Hawk

I wasn't comparing, you said that the primary reason Campbell was beaten was because he used mudslinging against Jean Chretien and it was seen as 'American'. Therefore I just pointed out that the current day Liberals are mudslinging yet you dont paint them as 'American'. Policies change, platforms conform, at least he didn't lie to get in power and simply ignore his promises like the Liberals you are defending. The true mud is on the left-wing, not on the right-wing. I find it hilarious that you can one second admit the problems of the Liberal party you know, yet in the very next you say they are better than a party you have no clue about simply because it 'struck you' that they are. That is what is re-electing this destructive government, that kind of thinking. Stop fearing what you dont know. Its actually been a long-term process, nothing that happened overnight. First off we elected a Liberal government that listens not to the majority because in Canada the majority is silent. No, its the lobbyists who run this country, and the minorities. The Liberals know this, the left-wing plays on this. That is the fundemental problem, you have lobbyist groups of all forms that have been gaining power, a government that is all the more eager to succomb to any and everyones demands (left-wingers are very comfortable with the flipflop) and so you have a weak foundation for a country. Then you get the state-sanctioned blockage of religion from school, this helps nothing and only adds to the problems of an already sick society. Religion might be seen as some as a disease, but it is a disease that encourages and teachs moral standards which hold society together. After all this you get the lobbyists working harder and harder to have their own way, more and more religion is suppressed, more and more morals decay as the new generations are encouraged to live wild and carefree, sex, drugs, and alcohol are shown as being essential parts of everyday life and anyone not taking part is a bible-thumping hillbilly. Then the weak-kneed government, realizing that their new generation has been properly indoctrinated in socialist ways of life, gains power by implementing more and more lobbyist legislation (such as gay rights, gun registration, etc) simply because it pleases the elites who now control our next generation and therefore earns them browny points and the next election. One problem with this whole plan is that every society in history that has gone down this road has ended in destruction. I only hope we stop ours before it happens to us too, a society without morals, without accountibility, and without responsibility isn't a society at all. Its a group of criminals and anarchists. You fear what you dont know, I blame left-wing propganda. What can the conservatives do? I mean its preposterous to claim they would roll back rights and freedoms, they CANT do that nor would they get the support to do that. What they WOULD do however is make the Liberals change the way they do business, and they might get our country's policies and economy back under control =p "Make sure the shadow you hunt isn't the shadow you cast" What you want is a Liberal government called the Canadian Alliance, I find that blatantly undemocratic and beyond pointless. Just vote Liberal, you are a Liberal, we aren't. Its also funny how you claim there are radical elements in the ROC, yet you fail to see how truly radical the Liberal's acted in their last term... intended ignorance or victim of Liberal propoganda? If you aren't a socialist you wouldn't vote Liberal or NDP, the Conservatives support health care, eduction, etc... you should probably check this stuff out before blindly believing what the CBC tells you. In truth I am glad they did too, simply because whoever won this minority election is going to burn. Its too close and tensions are far too high, if the Conservatives had won the minority it would simply be a repeat in history and we would be blasted for another couple decades. At least now there is a chance that the Eastern Canadians will finally see how corrupt their government is (with more and more scandals popping up this is actually happening) and get the courage to change their vote. Yes, such as the Liberals using the GST to gain power and then as soon as they gain power conveniently admitting that the previous administration was actually telling the truth and the new tax was needed =p Truly conservative people are more right-wing than the current Stephen Harper team, if you want them in power then you REALLY confuse me x.x If however you want the PCs to become more left-wing then vote Liberal (as I said earlier) You make it sound like the act was done directly, however it was not. Remember that the Shah was merely convinced by Kermit Roosevelt (senior CIA) that Mossadeq was a potential communist puppet. When the Shah ordered him to retire and Mossadeq refused, but after a short stay in Italy the Shah returned to Iran and fired his rebellious PM. Also keep in mind that during this time Russia was a VERY real danger, the Iron curtain still existed, and Iran was under constant danger from Soviet takeover. There was no way the Shah wanted to risk having a puppet Prime Minister. No, Saddam rose to power in his government, which was considered at first a liberation front from the old regime. But things went terribly wrong after he decided to kill all his political brethren and assume full dictatorial control =p As for the Shah, true there may have been some violations in Iran, but nothing comparable with extermination of minorities or mass graves. That is a perfectly good message to send, I would argue that Canada should be sending the same message to ensure the protection of Canadian workers in other areas of the world. Not at will, no no no, there must be a justification for the overthrow. As far as I know the USA has acted VERY well for a superpower (compared with other nations such as Russia, who by the way was reported by American papers near the end of the cold war as being a misunderstood nation of enlightened people), I am always surprised at how the left-wing can find 1,000 things that they percieve as problems with a right-wing government but show them a left-wing government (such as Russia, North Korea, China, etc) and they have infinite praise. Hey, if it was up to the right-wing we would keep the troops there, however its the left-wing lobbyists who keep forcing more and more restrictions on the USA military operations. They demand that the occuptional forces be removed, so the USA removes them, then the USA is blamed for the escalations that result from the departure. I mean, I don't understand how you can't see the contradictions of the left-wing =p Not when you have such enemies in an unstable region, especially not when you have almost half the country against you from the get-go. In Canada anyone with 60% would most likely have fragmented opposition. That is a matter he should have taken to the United States, or at least compensated as the USA wanted. His actions against an international company that was headquartered in the United States was a foolish and terrible plan that led to his downfall. Theft is theft, regardless of the circumstances. Heck no, however I dont believe that the US government should ignore and turn a blind eye to a government who is stealing land from US companies or a country that suddenly turned very socialist and was led by a leader who kept making things much much more left-wing. Please do list them, and make sure you dont mix up Governor promises with Presidential platform promises. Also Clinton era decisions that affect his promises are nullified No true Republican would vote for Kerry, and that is the truth. He may be ex-Republican, he may have Republican ideals to some degree, but he isn't Republican. The Republican party is defined by Dubya's policies and platform, so you cannot define someone who disagrees with Dubya's policies and/or platform as a Republican. Its not possible. Also you can't please everyone, look at the Liberals... Its hard to meet two Liberals that support the same policies/idealogies. Still waiting for some proof of flip-flopping... if you provide some I will provide more of Kerry hehe *gasp* never =o Although those cowchicks at rodeos are rather attractive

