kuzadd

Nope , apparently, they are not a myth, though they propogate a rather fanatical, frightful myth, delusional, etc., Clearly the Radical christians are self-made fanatics, with alot of help from religious leaders. Note: they are waiting for there reward? Note: in the film there dialogue wrt to the Jewish people.

what did you find fascinating about it? just wondering?

Yes, it is only the "left" that launches opposition actions, lol!!!! The "right" never does stuff like that , hahahahahahahahahaha I can't stop laughing at this, myself. Right wing opposition to sex education Right wing opposition to science Right wing bullying to teach 'creationism' can I go on. Doesn't the "right wing", believe in free speech? How about that "right wing" hullaballo about Janet Jacksons wardrobe malfunction, OMG, it was a breast, for a nanosecond! Who exactly is silencing opposition, education, and more? Pot-Kettle-black whine, whine whine.................

Just waiting for there "reward"! Like all good fanatics, I guess.

Time will tell how this saga plays out. It will be interesting to follow for sure. Kimmy: I am of the opinion varying points you made are simply non-credible. why: You seem to imply that the US/Britian should be influencing/backing leaders/"elections", deciding who leads another country entirely, interesting, for a person who claims to want to see a democratic/progressive government. Are there no leaders, WITHIN the country of Pakistan? Or are there no leaders, the West prefers? If the west is "courting" Ms. Bhutto isn't it logical that the West will gain, by doing this? Will the West will not then be the main benefactor of the Influenced/Backed government? Also, if the West, chooses to back these previous leaders,why? It leads one to conclude they will be malleable, therefore that is why they are approachable. Certainly Bhutto is not without corruption, thereby indicating she is likely to continue on a pattern of appeasement to the west, corruption, etc., BUT will this serve the Pakistani population? When the West interferes in elections, by "influencing", and we have a long history of this to peruse, we see leaders like the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Pinochet, Marcos, etc., I can't recall any of these western influenced leaders, benefited there populace. Murder's yes, purveyors of misery, yes. So again I really have to question why a believer in democracy, allegedly would support interference, from external influences? Bhutto's arrest warrant seem to emanate from another Pakistani prime Minister. She has also recently met with Mushareff, and there was an offer to allow him to stay on. curiouser and curiouser I fear, in your zealousness to discredit, it is yourself , you discredit, by taking an odd and anti-democratic stance.

http://www.icssa.org/article_detail_parse....d=1151&rel=1119 a compilation article The Real Face of Benazir Bhutto Swiss Government On July 23, 1998, the Swiss Government handed over documents to the government of Pakistan which relate to corruption allegations against Pakistan's opposition leader, Benazir Bhutto and her husband, Asif Zardari. The documents include a formal charge of money laundering and an indictment by the Swiss authorities against Mr Zardari. T Poland The Polish Government has given Pakistan 500 pages of documentation relating to corruption allegations against Benazir Bhutto and her husband, Asif Ali Zardari nickname of “Mr 10%”.[ii] These relate to concerns in the purchase of 8,000 tractors in the 1997 tractor purchase deal.[iii] According to Pakistani officials, the Polish papers contain details of illegal commissions paid by the tractor company in return for agreeing to their contract.[iv] It is said that the arrangement was initiated and "skimmed" Rs 103 mn rupees ($ 2.0 mn) in kickbacks from a scheme to make available inexpensive Polish tractors, in a bid to boost farming output, not to the farmers benefit ." The documentary evidence received from Poland confirms the scheme of kickbacks laid out by Asif Zardari and Benazir Bhutto in the name of (the) launching of Awami tractor scheme," APP said. Bhutto and Asif Ali Zardari received 7.15 per cent commission on purchase of tractors through their front men, Jens Schlegelmilch and Didier Plantin of Dargal S.A., who received about $1.969 million for supplying 5,900 Ursus Tractors. France Potentially the most lucrative deal uncovered by the documents involved the effort by Dassault Aviation, the French military contractor, to sell Pakistan 32 Mirage 2000-5 fighter planes. These were to replace two squadrons of American-made F-16s whose purchase was blocked when the Bush administration determined in 1990 that Pakistan was covertly developing nuclear weapons. In April 1995, Dassault found itself in arm's-length negotiations with Zardari and Amer Lodhi, a Paris-based lawyer and banker who had lived for years in the United States, working among other things as an executive of the now-defunct Bank of Commerce and Credit International. Lodhi's sister, Maleeha, a former Pakistan newspaper editor, became Bhutto's ambassador to the United States in 1994. Schlegelmilch, the Geneva lawyer, wrote a memo for his files describing his talks at Dassault's headquarters on the Champs-Elysees in Paris. According to the memo, the company's executives offered a "remuneration" of 5 percent to Marleton Business SA, an offshore company controlled by Zardari. The memo indicated that in addition to Dassault, the payoff would be made by two companies involved in the manufacture of the Mirages: Snecma, an engine manufacturer, and Thomson-CSF, a maker of aviation electronics. Middle East In the largest single payment investigators have discovered, a gold bullion dealer in the Middle East was shown to have deposited at least $10 million into one of Zardari's accounts after the Bhutto government gave him a monopoly on gold imports that sustained Pakistan's jewelry industry. The money was deposited into a Citibank account in the United Arab Emirates sheikdom of Dubai, one of several Citibank accounts used by Zardari. Notes: THE BHUTTO MILLIONS; A Background Check Far From Ordinary,January 9, 1998, Friday, By JOHN F. BURNS [ii] Timesonline:£4m Surrey mansion in Bhutto ‘corruption’ row, November 21, 2004, By Sian Griffiths [iii] EXPRESSindia.com:Poland gives Pak papers on $ 2-mn Bhutto bribe, REUTERS, Copyright © 1999 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd. [iv] World: South Asia Poland linked to Bhutto corruption charge, Friday, May 7, 1999. [v] DAWN.com:NAB says Swiss order names Benazir:Ursus tractor case, By Our Staff Reporter, 23 July 2004, He claimed that Ms Bhutto and Asif Ali Zardari received 7.15 per cent commission on purchase of tractors through their front men, Jens Schlegelmilch and Didier Plantin of Dargal S.A., who received about $1.969 million for supplying 5,900 Ursus Tractors. interesting couple.

