kuzadd

that is exactly why that comment was made, it is a smear, commonly used by persons who cannot rationally discount the information so they attack the provider. What was to be gained? It was a hijack and switch the topic.

I was just thinking of the irony here. The people who are okeydokey with torture as committed by the US, were aghast at the alleged torture committed by Iraq. Or so they claimed. But one always needs that propaganda to get the dupes on board, the crazy train. And the American torture is so well documented. Like they couldn't help but smile for the cameras with such glee. Identifying themselves so perfectly. I guess it is safe to say, to them, the right or wrong of torture depends on who is doing it, and who it is being done to? Not that the users of excuses really were concerned with Iraquis, they weren't, they were just so hot for war with Iraq, they could and did use any excuse to justify the attack. You know like GWB spouting about Saddam, or Rumsfeld, but then they are ok'ing torture at every turn, hell they even used Saddams jails to do so. Pot meet Kettle. Kettle meet Pot.

wrt the torture abuses and Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo: the obama administration, like it's predecessor the Bush adminstration, wished to hide the attrocious abuses on the grounds that the release of the photos would create problems in the Arab world. Therefore both administrations were and are acknowledging that the actions undertaken by the US do indeed contribute to troubles in the ME. They boldly acknowledge it! Which is something far too many wish to deny. But, one of the real issue to my mind is one of control in a public relations sense of the word. The US administrations need their gullible followers to believe, like zealots, that they are the righteous. The torture photos make that type of belief difficult for all but the most hate hardened minds. Secondly, to release the prisoners from Guantanamo, whom it is safe to say,most , like at Abu Ghraib have only committed the crime of being Arab, would be another public relations nightmare. Because the ones, the very few that have been released speak of the horrendous abuses at the hands of their american captives. This is really all the US administration cares about! Be it Obama, or Bush before him. Not the arabs, not peace in the ME, what they care about is that their believers keep on believing and they can hold up their alleged moral righteousness, of which they really have none, as long as they can keep these abuses, murders and rapes from the public eye, as much as possible, for as long as possible. So to maintain the illusion, they take the actions they feel they have to. Not the right ones, not the moral ones, the necessary to the illusion ones.

WIP makes a really good point. "And what would you have to say if a future administration decided to use these techniques on "domestic terrorists?" The precedent for their use has already been established, and a future government may decide that they are proper techniques to use on other enemies besides bearded Arabs." Their precedent for use has been established, hell, it has been cheered by gullible fools. I wonder if the supporters of these tactics will be cheering the abuse on, when they are watching their own children be raped, sodomized and possibly killed.

Gosh, I don't think Obama hates his country, he loves it so much, he just carries on the work of every previous administration, including the Bush regime. And Bush loved America, and American companies. I mean look at Obama, does nothing on the torture carried out under the bush admin, nothing on Guantanamo, increases the troops in Afghanistan, attacks Pakistan, increases the war budget, the black ops budget has grown under Obama, he bailed the banks just like Bush, sticks it to the working class just like Bush.. So either Bush hated America, as does Obama, or they both love America and Obama infact loves America a little more?? Particulary the miliatary aspect. More likely the entire premise of this opening post is to play off the bogus left/right divide with pointless and nonsensical crap. Yup!

dub have you seen this article? How Americans Think About Torture - and Why ? It can be used to sell anything, like illegitimate wars. It is difficult to accept that so many can swallow up mass manipulation so easily but it happens everyday with ordinary marketing and it works so well, so it is no surprise that with just the right persuasion people can be "convinced" that torture is legitimate and righteous when it is no such thing.

oh and dub, one more thing, there is a nice feature on this forum, it is ignore. and you ignore the ignorant, which I do when I come here, which is rarely anymore. It is good to pass what is absolutely not worth the time reading, inane drivel, off topic deflectors, incivility, personal attacks. Then at least the very few that will actually discuss you can direct attention to having a rational discussion.