eureka you bring up some interesting points, and I agree with quite a few especially regarding Canada and an inbred anti-Americanism. I got over my anti-Americanism simply because I can forgive and forget, however I am Canadian and if the USA tried to take over Canada with force I would be on the front lines with my .22 (since it would work better than the guns the Canadian Military would supply... if it still existed) I just refuse to harbour grudges over things that happened decades/centuries before my time, something I think alot of people should be doing (including minorities) On your comments about true conservatism no longer existing, I totally agree with you. I am personally not 100% right-wing, and being a 21st century Canadian I have enjoyed free health-care and schooling for my whole life. These things affect you and therefore to a certain point every Canadian is socialist. However on our political spectrum I am on the right compared with those who are on the left, that is the only difference up here in the great North. As for your comments on religion, and the danger when church isn't kept seperate from State you are right on the main point, which is that religion should not be whole-heartedly accepted into politics. (Because for all we know some Pastor or Bishop could be using the elected as a puppet or some other such situation where the government suddenly becomes more of a theocracy than a democracy) However, I believe that the Morals and Principles of religion should be welcomed whole-heartedly. There is nothing and should be nothing wrong with a Christian leader being elected simply because he is a Christian, that goes for any tolerant religion (this means cults DONT count, or radical sects). Accountability can be found in a truly religious man/woman, and THAT is the kind of leader you want because they are going to be less likely to lie to you, less likely to thieve you, less likely to needlessly screw you over for a couple extra bucks. yoyodyne No problem

