 % however we had 2 Bases in Europe and over 9000 troops directly involved in NATO operations in Europe....At the time the smallest force in europe,and we supported very little else.....to thin this task force down they agreed to support NATO operations in Norway, a once in a year fly over.....lots of support there and in the 90's they closed out our european bases to save a few bucks......... since then our commitment is declined, to where we are today....almost nothing, and yet our PM touts our commitments is more than funding.....ahhh we are sending troops to europe.....ahhhh NO Canada's commitment is the 2006 agreement....which is 2 % of GDP plus 20 % of military expenditures on new equipment.....and no we have not meet none of those goals...your starting to sound like trudeau now ......our commitment is our contribution, with out the AHHH, or UMMM's .... no it is not.....contributions such as troop and equipment contributions are not enough compared to the other nations that are above the 2 % of GDP mark and still sending troops and equipment to NATO tasks....

NATO statement of responsabilties. 2006 agreement signed , each member are to spend 2 % of GDP, 2014 agreement signed that each member would spend 20 % of it's military budget on new equipment. http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_67655.htm Nato Defense spending.... http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/canada-and-germany-derail-nato-request-to-increase-military-spending-targets

Not sure what your trying to say here, i did say over 50 years we have been freeloading , 50 years ago would be 1967....and since those dates we have not been over the 2 % GDP numbers. And don't get me wrong i am pointing my fingers at all governing parties at the time Liberal and Conservative.....Harper mistake was he made us all believe things would be different....and he ended like all the same, bending DND over the table when it was convenient... It was up to Canadians to decide on what defensive agreements it want to sign on to.....NATO requirement to be a member was to spend 2 % of GDP on your military....Last time i checked our PM signature was on that agreement, he and all the other signees knew what the terms where....and we brushed those aside, at the cost to other nations....now it is time to pay the piper. Along with NATO there is Norad as well, between the US and Canada, that agreement sees Canada with only 10 % of the bill.... You seem to think this is just a Trump thing, But it is not Obama said the same things in his address to our parliament.....posted in this very same topic....so it is not a trump "fake News thing"....most presidents have urged Canada to get back on track...

I don't disagree, but with over 60 conflicts around the world, and our nations incessant nature to get involved..... turning swords into plowshares is a little early....

Like i said before Squid ....i don't really give a rats ass what you think. I did my time , what did you do again....oh ya milked goats....i guess it takes all kinds to make a village....

Nice rant, but do you really think this is all Mike Pences fault, or is it the fact that the Trump government is calling out ALL nations that fell below the 2 % mark, the fact is really we have not been at the 2 % mark since the late 50's....and while alot of nations have called us out on it, we have blushed , said we will work harder next year, and so on and so on, to we get to where we are today, some 50 years later, still riding the cheap wave to the beach...in fact we resigned this NATO defense alliance not so long ago, knowing we where short on our 2 % of GDP goal....but hey we got away with it for 50 years why not a couple more.....well Canada is not the only nation riding this wave or peace dividend, the numbers are swelling fast.....Leaving the US to pony up for these shortfalls, something it is growing tired of, who could blame them.....And this is your message to the US government Go F8ck yourself.....Well you 've already heard the US response....NO you go fuc* yourself, pay up or get out......Kind of hard to sit at the grown up table when you don't pay any of the bills..... While the US military has had some problems, most are fixed today, But lets remember we live in a glass house as well, and for every problem they have.... we have dozens of problems...that have gone unaddressed for years...there are more than 2 dozen programs available to US service personal coming home from conflict, along with dozens of other that are sponsored by civilian companies.....here in Canada there are 1 or two programs available while you serve, and maybe 3 or 4 programs offered by civilain companies, thats right Canadian civilian companies are paying the bulk of the costs for rehab programs for soldiers.....Not only is this sanctioned by our government but also by it's citizens....How many soldiers in Canada has committed suicide after they have come back....the answer changes every day, a year ago it surpassed the numbers killed in combat....Thanks for having our backs....if this was an issue for the people of Canada something would have been done by now.......But because our military is nothing but a dirty word to most Canadians......this will go on until the numbers exceed beyond all our expectations.... Canada will spend what it has agreed to spend 2 %, or it will end up on the side lines pouting because they got their fingers caught in the cookie jar, and freeloading for over 50 years, and what did they do with all that funding they were suppose to spend .....pissed it away......here is a kleenex go wipe your tears.....

Canadian military is the second highest paid military in the world, the first place winners are Australian.....below is a copy of wages in 2016, i think they have gone up since then by a small percentage, note the records say 2013 but they are current....according to a pay clerk...on top of that all civilian staff are public servants which although are not paid as high as DND, they don't come cheap... http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/10/30/canadas-military-among-highest-paid-in-the-world http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/pay-rates.page

How is it going to be funneled into strictly American companies, Most of our equipment is of European design, our armour vehs, the AOR design are german, in fact the new ships are European design, so other than Fighters, what major buy are we planing with the US. Canadian corporations, sometimes you liberal guys make me laugh, our defense industry produces what exactly, the LAV 6.0, designed for low to medium intensity conflicts. Why do we have to complicate a equipment purchase with this over riding factor, that in most cases provides DND with sub par equipment, Canada does not have any real defense industry, so why force our own nation to shop at home. I did'nt seem to bother the liberal government when it purchased new SAR Aircraft, when a home built was available..... Maybe you can name all those high tech wpns systems we have right now.. if no more high tech equipment what are we going to spend all that money on , improved wages.....new infra structure, maybe some more western star trucks, .....well some of that may be on the wish list, i'm sure there are alot of equipment purchases in there.....