dub: the torture photos part two and again we see the mildest of the mild shown publicly, but there are worse far worse. Ask yourself this, why do so many change the subject? Why do so many deny the torture? Why do so many use the label terrorists, when it is widely known and widely reported that most of the people in Abu Ghraib and the other torture havens were innocent persons just rounded up? there is but one reason for these denials, fear, fear within these persons, Jerry Seinfeld, and others, fear to look in the mirror and face the fact that there is a monster and it is them! They stand no moral higher ground, the support beastiality, rape, child rape, they support forcing people to have homosexual sex, the encourgage the use of excrement to be smeared on others, they support all manners of beatings, electrocution. They wantonly lust for it. As long as they don't have to be faced with it. But then when faced with it, their fear, that they are the very monsters, they claim others to be. Then they have to go into denial mode, anything to deny their support of attrocities. This is their method of saving face. Of saving their psyches. It is a delusion they have created for themselves. They will attack others and lash out all around them, take the subject off topic and any other face saving method they can use, to alleviate the rot that has taken over their brains. They are deep into their psychosis. They are filled with hatred and are the terrorists. And that scares the crap out of them! Watch, and read their reactions.

rue, rue, rue.... Hamas has stated they will recognize Israel within it's 67 borders, link provided from a credible source. But since, Israel doesn't even recognize those borders Israel can continue to make the claim that Hamas doesn't recognize Israel. smoke and mirrors. But, rue, what borders does Israel recognize for itself? Where does it see it's countries borders located rue?? The illegal apartheid wall expanded Israel's border, and since that is still being constructed at Israel's whim and will... Where does Israel's border lie, exactly. What does Israel say about their borders? Where are they?? Oh and when has Israel recognized Palestine? Answer: never even a hint of it. Why: If they recognized Palestine they could not continue to expand into Palestinain territory. Like the latest west bank land grab. Israel's secret plan for West Bank expansion France 'concerned' at expansion of West Bank settlement No more make-believe in the Middle East "Settlement construction, (illegal) including the massive developments encircling Jerusalem, has continued for four decades. All of Bibi's predecessors – even the "doves" – never once slowed settlement construction, despite their repeated assurances. Throughout, despite intensive US monitoring and reporting on growth, the US has always pretended to believe them. All smoke and mirrors and it always has been.

as opposed to the hatred some possibly most Israelis have for Palestinians?? That they refuse to diffuse?? And so they steal land, land that is beyond their official borders, which of course Israel doesn't recognize anyway. Yup, that is right they just plain don't recognize borders between their land and Palestinian land. So they just move into other people lands, they just expand onto them, they occupy them. Well when you don't recognize the borders or the people who live beyond those borders, I suppose that is what you do?? Just move on over. Hamas has IN FACT said they will recognize Israel within the '67 borders Hamas: We’ll recognize Israel within '67 borders The problem is Israel does not accept their lawful borders, their '67 borders, they want all of the land, and just take it. so stop with the hogwash, Israel has the recognition from hamas they want within their lawful borders. The problem? Israel doesn't accept those borders, themselves! cut the rhetoric.

the world has ALLOWED them to decide for themselves?? wow, wasn't that generous of the world to ALLOW people to chose for themselves?? I mean really, the world allowed them to choose???? thank-you for perfectly demonstrating the attitude of superiority, white christian superiority. wonderful to be so indoctrinated that one doesn't even recognize it in the language one uses ?? maybe one day, in the not so far off future, someone will ALLOW Canadians to choose and then punish us for not choosing the pre-approved government, that is actually of someone elses choosing. the backwards, upside down kind of world, that you seem to think is ok?