That does not change anything, you just supported my argument that the Liberals are being 'American' according to your standards. What?? I live in WESTERN Canada (where Liberals aren't liked) and WE got ads quoting Liberal dogma, not real-life quotes. Threats about what would happen if we elect a conservative government, things that they claim the Conservatives have done to Canada (scandals ironically that only the Liberals themselves could have done, since they have been in power 4+ terms =p) Mudslinging is not honest claims, it is personal attacks that are often unfounded and meant to destroy the credibility of the target to those who are too lazy/ignorant to double-check the information they are being fed. First off, the Liberals ARE liars, thieves, and DO support the degradation of society under the disguise of tolerance and understanding. Here are some of their scandals: http://www.davidchatters.com/parliament.cfm Have fun convincing people who know the truth that the Liberals are angels. Yeah, that was rational, re-elect the guy responsible for 20 years of corruption in the treasury, claim he is a 'new man' with a 'new government', and all his responsibility in the scandals are suddenly forgotten? I dont think so, at least you know you are a true Socialist for your blind hatred and fear of anything not wearing Red. Oh you mean like what the Liberals did 5 times in a row? *cough* flip-flop *cough* You have the right idea, sadly you just dont act correctly on it. Because you keep re-electing the proven corrupt government and ignorantly reject a TRULY 'new government' simply because the already-corrupt government claims the 'new government' isn't going to keep their promises. You confuse me (read my quote =p) Exactly, but you must look at the REASONS they were supported. Everything has a context, did the US Administration support those evil regimes so that those evil regimes could become more evil or so they could keep a worse evil from coming to be? With Saddam the USA supported him to keep in check the radical sect of islam that was spreading rapidly through Iran. Also, none of these evil regimes were originally evil, they were puppets who turned on their masters =p Now the USA is cleaning up their mess, and they are getting roasted for trying to do it while at the same time people are condemning them for NOT doing it. Can't win these days. Jacobo Arbenz is ALOT more complicated than you give it credit. After he and his military supporters overthrew the reigning dictator they went faaar to the left, grabbing land from people, massively rupturing their economy with payouts to the people, and pissing off the wrong people =p He wasn't all that strongly in place as it was, there was a friend of the past dictator who ran opposite him in the elections and gained over 40% of the support from free elections. That tells you that the people didn't whole-heartedly support Jacobo Arbenz in the first place. Then he goes and starts passing veeery socialist legislation with regards to centralization of almost everything. What caused his fall was when he took vast amounts of land from the United Fruit Company, offering only $2.99 in compensation per acre they took and gave away. This resulted in the United States interceding and demanding they pay $75 per acre which was of course refused. This led to furthur problems, in addition to a shaky reign as it was, and communist sects rising up against him (Since he wasn't a total communist, but he was practically fostering it) his reign collapsed when Carlos Castillo attacked him (Castillo was actually one of the men who helped in the first overthrow) Anyways I fail to see how the USA was at fault for their actions, they acted to protect United Fruit Company from a left-wing government and Jacobo Arbenz was overthrown by one of his own. No he is seen primarily as someone who isn't going to flipflop at every breeze of change. He is steadfast, something that no left-winger would understand. Look at Kerry, the man is a blithering idiot, instead of studying his contradictions people STILL publish books on Bush and his interesting word combinations back in his rookie year =p THAT is blind hatred of something they can't understand, and that is wrong. Then he isn't Republican. George W Bush is the Republican candidate, if the man is too left-wing for Dubya then he is a Democrat. Simple. As. That. He is also one brainwashed Democrat, if he believes Bush has lied left, right, and center. That is a paranoid dillusion from a core group of Bush/America-HATERS, whenever you try and reason out or debate what they believe Bush has lied about it always ends in 'you can't know that for sure' or 'for all we know' or 'its all the right-wing media propoganda, Bush is obviously lying about something' I mean seriously people, I could say right now 'KERRY IS AN ALIEN' and that has as much credibility as 90% of the crap I have heard from 'Professors' at Universities and Colleges... its rather sad when the Elites actually believe the unbelievable crap they spout, and they will hold onto anything regardless of its' credibility until it is impossible to defend and then suddenly they will flip-flop (they are infamous for it) Well... I live 1 1/2 hours from the BC border, that has to count for something rofl

The only assimilation going on is inside the borders of Quebec, you dont see subjugation by government of minorities within Alberta, Ontario, etc etc. But go and try to open a private English Christian school in Montreal =p Good luck with that one. That statement has got to be the most blatantly ignorant statements I have ever heard. English isn't even remotely close to dying, if anything it is in danger of becoming TOO widespread (which in my opinion is good, since then I can go more places and understand what people are saying xD)

You are saying that having people feel sorry for a massacred and oppressed people is 'propoganda'? You gotta be kidding me, its not propoganda its educating the people on the REALITY of the communist failure. Life isn't on paper, complete socialism doesn't work, and many many many people die whenever a small group of elite, 'enlightened' individuals sieze power of a country and turn it to Communism. Anyone who supports communist ideology should be exported to China as a Chinese immigrant (to get rid of American/Canadian protection and get a real feeling for how 'friendly', 'rich' and 'prosperous' they are) No it gaurantees Canada's protection by the USA, think about it: If EVERYONE stopped giving the USA oil what would that mean? It would mean global economic chaos, because America has such economic clout and trust me they would use it until oil trade was reinstated. Until then however they would need a way to stay operational, and if Canada was supplying all their oil needs I doubt they would economically clout us =p Your argument is pointless since it is almost totally impossible for the entire world to cease oil exports to the USA, and therefore this would never be an issue... and even if it was, I guess that the East would just need to spend some money to develop Alberta's oil fields till we can supply both the States and us. Rofl I would laugh so long and hard if that happened, the East without oil from Alberta hahahahaa. It would make almost every Albertan's day to have the East suddenly realize 'omg, there IS an Alberta, I thought it was just Conservative propoganda' =p Anyways, Alberta got alot more important recently... we have more oil than Saudi Arabia ( http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/102spring2002_...jects/M.Sexton/ ) Also recently there was developed a way to extract oil from tar sands that was allegedly 10x as productive and cheaper than standard procedures. If this development is implemented Alberta will become an economic power with enough economic clout to upset alot of power flows in Canada (shift West hehe). On top of that we could potentially fix alot of problems with the USA that continue to ferment (Such as BSE and softwood lumber), if they want our vast supplies of oil they better open the border to our cattle and wood