I also found the comment section quite interesting and this one also

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenth...th_b_57826.html On July 16, I attended Christians United for Israel's annual Washington-Israel Summit. Founded by San Antonio-based megachurch pastor John Hagee, CUFI has added the grassroots muscle of the Christian right to the already potent Israel lobby. Hagee and his minions have forged close ties with the Bush White House and members of Congress from Sen. Joseph Lieberman to Sen. John McCain. In its call for a unilateral military attack on Iran and the expansion of Israeli territory, CUFI has found unwavering encouragement from traditional pro-Israel groups like AIPAC and elements of the Israeli government. But CUFI has an ulterior agenda: its support for Israel derives from the belief of Hagee and his flock that Jesus will return to Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon and cleanse the earth of evil. In the end, all the non-believers - Jews, Muslims, Hindus, mainline Christians, etc. - must convert or suffer the torture of eternal damnation. Over a dozen CUFI members eagerly revealed to me their excitement at the prospect of Armageddon occurring tomorrow. Among the rapture ready was Republican Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. None of this seemed to matter to Lieberman, who delivered a long sermon hailing Hagee as nothing less than a modern-day Moses. Lieberman went on to describe Hagee's flock as "even greater than the multitude Moses commanded." T I have covered the Christian right intensely for over four years. During this time, I attended dozens of Christian right conferences, regularly monitored movement publications and radio shows, and interviewed scores of its key leaders. I have never witnessed any spectacle as politically extreme, outrageous, or bizarre as the one Christians United for Israel produced last week in Washington. See for yourself. go to the link and watch the video, of the absolute brainwashed fanatics, it is frightful that the irrationally indoctrinated, are able to have as much political clout as they are.

Yes, the backing of a politicians opposition, would have nothing to do with enabling regime change to the backers benefit? Like that has never happened before?

Maybe that means they are criminals?

