buffycat

Yeah right. Well I seem to remember an awful lot of ceasefires when Arafat was still alive (and holed up in his compound by the IDF) that were broken by he Israelis (specifically the psycopath Sharon) who would destroy Palestinian homes with bulldozers and use helicopter gunships to kill "militants". Of course we have only Israel's word as to who were the militants who were worthy of extra-judical execution. Don't forget the use of human shields as a matter of policy with the IDF.

All the borders? How about the one between Gaza and Egypt? Back to the Rafah crossing, why are there 6000 Palestinians "stranded" there? They're stranded there because they want to get out of Hamastan, where they are no longer welcome, due to Palestinian infighting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-G...flict#Ceasefire Feel free to follow further links to the references within that section if you don't like wikipedia as a citation. Nothing happens at the Rafah crossing without Israel's say - while yes it is watched over by the Egyptians and and EU contingency - it is still Israel who dictates. Wiki is NOT a source for anything. Many of the those who were stranded were in Egypt for medical treatment - since Israel has laid siege to Gaza since her 'withdrawl' two years ago. Get your facts straight - you could start by NOT using wiki as a source - try the link I provided for B'TSelem. Do you even know who they are?[/i] Hamas is the dominant authority in the region. NOT at the time. But they held their ground - and did not fire. Makes no difference to the butchers in charge of the IDF or Shin Bet. As the government, if it says it offers a ceasefire, than that means not only on behalf of itself (the government), but of all military organisations over which it has jurisdiction. If the government of Israel offered a ceasefire, but the IDF (a military group associated with Israel) kept attacking anyway, would you accept that as a valid ceasefire? I'd bet no. Why then is your answer different for Gaza. If it's government offers a ceasefire, but a military group within it keeps lobbing rockets, then obviously the ceasefire is not being adhered to. Ummm the IDF is the Israeli military - it is not simply a group associated with Israel. Now - what of the Settlers - who do attack and kill Palestinians along with destroying their crops, and burning their groves - so how should the PA react to that? Unfortunately, that's exactly the problem. The Palestinian governments simply can't control the militant groups under their jurisdictions. Whether Abbas, or Ishmael (or whatever that Hamas guy's name is), or anyone else wants to make a ceasefire or a peace with Israel, the rockets will keep landing on Israel anyway, from terrorists that these governments cannot control. And that's precisely why Israel carries out strikes and incursions against these areas - to do the work that the Palestinians themselves should be doing, keeping militants that are acting against the word of their governments in check. So, then why can the Israeli government not keep any kind of checks on the radical Settler groups? Look up Hebron and see what is going on there. There is plenty of nastiness going on for both sides - but no one can consider them equal, and it is best to realize that the Israelis are the Occupying power - complete with the responsibilities underlined in international law which comes with being that Occupier - none of which she pays any attention to. (ie the illegal settlements).

Indeed no shame: "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." -- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99. "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." -- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech. "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel." -- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation). ******** Again, I will stress not all Jews feel this way.

Yes, you are correct - Likud centric. Pardon me, it is hard sometimes to think of the Israeli Admin as anything but Likud lately. Labour seems non existant and sadly the more moderate Israeli voices are given next to NO airtime. I have friends there, and many feel the same way and it seems both you and I do feel. I think it is of utmost importance that people realize that there is a difference between the Israeli Administration and her people, as well as the fact that not all Jews support the Occupation or the decisions of those who rule Israel these days. Thanks Higgly.

You make that sound as if it was Israel's fault. Those Palestinians are stranded there because of the Hamas-Fatah fighting. Ummm, Israel controls ALL the borders in the Occupied Territories - both the West Bank and Gaza. The PA has NO autonomy. So - yeah in this case it is Israel's fault. Cite reference for this? Even if some radical factions not associated with Hamas did continue (note NO deaths of Israelis involved) how does that relate to Hamas? It doesn't. Hamas held to the ceasefire - Israel did not - it's plain and simply a fact. Not much different than the ceasefire's terms which Israel is still violating wrt Lebanon.