Idealist: Funny you should mention mudslinging as being a 'conservative'/'American' thing, maybe you should have watched the Liberal ads this past election, especially in Ontario =p cemees: 'Evil' does exist in the world, and that means evil governments. I believe its up to those who are 'good' to do battle with the 'evil' to protect the innocent, have you ever truly thought of the people under these 'democratically elected governments'? Let me guess you believe Iraq was a democratically elected state? rofl The truth is that the anti-Bush sentiment is primarily in the east and contained to hardcore Liberals, they hate Bush with the same vehement anger as American Democrats. I have seen Canadians with slogans ranging from pictures of Bush with a sniper hair between his eyes to depictions of him killing children for oil. This isn't reasoned, this isn't enlightened, this is merely immature, horrendous hatred of something they can't control. I live in Western Canada and we are far more pro-US-relations than the East, we are alienated from the rest of Canada since we dont vote Fiberal and are generally ignored unless there are bills to pay =p

Let me guess, 'its vietnam omg omg omg we have casualties' News flash (not left-wing news): 4 times as many CIVILIANS were killed by a handful of terrorists than years of American wars against 2 nations which harboured those terrorists. Now why dont you take a chill pill, stop splurting out the negative Liberal tribe that is so very overused. Consider how many lives have been saved as a result of overthrowing two dictators who were funding terrorists and massacring their own people, stop thinking just of yourself and of your hatred for America and start thinking of human lives. The lives of 500 soldiers in exchange for the lives of countless people who are no longer going to be victims of terrorism funded by Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein. I believe in people, and in looking at the true results rather than fabricated doomsday predictions that always end up wrong (yet they are always ready with another one =p)

All I hear is a bunch of Bush-haters trading cards from the first few posts of this topic, its pathetic yet typical. So let me address your 'points' 1. The only true idiot is the administration that lets the catastrophe happen before they act. If someone that openly expresses total hatred of you threatens to kill you (seriously) and proceeds to plan where he will stab you and you wait till he actually does then you are the fsking idiot. Yet that is exactly what you are saying governments should be doing, pre-emptive actions are meant to be done prematurely to PREVENT nasty things from happening, not as retalliations for acts already commited =p 2. 100,000 / 300,000,000 = 3.3 x 10^-4 % of the American population protested, whoa I am certain this will cost him the election =p I mean seriously, 500,000 disputed votes in Florida barely touched him, and since then his popularity has skyrocketed from what it was. Just the hardkore leftists and leftist elites are left, and the elites happen to control the media and higher education which leads to the whole 'enlightened' dogma with which the Left attempts to demean the victim of their hatred with personal attacks and heart-throbbing lies (Michael Moore anyone?)

Who says law and order must come from a monopolistic state? I'm not arguing for chaos, but for the abolition of arbitrary power backed by violence. It is impossible for order to exist without 'arbitrary power backed by violence. ' The utopia you are laying out is a socialist one, and has been proven impossible by countless people throughout history in addition to disproving itself. Elites always exist, ESPECIALLY in a socialist system (who runs the Canadian media hmm?) and therefore no matter how you look at it there is no possible way to control your 'utopia' without a force of some kind to maintain order. Not everyone believes what you believe, so unless you simultaneously could kill or brainwash every person who disagreed with you there would be dissent, and you would need to make sure nobody changed their mind when your little society came to exist. So if someone did change their mind, or people didn't instantaneously die or become brainwashed by your infinite wisdom on society how would you deal with a group of radicals?