I know you love me darlin'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brent-budows...ad_b_58154.html Never has any philosophy been proven so wrong, so fatal, so disastrous for our country and so deadly for our troops as the views expounded by neoconservative theoreticians. In fact, one of the great specialties of the neoconservative movement is that so many who so ostentatiously failed to serve in the military, when their time came, so sneeringly question the patriotism of others, including those awarded medals for valor in combat. >>>> George Bush, Dick Cheney, and their fellow neoconservatives know better than Reagan about negotiating with enemies. They know better than Eisenhower about military industrial complexes. They know better than Ford about seeking diplomatic agreements to control the spread of weapons of mass destruction. They know better than Nixon about achieving breakthroughs with our major adversaries. Neoconservatives are very special people, in their own eyes. When things go wrong they become the party of perjury and pardons, the party of abuse of power and abuse of executive privilege to cover up their failures and crimes. Neoconservatives champion the politics of fear, desperately seeking to frighten the people to justify their attacks on freedoms guaranteed by statute and constitution. Neoconservatives embody the politics of profiteering, masterminding and organizing the most corrupt occupation in world history, staffed by ideological partisans, rewarding their campaign contributors, mismanaging tens of billions of lost and stolen dollars, under the imperial arrogance of a proconsul awarded the Presidential Medal Of Freedom. Neoconservatives know better than generals, with their contempt for the Geneva Convention and their actions that civilized people call torture. >>>>>>>>>>>> And then they try to keep their secrets. And then they lie about what they do. And then they bear false witness to Congress. And then they claim that criminal acts are protected by privilege. And then they complain when confronted by the law. And then they whine when juries convict their leaders of perjury and demand the first of many presidential pardons. And then they escalate their catastrophic war over the objection of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And now they want to continue this war in perpetuity and dump this disaster on the desk of the successor, to the man who calls himself the decider. The decider, funny!! And there they are, again, today, on the oped pages of the newspapers, in their discredited think tanks, on their hate ridden right wing radio, before the smirking courtiers of the cable networks, still claiming they are right and their deadly blunders must be escalated again, and again. Neoconservatism is dumb, discredited, and dead. While they cover up their dirty laundry, and plan their next wars, and hire their criminal attorneys, and lobby for their pardons, the clock is ticking, the day is coming, when a a grateful nation will celebrate their removal from the high councils of government, once and for all. Neoconservatism is dead.

Thanks Higgly! I thought it was quite interesting given what is going on at this time, wrt pakistan, but hey, apparently I am one of a few who are REALLY paying attention to the merry-go round, spinning and wondering when and where this is going to stop?

I understand why you obssess so over me,as well read as I am! But puhleez, you ASSUME wrongly , these (US Empire collapse)are the only books I read. why? so you THINK, you can demonize me BUT, per usual, you THINK in an incorrect manner. The only thing you accomplish is to make yourself, look like an assumptive fool! Right now I am reading a book on media. http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Believe-Lies-Be...s/dp/1932857060 Don't Believe It!: How Lies Become News (Paperback) I was going to read a book by Dr.Helen Caldicott, The New Nuclear Danger but I put it off, to read the above book I previously just finished a book on Terrorism in Italy prior to that a book on the 7/7 bombings (Britian) I don't play 'games', waste of my very precious time. Therefore I am unaware of this "the game Valkyrie Profile" please don't explain, I am completely uninterested! PLEASE KEEP OBSSESSING ON ME, IT FEEDS MY EGO. Wanna know what I am wearing today?? What I had for brekky??

oh and the other book, I have also read, and previously linked to. After the Empire The Breakdown of the American Order Emmanuel Todd is a researcher at the French National Institute for Demographic Studies. He is the author of numerous books, including The Final Fall: An Essay on the Decomposition of the Soviet Sphere and The Making of Modern France: Ideology, Politics, and Culture. with a foreword by , an American fellow! Michael Lind is the Whitehead Senior Fellow at the New America Foundation. He is the author of Made in Texas: George W. Bush and the Southern Takeover of American Politics and, with Ted Halstead, The Radical Center: The Future of American Politics. YUP, I am really alone in my thoughts, lol!

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people4/C...hnson-con2.html conversation with Chalmers Johnson, re: his books Chalmers Johnson, who is President of the Japan Policy Research Institute. A distinguished social scientist and public intellectual, he's the author of fifteen books, including Peasant Nationalism and Communist Power, a classic in Chinese studies, and MITI and the Japanese Miracle, a classic in Japanese studies. Professor Johnson is a former professor of political science at UC Berkeley, where he also served as chairman of the department and chair of the Center for Chinese Studies. book coverHe's an emeritus professor of political science at UC San Diego. His most recent books focus on American power in the world, and include Okinawa: Cold War Island; Blowback: The Cost and Consequences of American Empire; read this one, very good! Just published: The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic. YUP, I must be the only one noticing the already on it's way, irrelevance of the US. Me ,some astute observers on this forum, several professors,etc.,