You are welcome. As far as others here, I am not surprised that they may really believe that the stats involved are actually the other way around. Our media is VERY Israel centric. Very rarely (if ever) are these incidents and death tolls (including woundings) ever even mentioned. It's like all this violence on the side of the Palestinians happens in a vacuum, Israelis being the only victims acknowledged in the NA press. For those who are in disbelief, I truly invite them to look into the reports offered by B'TSelem, for instance here is the fatality page: http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp Just thought I would edit in this link as well - it's a little more detailed for the last week: http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900s...2S?OpenDocument

Worthless post. Though I sure don't expect much more than this from you. I guess you don't think that these sorts of actions have anything to do with why some folks in Palestine (The Occupied Territories) might just be a little leary of any kind of 'peace' the Israelis may offer? Peace = Dead or gone.

Then clearly the bridge collapse in Quebec (2006) was caused by Canadian spending on war in Afghanistan. In fact, disaster preparedness dollars for homeland security contributed to the well executed response in Minneapolis. But not much fun in that when it comes to Bush bashing. Probably not just the war in Afghanistan, but also the other crap our government wastes money on: bilingualism; mulitculturalism, PR for the sake of PR, Adscam you know all the junk our admins think will 'feel good' for the folks! Now, wrt to this bridge collapse (as well as other American infrastructure problems) see this article: Bush puts pinch on Domestic Spending President Bush yesterday proposed deep cuts to federal healthcare, education, and transportation programs, searching for new money in the federal budget to pay for increasingly costly defense programs and the war in Iraq. ******** So go ahead, Mr. Bush_Cheney2004, keep spreading your disinfo. Anyone can look up whether or not what you say has any validity. It's easy - because in this case YOU don't. Education, health care, emergency preparedness, and a litany of other governmental responsibilities have been placed on the back burner and seen budgets slashed in order to fund the illegal war in Iraq and the ongoing invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. Sorry - but you are wrong here. What about the current medi-cal problems in California? Hmmmm? Here's an interesting report filed two years ago wrt the bridges (and other vital infrastructure) in the US: http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/page.cfm?id=103 Between 2000 and 2003, the percentage of the nation's 590,750 bridges rated structurally deficient or functionally obsolete decreased slightly from 28.5% to 27.1%. However, it will cost $9.4 billion a year for 20 years to eliminate all bridge deficiencies. Long-term underinvestment is compounded by the lack of a Federal transportation program. There ya go.

IMO it most likely did. Just as the terrible response to the Katrina disaster was affected by most of the NG being in Iraq. Infrastructure is aging all over NA - not just in the US. Infrastructure is IMO something that the government actually SHOULD be responsible for - using OUR tax dollars. My heart goes out to those who were affected by this latest bridge distaster. Terrible.

Report: Thirty-four Palestinians, including two children, killed by Israeli army fire in July The report stated that 34 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli army during the month, among them two children. Five of the thirty-four were victims of extra-judicial assassination, while another two died when the ambulances transporting them to the hospital were detained at military checkpoints. In addition to the 34 killed, 85 civilians were injured in different Israeli military attacks. The PLO also reported that six homes were destroyed by the Israeli army. Three of the homes were in east Jerusalem, which the army claimed were built without the necessary permits. The other three were destroyed during military operations in the West Bank and Gaza strip. The Israeli army kidnapped 220 Palestinian civilians during the month of July, while Israeli settlers set fire to 250 dunums of agricultural land, causing the destruction of 2250 olive trees. Settlers also took over thirty dunums of agricultural land belonging to Palestinian farmers from villages near Hebron in the southern West Bank. The report stated that the Israeli army continued to invade, kill and kidnap throughout the month, targeting all sectors of Palestinian society, especially children. In one such incident, Israeli soldiers killed Ahmed Skafy, 15, while he was playing in front of his home with a plastic toy gun. *** Other figures can also be found at: B'TSelem This should really make one wonder about WHO is really wiping WHO off the map. I would also like to bring up the stranded Palestinians at the Rafah Crossing - 6,000 of them - many sick/elderly - in the sun - no shelter and not being allowed back into Israel. I would also like to mention that hospital and drug supplies are being choked off from Gaza. This has all the earmarks of a total siege and absolute humanitarian disaster. All because the Palestinians voted democratically for (according the Israel and the US) the wrong party. Talk about Chutzpah! Please keep in mind that it was Hamas who held to a ceasefire for over six months - all the while the IDF sonic boomed daily and nightly, launched incursions, extrajudicial assassinations and the usual checkpoint hassles (often leading to the loss of life of some innocent person). Take some time and explore B'Tselem, great site, great folks - these people are truly trying to work for peace.