I believe it all boils down to this: you get what you pay for. Simply put, if we spend the billions to get good quality up-to-date equipment we will actually be spending the money well. Whereas purchasing or repairing old faulty equipment has constant costs, minimum efficiency and use, in addition to major operator risk (sea king anyone?) I personally would rather spend a couple billion on a good new sub than spend hundreds of millions on a sub that couldn't do a dam thing should it be needed (for some reason or another, perhaps because it leaked?) I agree with those who say we should develop our own Canadian-based companies and corporations to make our own equipment, but again that will cost loooots of taxpayer dollars.. and I highly doubt your gonna convince that homeless drunk that Canadian independance and national security is more important than his homeless shelter+booze =p Bottom line is that in order for us to get anywhere serious money is going to be needed, and unless someone is willing to put it forward things are just going to get worse. Patching a problem eventually reaches a point where it would have been cheaper to buy new, this will happen with us as well (I swear, with all the outdated equipment the Canadian military has, I can't understand how people can think that employing thousands of mechanics to constantly be fixing faulty old systems and custom-ordering out-of-date parts for outrageous prices is better than upgrading) Thats my two cents

What needs to happen is Quebec needs to lose its special status and become truly 'equal' with the rest of Canada, that goes for all minorities. I am sick of this 'equality' that is so socialist (some are more 'equal' than others =p), make it true equality or call it tyranny of the minority. The whole Anglophone/Francophone debate is based on that, since each side believes the other to be at fault. In truth both are. However my personal OPINION is that English should be the only official language, and French can be another minority language =p This whole billingual thing is just pointless, its obvious Canada isn't a billingual paradise and continuing to force it will only result in furthur tensions and gaps in unity.

Rofl. 1. That website looks rather... disturbing. But that is a mix of my own bias against anything socialist in addition to having artistic blood in my veins (and omg those colors just do not work unless you live in the tropics) 2. Found that on the site's main page, yet more proof of Liberal mudslinging. Last I checked the evil tories have our province out of debt, something that I have yet to see a Liberal government even come close to =p Not to mention I see no supporting articles, no sources, no anything except an opinionated statement. That is also typically liberal, because to a liberal the simple act of forming a left-wing opinion makes it flawless. 3. Alberta is right-wing, to any left-wingers who can't understand why let me put it this way. a) We dont like having elite hypocrite Fiberals throwing our tax money around like we have been seeing them do with everyone else. Fiberals have constantly had an anti-west bias, so dont expect us to welcome you with open arms now that you finally realize we exist as a part of Canada c) We are primarily a province of farmers, and farmers are far from stupid. If you think they are then you are one damnably ignorant person. Farmers vote conservative because Liberals and socialism has NEVER been friendly to the farmers, just look at every socialist 'utopia' in history, every single one has persecuted the farmers as the ignorant people who needed to be scourged to make way for the enlightened. Fiberals have a history of screwing over the rural areas and therefore you aren't going to be loved in a rural province. Sorry but it just wont happen. 4. In some ways I agree with Cartman, simply because I understand where he is coming from. Albertans stick together for the most part, same as Quebec sticks with Quebec. The only difference being Quebec gets what it wants while Alberta gets the bill =p

Nowhere in that article does it say Israel was caught spying on the USA, all it says is there is "allegations" Learn the difference

Have any of you been following this hostage situation in Russia? I would like to know what some of you think about it, personally I think that this is exactly the reason I believe Terrorists should be exterminated. Whoever uses children as human shields isn't worthy to breathe air, and those who defend their actions are even worse.

First off read my previous posts please, no wait I will just post it here but in the future please read my posts: "This is totally up to the individual, the FACT of the matter is that a supernatural being must exist... its up to you to decide which one is real. Personally I believe the Christian God, I have studied alot of the other major religions and found them pathetically lacking, sometimes moreso than science-based religions, in important areas but the Christian God makes sense and sounds the most authentic " I use 'being' as merely a word symbolizing a supernatural presence, sine something that created the universe needs intelligence it is only natural to call it a 'being' Excellent, then whats stopping you from posting it. If you had read my previous posts (which it is becoming apparent you did not) you would realize I have already asked for other explanations in detail so I can analyze them =) Oh really, but if you had been following the debate (reading the posts) you would know that already it has been said that there is no 'scientific truth' that disproves God. If there is please do bring it to my attention Remember though, it must be a 'truth' and we already discussed the Quantum Theory See you are judging something you do not know, have you ever once been at all religious? If so what religion? I have stated I support Christianity, and we base our beliefs and 'dogma' directly from the Bible (a piece of literature that after thousands of years remains almost entirely unchanged) So onto your followup on who 'interprets' it, let me ask you this... 'Thou shalt not steal' tell me how hard is that to interpret? 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' whoooaaa too many opportunities for misinterpretation =o The Bible is very clear on issues of creation and moral law, the only truly controversial areas have nothing to do with whether or not God created the universe. No my friend, your ignorance of religion saved me... but I can gaurantee you I am not ignorant of science =) This is a good point, because there is no right or wrong answer to it (sadly). While I personally would love a Christian government I understand the issues this could cause and also the problems that might occur should a radical Christian come to power. However on the other hand Secularism is a religion in and of itself, it is based on the non-belief of religion. So it has agendas as well, and that agenda includes the suppression or assimilation of all religions. I dont agree with that either =o So I guess what we need is a mix, to keep things balanced and so everyone's interests always have a voice.

