kuzadd

Does it get 'better' ? I mean if you say so. So oppression, occupation, subjugation and denial of human rights of other human beings by people drunk on god and power in this alleged advanced enlightened time of humanity is 'downright mild" If you say so

Gush Shalom and Rabbis for Human Rights Rabbis for Human Rights NA people cooperating together, people facing reality. the video is about 9 minutes long but is really worth watching.

It is interesting BC that you equate, particularly in the colonisation of the North America, rabidly religious people, came to a "new world" and engaging in mass slaughter of the indigenous people. Same scenario, at least you get it. What is the definition of insanity, oh yes, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Hey dub, you have some real admirer's here, dub this and dub that, they don't talk on topic of illegal settlements, and the fact that the annexation of Palestine is not recognized whatever, just dub, dub, dub. a round of applause all around for you!!!

I like how Israel just flipped the US the bird personally. Thanks for all the money now, get lost. (biggest beneficiary of US taxpayer largesse) Priceless.

So mistakes made in the past can be replayed as long as the acceptable victims are done in??

Apparently. Or is it security? Maybe it is in the name of peace?

Pliny the comment about thanking GWB , I don't really know how you intended it. But it was Bush that resided over the massive housing bubble, but not just resided over it, out and out encouraged it, and bragged about it. He also encouraged Americans to go shopping. Most noticeably and inappropriately right after 9/11. That was an odd time to make such a statement Don't worry, go shopping? And the Americans did. George Bush, continued to de-regulate housing and financial markets and bragged about the results at the 2004 Republican convention, saying: Bush again:White house conference on increasing minority homeownership I don't know that George Bush should be thanked for anything except getting the country into a big mess, a calamity.

sorry, fixed it

actually that should have been security, as opposed to shelter. though you may claim that the church besides being the safest house, is also shelter. whatever, six of one, half a dozen of the other

for reasons of not listening to main stream economists who it was pretty obvious were bullshitting massively. because the facts on the ground were not matching the rhetoric. because I was paying attention. really paying attention. Nope I am not thanking George Bush or Obama. Because it isn't over, and I am hoping the decisions taken will give me and my family some shelter, but, I am not so sure it will be entirely possible to be unscathed.

yah, actually I recall myself, starting a post here, way back, about how serious this economic crisis may just get, and let's see. some comments I recall getting you hate the USA "tinfoil hat" the US will take care of everything I mentioned how the banks bundled the bad mortgages they intentionally went after committing fraud, and spreading their misery globally. but ya know, whatever.... I just hate the US but then, also paid the house off, and am debt free, moved investments to safer grounds.

However: Expansionist Israel, same old same old. Yawn, how obvious is this tired routine getting? Oh and I like this picture! image Feelin the love

Bonam, despite you bogus claims, and there have been so many, I clarified my statement so there would be no misunderstanding. I call it an apartheid wall, because that is exactly what it is, what it is intended for. It is to cut Palestinians off from their land, to isolate them, and to imprison them. It is called exactly the name it is. As opposed to all those already displaced? So Israel can displace Palestianians and that is ok with you? But those displaced via illlegal occupation can just stay displaced, one big difference....... Israel made a choice to usurp land, Israel can deal with the consequences of it's chosen action. There is no victimhood to be had there, Israel chose willingly as policy to steal land illegaly and displace millions and milllions of Palestinians. If the people become displaced through correction of Israel's course of illegal actions, that is Israel's problem isn't it? You seem to have no problem when other persons are illegaly displaced from their lawful homes? Attacked with illegal weapons, segregated, apartheid roads forced onto their property, oh that is all hunky dory, right Bonam. And some of your statements, positively reek of entitlement "Perhaps they could have negotiated with Israel over the course of a few years to slowly allow increased self-determination for the territory of Gaza," NO answer ever given, though you suggest time limits for Palestinians. Why should they not be subject to the exact same land claims and right of return as Israel extends. I see no reason why not, equality for all! Not onesidedness Bonam, The Palestinians are equally entitled to what the Israelis are, no more and no less. That is equality, and that is what you cannot accept. Are you suggesting that they are somehow less entitled to their land, their livelihood. Why yes, I believe you are, and have always have been.

I see where you may possibly be confused, but your question on what I consider Israel's borders leads me to believe you understand perfectly well what it is I am saying. However, since I don't dig the defamation, I will clarify, I am speaking of settlers and the Israeli governments policy. Hope that clears things up? I am saying the country of Israel has moved beyond their lawful borders The settlers who are Israelis are outside of their borders. And they are Israeli aren't they? Being outside of the borders is government policy, see the apartheid wall, and funding for the settlers in the occupied territories. Expansionism is part and parcel of Israels agenda and though not entirely supported by all Israelis, the dream of a greater Israel is one that far too many decent people have been indoctrinated with. Do I accept the existence of Israel? Yup! What borders do I consider Israel's? check the map.See the borders that were given in the Partition, those are the lawful borders. Those are the internationally recognized borders of Israel.