Just for fun: Rapture Ready ack. Now - sharkman it is not only the 'fringe' who is writing about these folk. As I posted earlier there was recent piece in FOX News (hardly fringe but IMO hardly news either - but hey) If you google rapture christians you can find many more MAINSTREAM sources commenting on these End Times followers. It is not just a few small groups - this is what is alarming.

Hmmm.. This thread was the last post I made before being bannished from the Land of MLW Forums. I will finally answer your post Sulaco. I do not deny that Israel - or anyone else has the right to defend themselves. What I have problems with is the Israeli Admin's penchant for expansion of undeclared borders and the outright theft of Other's lands in the Occupied Territories - which is btw illegal according to international law. (I'll leave out the collective punishment since I believe it's already been mentioned). Israel is not the vunerable little land that she makes herself out to be. She is the worlds - yes the WORLD'S - fourth largest military power. She is armed to the teeth, and also has nuclear weapons capacity (ie both the nukes themselves and the delivery systems). IOW for anyone to come and attack Israel right now would be outright suicide for them. Give your head a shake. I have NO idea what the Germans have to do with this so you will have to clarify that. Unless if I can make a guess - that since so many Jews were sadly killed by the Nazis (mostly on Polish soil) that this for some kind of reason makes it OK to go and do what they are doing now? I dunno about you but in my books - two wrongs don't make a right.

What's his position on healthcare? I looked at his site and couldn't find it. Hi Skylock, There is this article on lewrockwell.com where Paul has been a contributing writer for years now - it might fill you in a little more about where he is coming from. IMO Dr. Paul is far more of a Libertarian than a Republican (at least he doesn't resemble the current neocon republicans running roughshod over the constitution as they are currently doing). If you google Ron and Healthcare you will find lots of stuff - he is a Doctor (OB GYN) so this issue hits close to home for him. As with his feelings on all government involvement he wants to see LESS of it - on all fronts. Not a bad idea IMO. BTW his nickname on the Hill is Dr. NO!!! (hee hee)

True. While we might indeed fall victim to American Propaganda, for some reason you tend to avoid references to the anti Western Propaganda which gives you your kicks. Interesting. But remember, [mis]information is a two street. The duality hypocrisy of man. So, you agree with the article - then chide me and make false accusations that I get my kicks from 'anti-western' propoganda?? Excuse me, but you have NO idea what I get my kicks from honey, so refrain from these sort of personal add-ons and discuss the article. (which you seem to agree with - following YOUR logic I guess you get your kicks from anti-western prop. too huh?) Now - see how silly your comment was?!

Sheesh Betsy - Do you actually ever read what someone writes - or just assume and wing it? I never said it didn't exist in other areas - extremism that is. What I said is that ALL major religions doctorines can be used to justify extremist beliefs and actions. Yeah, true enough - but this thread is about Christian extremism. How it is moving more into the mainstream (50,000,000) apparantly according to Fox, and the amount of political sway these KOOKS have. So your point is ... what?

Hi Skyhook, To be honest, Paul isn't advocating that abortion be made illegal - his own opinion is against abortion - but he still does advocate that these laws be made on a state by state basis, in a democratic fashion - ie let the people decide. I agree with you wrt a pro-choice stance at least for early term abortions (I don't agree with late term abortions unless the mothers' life is in danger). There are many on both sides of the fence (repub/dem) who want Paul silenced and have taken some things he has said out of context - you know the usual smear. Check out his site - there are articles there wrt the abortion issue. I don't think anyone will ever find a political rep. with whom they agree 100%. If my only bone to pick with Dr. Paul is that over the abortion issue then so be it. 9/10 ain't bad!!

Oh come on Kuzadd!! The hate the invaders for their FREEDOMS!!! (Certainly not the bombs and utter destruction of their country!)