ceasar: your rants are not welcome, please either learn to address points or go elsewhere. Notice how I will even address yours: First off the Iraqis are defeated, but the USA is giving the power back to them. Second the casualties are bloody low for the takeover of an entire nation, it seems you dont have any clue as to regular war casualties. Here if you want to see REAL war casualties here are some sources: WW2 - http://ww2bodycount.netfirms.com/ Vietnam - http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html So yeah... 'OMG THEY LOST A COUPLE HUNDRED TROOPS ITS THE NEXT VIETNAM!'... I hope you see how truly mistaken most people see you as =p Get your sources right, every left-leaning news outlet was predicting this as the next vietnam that the USA couldn't win. Even Michael Moore (your leftist savior) claimed the USA couldn't win when he said "The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win". Not to mention all the left-wing media embarrasments (eg: CNN and their coverups for the coveted office in Bagdhad) Still singing the left-wing doom song I see, this isn't Vietnam, this isn't a quagmire, and once this is all over the left-wing will be singing as if it was all their idea to go into Iraq in the first place =p http://washingtontimes.com/world/20040701-...20730-9756r.htm Yeah guess what not everyone was pissed at the new flag =) As is common in left-wingers you choose to ignore the problem and hope it goes away, regardless of the consequences.... that is very very sad. At least you claim to not idolize Saddam like so many left-wing North Americans I have talked to. Again you double standard everything. They tried that uprise aid in the Cuban Missile Crisis and STILL the left-wing shrieks bloody murder. You guys can't make up your minds as to a suitable solution (except if it involves Americans being killed rather than other people) I strongly suggest you dont use the 'oil' defence since it was proven false by both sides of the political spectrum, it was nothing more than a rumor that got big due to left-wing media outlets and now is heralded as divine truth. In fact, look at your gas prices today... are you rolling in free oil now that the USA controls Iraq? Didn't think so. I did answer it, you just didn't read my post. You also haven't answered why me and other right-wingers are scandal supporters =) Exactly, so tell me why you said this: Does that not indicate you are comparing the two 'evils'? And according to many people there is evidence that links alien landings to Texas =p Conspiracy theories (Moore for example) and rumors are not evidence, if there was really any evidence and not just left-wing suspicion we would be hearing about alot of arrests or court-marshals.

There is also the fact most of the dire predictions failed to come to pass. Saddam has been captured, the Iraqis defeated. According to the left that would neeeeever happen since this war was unwinnable, its another Vietnam right? A quagmire? I got a whole lot of nice quotes from a book called 'Misunderestimated' which you will find interesting, and if you want I will post them =) Oh so since we didn't ask what flag they wanted how do you know they want the old standard? I think you are adding just as much bias to this issue as you claim we are. Of course, but how could they do that with a dictator in power that killed anyone who wanted change? Then the USA goes in and ousts the dictator (who is keeping them from 'making the determination') and suddenly they are evil, double standard anyone? As KK, along with any right-winger you ask, has said numerous times (and you fail to accept) is that we don't support the scandals. Why is it that you are labelling me a 'scandal supporter'? Is it because I support the invasion of Iraq (albeit not whole-heartedly)? Your use of the source indicates that those who support the USA support the scandal, which is nothing short of preposterous. The personel responsible for the scandals are being globally humiliated and tried for their crimes, also investigations are being led to bring any affiliated persons to justice as well. Let me ask you this, do you think those people who beheaded Nick are facing the same treatment? Of course not, they are heroes. The USA and the USA government are not even remotely close to being terrorist.

Here are some good toons I stumbled across "MoveOn.Org is Outfoxed!" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=8504 "The Middle East Loves Michael Moore!" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=7980 "Al-Zarqawi and Michael Moore Explain Beheadings" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=8178 "A Quiz on Middle Eastern Cultures" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=8023 "Al Gore Loses It" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=7651 "Common Ground" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=7933 "ChronWatch's Scary Prediction Comes True!" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=8298 "A Movie Poster for Michael Moore" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=8151 "Klan with a Tan" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=8498 "Howard Stern Enters Politics!" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=8263 "John Edwards, Dem Eye Candy" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=8399 "John Kerry's Shotgun!" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=8277 "The Ventriloquist Dummy" - http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentD...ay.asp?aid=8474 Oh I could post another 20-30 but I wont, Gary Waltrip is awesome xD