"most of the west bank", you mean what is not being stolen by Israel, my how gracious of you, again with the entitlement Bonam, that is not the way it works for Israel, their 'claim' on the land was extended to persons who never ever set foot on it, lots of Europeans, where as the Palestinians were displaced by the colonisers. As in they actually lived on the land. Therefore as long as Israel's claim to the land extends multi-generations to people who never set foot on the land, it should be the palestinians equal right to extend land claims generations also, since all of them were from that land.

UH, no it is the fact that they are outside of their borders and occupying another group of people and their land that makes them be self-righteous colonisers. see map of an occupation above.

It is not an illusion that Israel is a colonialist nation, with a strong sense of entitlement, (brought on by God and alot of overblown self-righteousness) the facts and the map shows it quite clearly, so I am unsure what you are saying Mapping the occupation-fully interactive And for anyone that may be interested here is a good little documentary Jan 2003- Imperial Geography-palestine

Wether you or I 'believe' is irrelevant, I am not talking nosensical "beliefs" I am talking actions, actions speak louder then words and the actions of Israel speak clearly for themselves.

Bonam, that is not the question and you know it. How long does Israel's land claim last? How much time Bonam? The Palestinians land claim, should last as long as Israel's right?

How would the Palestianisn know this? Common Sense. Israel with it's long term expansionist agenda, suddenly pulls the settlers out?? come on, how obvious did it have to be? They got their people somewhat out of harms way, they can't cut off food and medicine and all manners of life necessities strangling and starving the population and leave some illegal settlers there, I mean what would this look like??? Well it would be obvious that not only do they not care about the Palestinians a few settlers are also expendable. But that would be to obvious. Security is not their concern, expansionism is. The facts speak for themselves, no rhetoric is necessary.

what a crock, Israel pulled the settlers out of Gaza because they were planning to control Gaza in the most miserable way possible. As they still are. Also quite likely they intended to launch an attack. Israel never relinquished control of Gaza, that is an obvious fact to this very day. Good god man read your own words "Perhaps they could have negotiated with Israel over the course of a few years to slowly allow increased self-determination for the territory of Gaza" If Israel wanted to be nice enough just maybe??? why should they have to, it is their land!?? YOu don't grasp that do you? You have such a colonialist mind-set, such a sense of entitlement, you actually said that?? Your words Palestinians could have negotiated with Israel, perhaps?? Wow isn't that swell of Israel to maybe, perhaps, allow the Palestinians in their own land to the right of self-determination. Spoken in your own words better get over and read the propaganda dictionary, that is a word that does not work.

Bonam I will ask again, how many generations does a land claim last for Israel???? Please answer? YOu have ignored it, I would like to see you answer. How many generations does a land claim last for Israel?????

KK: the person writing the opinion piece has quoted sections of the global language dictionary. The idiot who wrote the opinion piece as you so eloquently mention quoted that section from the global language dictionary example You attribute this to that is from the dictionary, and I already explained where to find it. go to page 8 of the dictionary The fellow espousing his opinion may have based his opinion on this from page 8 of the dictionary, but these are not his words. This is where you are confused it seems? The word subordination is from the global language dictionary. Go to the page and read the passage yourself. Now explain to me, how a dictionary of manipulative language useage has come to be interpreted by you as something else?? As I have already asked.

this is what you quoted in your post I already brought it forward once, but here it is again the word subordinated came from the global language dictionary You agree the Palestinians and Israeli's should be equals. That is what you seem to be saying with this "Ultimately there should be complete equality Kuzadd." I agree, but that is not what is in the document. That section you quoted from is from the "words that don't work" section. IN that section using words like that is discouraged. There is also nothing there about legitimate discourse That is clear, in the words that don't work section, it talks about not using these words because they don't work. Those words fuel the fire to quote again from the global language dictionary, there is nothing, zero, zilch about legitimate building, or legitimate controls being given to Palestinians, there is nothing there about being equals. It all boils down to saying the right things and nothing more, and this book doesn't pretend otherwise, which still has me wondering how are you drawing the conclusions that you are??

...... in this post you quote from the report QUOTE “We are prepared to allow them to build…...” If the Palestinians are to be seen as a trusted partner on the path to peace, they must not be subordinated, in perception or in practice, by the Israelis. what are you agreeing with that Israel is prepared to allow them (palestinians) to build. You ask me if I disagree with this? I am not sure what specifically you are asking me wether I disagree or not?? the "we are prepared to allow them to build" Or the fact that their should be no perception of subordination? clarify?