For those of you who are a fan of Paul, here is the link to his site and this, his most recent article. If any man should be president of the US, Ron Paul is it! Caution: You are about to read a column by a politician who actually speaks the truth - please sit down so to avoid injury. Texas Straight Talk The Fear Factor by Ron Paul While fear itself is not always the product of irrationality, once experienced it tends to lead away from reason, especially if the experience is extreme in duration or intensity. When people are fearful they tend to be willing to irrationally surrender their rights. Thus, fear is a threat to rational liberty. The psychology of fear is an essential component of those who would have us believe we must increasingly rely on the elite who manage the apparatus of the central government. The statement “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety” has been attributed to Benjamin Franklin. It is clear, people seek out safety and security when they are in a state of fear, and it is the result of this psychological state that often leads to the surrender of liberty. As Washington moves towards it summer legislative recess, indications of fear are apparent. Things seem similar to the days before the war in Iraq. Prior to the beginning of the war, several government officials began using phrases like “we don’t want the smoking gun to come in the form of a mushroom cloud,” and they spoke of drone airplanes being sent to our country to do us great harm. It is hard to overstate the damage this approach does psychologically, especially to younger people. Of course, we now know there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, let alone any capacity to put them to successful use. To calm fears, Americans accepted the patriot act and the doctrine of pre-emptive war. We tolerated new laws that allow the government to snoop on us, listen to our phone calls, track our financial dealings, make us strip down at airports and even limited the rights of habeas corpus and trial by jury. Like some dysfunctional episode of the twilight zone, we allowed the summit of our imagination to be linked up with the pit of our fears. Paranoia can be treated, but the loss of liberty resulting from the social psychology to which we continue to subject ourselves is not easily reversed. People who would have previously battled against encroachments on civil liberties now explain the “necessity” of those “temporary security measures” Franklin is said to have railed against. *snip* How wonderfully refreshing it is to read the words of a true Patriot, true American and true Constitutionalist. It is no wonder that so many fear him. They should. He is a dose of sanity badly needed in the post 911 sociopathic governmental administrations. Now, if only we could find ourselves a Ron Paul for up here in Kanuckistan.

Uncle Chutzpah and His Willing Executioners on the Dire Iran Threat: With Twelve Principles of War Propaganda in Ongoing Service I ran across this older article and thought I'd throw it up here as I believe Mr. Herman makes some very valid points about the media's complicity wrt Administration lies and disinfo in the lead up to the Iraq War, the War on (some) Drugs and the upcoming desires for aggression towards Iran. an excerpt: uh huh.... Indeed. How easily some folks are to lead down the cottontrail, hippityhoppity - war is on its way! What was it Mr. Shrub said? Fool me once shame on me.... ?!

And the three men I admire most The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, They caught the last train for the coast The day the music died..... (in response to What would Jesus do?)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291330,00.html Here's a link to another piece about these folks. They're not as small of a group as some may think. I still say they are KOOKS though - and drunk on Groupthink. *sigh* not much different that any other fundamentalist group.

It's been settled and known for some time now that Tillman was killed by friendly fire. Whether it was an accident or on purpose, is, IMO not overly important as well as being somewhat beside the point here: The Administration LIED about it. Get it? They LIED wrt to his death - and continue to LIE. Funny - the whole war was based on LIES. Osama + 911 = LIE Iraq + 911 = LIE WMD in Iraq = LIE Yellowcake from Niger = LIE Mission Accomplished = LIE Now say it all together now: LIES, LIES and more LIES. That pretty much sums it up.

Hey jbg, I'd be happy with being banned from Daily Kos... my opinion of them has hitter the crapper lately. WRT banning without any notice - that's exactly what happened to me. I am still waiting for an explanation after three emails to Admin. Having also moderated a board or two myself - I have to say it took an awful lot for my recommendation to ban anyone - unless there was actual harrassment (overt sexual trolling or leaking of personal info) I don't agree with any kind of ban. Hey - but that's just me. How is your summer btw jbg?

American Woman - wrt sharkman's post above - some folk just hate cats. I have no problem with believing that animals "see" things differently amongst the Kingdoms. Have you ever seen the way insects "see" flowers? Who is to say that this little kitty can't "see" what's coming?

Nice post - I concur! Though you will find many people DO believe the left right nonsense!! Especially here.