I must sadly agree with you on this one You are overlooking that sometimes people need to be shown a vision in order to pursue it, that is what the USA is doing. It is rare for a left-winger to be at all positive about anything... at all. Heck a few days into the invasion they were all declaring 'quagmire' 'vietnam' 'we are losing!' 'we can't win!' blah blah.... well last I checked Saddam was captured, Iraq captured, and the USA was in control Why dont we just wait and see what happens instead of overreacting and crying doomsday? =) Oh it would be sooooo heartless to get rid of the flag that represented decades of torture and death under the leadership of a hated dictator. Tell you what BD hows about we move you to some nice south american dictator's country, pin 'I love dictators' pins all over you, and release you into the public... see if you last a day =p Perhaps this hasn't occured to you but maybe the Iraqis WANT a new Iraq that is anything BUT the old Iraq? Coulda woulda shoulda, probability isn't a constant so using it as a judgement call is pointless. I got a 'prank' for you too: http://encoderx.co.uk/nickberg/

Yeah kind of reminds me of the communist revolutionary leaders, always bishing to the government and gaining support till a takeover, then any 'intellectual' part of them suddenly turns into 'totalitarian' and anyone who questions their economy is killed.

I post this earlier, please read previous posts so we dont keep returning to points already discussed "Actually it can be logically supported, I was waiting for you to throw out this card First off, take into account your scientific explanation, it is based on scientific principles which must be at least somewhat in line with scientific laws. So you are limited, you can't create something from nothing, no matter how advanced you are something must exist for something else to be created from it. The universe CANT have been created from nothing, it NEEDS to have been created and since it couldn't have been created with science (as science is flawed and contradictory in that area) that leaves one possiblity... that the universe didn't create itself, that a supernatural being created it that was OUTSIDE the laws of the universe. Now your point on God always existing is a pitfall, because you see with a supernatural being with no limits how can you say with confidence that it doesn't have the capability to have always existed. It isn't held constrained by the laws of physics, it isn't held by any constraints or limits. Whereas your god is, and disproves itself. " Alright then, bring some forward and I will challenge it scientifically as I have been doing. I have yet to see any proof as to how the universe created itself and there never will be any because the very concept of scientifc self-creation is blatantly contradictory. Again stop generalizing and give me specifics, because last I knew the Bible is the most authentic books in history (and its several thousand years old) whereas science is not even a thousand yet and already is so full of holes in the fundamentals that it is amazing anyone would believe in this no-God sentiment. This is totally up to the individual, the FACT of the matter is that a supernatural being must exist... its up to you to decide which one is real. Personally I believe the Christian God, I have studied alot of the other major religions and found them pathetically lacking, sometimes moreso than science-based religions, in important areas but the Christian God makes sense and sounds the most authentic

Hey MS how about you address some of our rebuttals instead of ranting? =)