http://www.counterpunch.org/sale02222005.html Imperial Entropy Collapse of the American Empire By KIRKPATRICK SALE It is quite ironic: only a decade or so after the idea of the United States as an imperial power came to be accepted by both right and left, and people were actually able to talk openly about an American empire, it is showing multiple signs of its inability to continue. And indeed it is now possible to contemplate, and openly speculate about, its collapse. The neocons in power in Washington these days, those who were delighted to talk about America as the sole empire in the world following the Soviet disintegration, will of course refuse to believe in any such collapse, just as they ignore the realities of the imperial war in Iraq. But I think it behooves us to examine seriously the ways in which the U.S. system is so drastically imperiling itself that it will cause not only the collapse of its worldwide empire but drastically alter the nation itself on the domestic front. All empires collapse eventually: wow,really!!! apparently some don't understand that bit o' history

back to thread topic! http://dir.salon.com/story/books/int/2002/...chan/index.html The decline and fall of the American empire An expert on geopolitics says forget Islamic terrorism -- the real future threat to America's supremacy will come from Europe "I know historians and scholars hate the word "inevitable," but you imply that sooner or later all great empires will fall. Is that right? If there's any trend that keeps coming back, it's that great powers come and go. No one stays at the top forever. Rome was a great empire with a huge territory under its weight for probably 300 to 400 years, which is a pretty long time. Some have come and gone much more quickly. One of the reasons that America's moment at the top will be short-lived is that history is moving much more quickly than it used to. The countries that get into the digital age go into fast-forward. If you take a snapshot of the world today and say, "A-ha! This is what the world's going to look like for the next century," it's very dangerous. Tomorrow could look very different."

tsk tsk betsy. at least you acknowledge, you and others have spent 2 pages talking about me, and you are still at it! it's incredible! Look, I hate to break it to you, I am a married heterosexual . Sorry to break your heart :-( I hope you can get over me, and move on with your life. I do hold out my hand in friendship to you though, but, JUST as friends.

YUP, I believe that, but, do you really???? I also don't need religion to tell me that. That is correct, ethically, morally and scientifically.

Charles Anthony: Ooppps, sorry, I thought I had trimmed enough, but, gonna have to trim more. I'll try , I'll try.......... (it takes time to get out of bad habits though)

I am not embarrassed at all by it, but , you should be. But not in the co-dependant way you speak of (for me) You should be embarrassed for yourself. Look at the topic of this thread. Though, I tried repeatedly to stay on topic. what did you ,betsy, whitedoors et al do? You and others spent approx two pages talking about me kuzadd this, kuzadd that, look through the thread. Then understand why, you should be embarrassed for yourself. Not me honey, you wanna pay that much attention to me, as opposed to the actual topic?! laugh at yourself, for behaving so foolishly. thereby giving me the chance to have even more fun.

Um, ok? actually the song pays homage to "the hard workin' people" it's an ode to the salt of the earth. Did anyone say anything to the otherwise? Out of Time By Jagger/Richards "You don't know what's going on You've been away for far too long You can't come back and think you are still mine You're out of touch, my baby My poor discarded baby I said, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time" great song!

Hmmm..... where to start? First, my opinions: 1) I really like The Rolling Stones too. However, I have paid very little attention to them after Wyman left. I liked them much more before Taylor left and I think they were their best before Altamont. 2) I despise the irresponsible and excessive repetition of quotes in quotes and quotes and quotes in quotes and quotes in quotes and quotes in quotes and quotes as exemplified by the last few replies in this thread. Now, for my postings, I encourage everybody to read the following threads: Using the [ Quote ] Feature: Avoid using more too many quotes! Trim Your Posts and Quotes -- Don't just hit "Reply" which go through details on how to tidy up the formatting. "Avoid using more too many quotes!" guilty as charged, but take note, to this post!!! (oh, ya!!!) wrt: The Stones?? If you would indulge me?? Fave Album: Exile on Mainstreet and that is tough, cause I am also a huge beggars banquet fan. et tu?

no I am actually not saying that, I am saying I am of the opinion there are a disproportionate amount of them within the christian family. I don't think it is sensationalism, I think, it is accurate, to say that. Being a religious leaders is a "career" comparable to No other career. These religious leaders are not only representative of their congregations , the church at large, and by extension, God on earth, there "flock" look to them for leadership, moral guidance and more. People putting themselves, by choice in these positions, willingly accept, that 1: they will live a moral upstanding life 2: will be an example to the communities they LEAD. In my own community, two example I know of publicly, who really nows what else has gone on? 1: priest having homosexual affair, with politician and stealing money for the church 2" priest having affair with young girl both associated with the religion,church of my youth. Now that is 1 church, in one city. Thinking of all the scandals and the scale of them, worldwide, I am of the opinion, that chrisitanity has issues!