this is what our PM calls heavy lifting..... http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/is-canada-really-doing-the-heavy-lifting-at-nato-like-trudeau-claims

Canada has no sovereignty, we have looked after that by allowing our military to be depleted todays condition.....So yes we have already given all of that away, to the US as they pay the bills and look after things....as for the Unpatriotic to hope our nation will roll over to the USA....."*******" is my reply......... i spent 34 years in the service defending my country, hoping one day something like this would happen, some one would force our nation to give just one percent of the effort, time, and blood, sweet, and tears that our military gives this country every day.....I did not sit in my comfy chair in the basement, watching porn, and talking what is patriotic and what is not ,on public forums.... no sir i was living the dream..... They don't need air defense systems over canada, they'll defend themselves by destroying missiles and threats over Canada.....The AD systems they wanted to install would see all that stuff destroyed over the arctic.....either way the US is going to defend itself.....

Do you even know what Norad even covers.....odds are you don't....and they pay for over 90 % of it now......don't worry though it's not going to be like that in the future....

Thats what happens when you free load for over 40 plus years.....time to pay the piper, hope you brought knee pads, your going to be there awhile....

You can say what you want, but i bet this is going to cause some long nights for disco JT and is remarkable hair.....but i will bet you a lonney that there is going to be changes within our military.....and annual funding is one of them....get your check book out ....

Then i guess the federal government will be looking at all the books and making adjustments......The US government has already said, the deadline is 2018, if you have a plan excellerate it, if you dont have a plan get one......no where did it say, Sorry mister i simple can't do that.....Canada will be shown the door if it does not come up with a plan that works for everyone.

I guess we will see if Trump is going to keep his word......And if the US does not want to remain part of NATO, because it is full of deadbeats, and Americans are tired of paying all the bills it is free to do so.....this will force Europe to rethink it's military defense spending pretty much over night.....The next question for Canada will be what does this mean for Canada..... You can't be thinking that if the left Europeans to defend themselves that would not state to Canada the same response about the defence of NA.....do you really think uncle sam is going to continue to look the other way.....

Not you my bad it was SmallC....

When you sign a contract for admitance to a defensive pact for 2 % , then that means the correct amount is 2 %want to change that then go back to the table........don't like it then get out of NATO.....it's really that simple....We have been free loading for the last 40 plus years, and have pissed away all that funding on stupid shit.....want things like health care , education then dig deeper into your pockets.....can't have the cake and eat it as well..... Besides what are you liberals worried about, last month you said we could spend tens of bils with little effect on national debt, just think of how many jobs we could create, it's a liberal dream really.....win win....now all the arm chair critics will finally have something to complain about.....

This was a CNN report last year....conditions are bad....and with all the aid sent into the country already, the corruption is rampant , If Canada wanted to contribute why not send a military mission down there to build something, a workable water treatment plant ,a hospital, sewage systems, and get a bigger bang for it's buck....we do it all the time in Jamica, send construction teams down to build small projects...... http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/10/americas/hurricane-matthew-haiti/

Vice President gives NATO members another warning, if your spending 2 % or more then you need to pressure other nations into doing it as well, if you have a plan to spend 2 % then you need to accelerate it . and if you don't have a plan ,"get one" dead line is 2018...... Already our PM has said we are stepping up to the plate with troops.....this is how our nation pays makes it's contributions...Bullshit....how can Canadians expect to be part of an alliance that states in it's constitution that each member "MUST" spend a minimum of 2 % GDP....it also states it must provide troops and equipment when asked to do so......not one or the other..... Currently Canada spends less than .99% of GDP....I wonder, what Trump and trudeau talked about during their first meeting....we know NAFTA was on the table, what we don't know is if defense spending was a topic.....and if so what was said....one would have hoped the clear and transparent Liberal government would not keep us in the dark.....But then again, what do we know we still speculating about the admiral firing...... Perhaps this is what our country needs is to be forced to spend our share of defense costs for our defence pacts we have signed onto....We know this is going to kick most Canadians in the balls as it is their least favorite topic.....I just hope the trump administration keeps it's word, by applying the right pressure .....Now the US has already said pay up or the US will pull out, and if that is the case , then NATO will become a toothless organization with out them. So how does this effect Canada....well Canada will have to decide if it's european partners are worth spending any funding on, we all know the answer to that one, Canadians are not worth it , how will euro's make out........Or will they also decide to pull out.....One can also say that Canada will atleast have to pick up it's share of the Norad Tab, which is currently is less than 10 % today.....But the US might also ask to pony up for our share of Naval and Army costs to protect North America.....either way, those sunny days are over for all the major parties riding the wave to the beach might have a cost to it........Canada will have to pay its share of the Defense of this nation....instead of free loading , and doing squat with all that funding we save by being cheap bastards.......