I found that one particularly amusing, I highlighted the particularly biased area. I would think it to be more like this: since I lack the mental ignorance to accept it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be contradictory and rely on blind faith. No examples or instances? You refuse to answer my most basic of questions then, since I have asked countless times for you to explain how energy was created. That is an example of a contradiction, which you wont answer. Another contradiction I pointed out was how did matter that didn't exist suddenly exist? How did an explosion (if you believe in the ridiculous theory of the big bang) create such a meticulous universe (hey didn't you hear about that nuke that was dropped on Hiroshima creating a Ferrari?) Beep beep backpeddling detected. Never did I say you claimed it, I said you 'believed' it. Which you just admitted yet again, so my point remains. 'Since science can't at this point explain anything about how we got here we might as well all believe blindly that we popped into existance somehow scientifically and laugh at those religious people for their blind faith' rofl, hypocrisy anyone? Only difference is that your religion makes less sense than mine, people have no purpose, have no point, have no beginning, and have no soul according to the religion you defend... so tell me, if we have no beginning and no point and purpose and no soul, then how and why are we here? =) Science role has only been in human civilization since around 1200 AD, and you can thank religion for that =) Source: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/sci...nce_origin.html I have scientifically proven religion as superior to evolution and self-creation, your failure to rebuttal any of my arguments and continually avoid the issues while simultaneously throwing around your own 'scientific dogma' (which you seem to have in spades) shows how you even realize this. No you couldn't because using logic its impossible, you aren't old enough, you also are bound by laws of physics same as the rest of the physical universe. You lack the logic required to understand the concepts I put forward, I have debated with professors and they understand what I am saying and many admit that evolution and atheism take more blind faith and are blatantly illogical, but they refuse to admit the existance of a supernatural being. That is simply stubborn ignorance, especially since they just admitted none of the other explanations work xD Also, since you can't prove the existance of the universe and your the one attacking the existance of God the burden of proof is on you. Not me So far by simple logical deduction you are fighting a losing battle, you have no proof, only dogma and unproven theories. Since Evolution thinks it is ok to take a pigs jawbone and use it as proof for a missing link I am rather pleased that they are uncomfortable with Creation Science. At least we dont intentionally lie for a paycheck =p As for your 'claim' that 'Since supernatural phenomenon, by definition, cannot be shown to exist, the existence of said phenomena is pure speculation (blind faith).' I would argue that I have not even close to as much blind faith as do you. Since you are determined life or death to believe that a contradictory and unexplained beginning to the universe created you unimportant, without purpose, without a soul, and as a single cell that evolved into a human (using documented lies as supporting evidence, such as the pigs jawbone I mentioned previously) I am inclined to believe YOU are the one that has issues with blind faith Here is my theory, a supernatural being created the universe since it couldn't create itself. Now, disprive me using the scientifc process =) To be fair you may also post a theory and I will attempt to disprove it using the scientic process. Also dont use the inflationary universe because it uses as a model a universe that is post-creation, I am talking about the coming-into-existance of all matter and energy from literally nothing (not the nothing of space, true nothingness) Well its about time you fled from your sinking evolutionist defence =) But your new defence of aliens is flawed as well, because you are still thinking in terms of a post-creation universe. Who created the 'aliens'? You see, my logic and thought patterns aren't constricted to Darwinism and his obsession with the Evolutionary process (which can be proven no more than the creation of the universe coincidently) By definition of course time is a concept, however time itself without definition is simply existance. If nothing existed would there be time? If nothing at all existed would time exist? Also everything that exists obviously must have a beginning, and your claim that counting backwards has a limit is pointless simply because there is no way for us to determine the finite value of infinity =p That is the whole reason it is called 'infinite', and I would also like to point out that your argument worked against itself seeing as how you yourself just admitted that a timeline has a beginning Here is a challenge, point out one thing in the known universe that doesn't have a beginning. Just one, come on with all that scientific knowledge of yours and all those imaculate evolutionist scientists of yours should be able to tell me one thing that has no beginning They do have 'cause' they are part of nuclear radiation, stop thinking post-creation for justification of pre-creation self-creation =p Not to mention just because we aren't able to see the smallest particles that doesn't mean they dont exist so those particles that are emitted from nuclear radiation are made up of smaller particles. I would also like to point out that the Quantum theory is a THEORY, as I have been pointing out your reliance on theories is yet again self-evident. Oh yeah, completely possible for something that doesn't exist to create a reaction on the atomic level (which doesn't exist) which would in turn spontaneously form a singularity (which couldn't exist) which would then somehow miraculously create enough power to explode (which would be impossible) an entire next-to-endless universe that we still are unable to fathom (with all our extremely 'wise' scientists) =p Your sooooo believable xD Actually the Quantum theory is mathematically challenging (and next to pointless), however that is about it. Observation is impossible since our microscopes as you said can't model what is happening and we dont know what is happening, kind of hard to find physical supporting evidence when you can't figure out why stuff is happening. The existance of God is obvious in my mind and in the minds of alot of scientists as well, simply because, as I have stated and supported, all other avenues of explanation have GLARING problems and contradictions. No matter how many scientific theories you make wont change the fact that scientifically the universe couldn't have created itself =) Your talking about the ancient Greece we get Zeus and them from? The one responsible for one of the first religions? Thats the one your talking about right? As I posted that source before I will post it again, it explains how us 'primitive' Christians are responsible for the scientific utopia we all enjoy today. Source: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/sci...nce_origin.html Knock yourself out

You obviously dont know the full situation, Moore admitted to releasing his movie at the time he did for the explicit point of affecting the elections. He isn't a Canadian citizen, he is an American. I am rather surprised that you are supporting him, I thought you were against American meddling =p Whatever the case his actions went directly against our laws, in the Canada Elections Act is clearly states: Source: http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpos...c9-19a364ab4bf0 An American came into our country with the sole purpose of affecting our election and the minds of Canadians. If you Fiberals can't see the problem with this I am concerned about your own solidarity, because it IS blatant hypocracy... If you support Moore I better not hear another peep about big bad America sticking its nose in other people's affairs, or you prove yet again your nasty double standard (otherwise known as the infamous 'flip-flop') =p

MS you are an isolationist, and while in some aspects I share your sentiments regarding foreign ownership (and I am a Conservative) I do not think we are in dire straights... not even close in fact. If anything the foreign investment, especially from the south, will only help our economy. They can't do much more than channel more cash into our country, and if their corporations want to fork out the cash to cover development costs go for it. We get our share, we get jobs, we get the produce, and we get better international ties