why tango, recognizing a democratically elected government, one chosen by the people, that is outrageous! Outrageous to think the Palestinians actually get to chose anything Better to be an imperialist, or a colonialist and think that others should make the decisions? Or perhaps better to be an out and out racist with a superiority complex , who can just chose to kill them all, turn the desert into glass, rather then let the indigenous people decide for themselves? Don't you know it is the decision of Israel and the US?? Yes they get to chose for other people! They get to decide. and they get to torture too, in all their infinite superiority, they get to inflict horrific torture. Of course, they have all the guns don't they? All the big guns, so if the Palestinians don't go along, they can get along, you know move on. Nobel Laureate Accuses Israel of 'Ethnic Cleansing' INCREDIBLE GRILLING OF UK DIPLOMAT!, by a UK journalist funny Israel backs down over white phosphorus Israel defies US and destroys Palestinian home

your words are here on this forum for anyone to dig through and find, and myself, I have seen them, including the foolish statement made right in this thread about the death of tomlinson..

anyone watch it? any comments about the interview? the info in the interview?

when one is subservient in totality to the "powers that be" whatever and whomever that may be government, corporation, they can make as many excuses, justify as much abuse as necessary

your toaster is fully engaged, ready to take whatever official crumbs come your way. Including the most recent egg on your face the Tomlinson farce. I recall all your most embarassing moments for you, but, I will allow that it is your choice to be a fool as often as you like thrive on it YYEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHH!

they are lying, and this is nothing new. They are only sorry they were caught And they conspired to cover-up. They created an official story, and they stuck to it. Despite the evidence of an outsider. It isn't the first time and it won't be the last. self-preservation is a strong instinct. especially when a number of individuals are complicit

Amazingly no one has posted this video here, it is quite informative. A Bill Moyers interview with Bill (William K) Black. It is quite an excellent interview. Isn't anyone wondering why the automakers have to be penalized and the autoworkers ostracized, but the banks can do no wrong, are asked to give up nothing? And are the biggest benefactors of tax payer dollars largesse in the biggest wealth transferal program for the poor to the rich??? No one wonders that???? Hmm, no wonder the world is wonky? Well spend 30 minutes, watch and learn.

Mdancer: how often are you demonstrably wrong? It is quite hilarious. wrong on wmd's, wrong on the dangerous boats alleged to be Iranian threats, wrong on the British sailors being 'kidnapped' by Iran (spying), wrong in this situation, I mean you spend more time being wrong then right??? Is there any funny part at all to this story? Really? A man dies, and you find a bogus story about protestors funny? The protestors helped Tomlinson while the cops stood there. What I think is funny, no, out and out hilarious is how you fall for bogus stories put out by authority figures over and over and over and over. Your not alone, though, no you are not alone. You have lots of cohorts here, who believe without question the stories put out by authority, (government) and they have been lies, out and out fabrications. Tomlinson, Maher Arar, The taser incident, Iraq wmd's, scary Iranian boats and on and on and on. What will it take for you to take a leap, think for yourself, question the authority figures? How many times can one person be fooled and still 'believe'?? Well it is all good for a laugh, if nothing else, hardee, har har. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, well can't get fooled again. Not you, even gwb said not more then twice, but you can get fooled over and over and over and over "You will get fooled again"! YEEEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Is this one of your moral authorities??? Rabbi Ovadia Yosef You sound like him.

yes move on. That is what the white christian superior race has done, moved on, have you missed it? On to the next genocide, verbatim. that is what those who prefer finger pointing denial mode do, they move on, pretend their killings are somehow less criminal , or more justified then the lives they have taken or destroyed Then they sit in church and pray to their God, to keep them safe. The irony of it all.

hmm just reading through this thread.... Yes, the white christian fold ensured the deaths and disappearance and destruction of an indigenous culture. But! It was done for all the 'right' reasons, god, country, religious and ethnic superiority???? So why question these actions? Right august 1991? well tango, interesting topic, but the people who believe they are superior in every way shape or form, don't like to have their ugly little imperfections pointed out to them. It causes them to go into finger pointing denial mode.

also take a look at the official story regarding the taser death of the fellow at the airport, the rcmp CONSPIRED to cover up their unnecessary attack on that man. Then through the entire hearing they continued to lie, lie lie. shamefaced. It was incredible. Again had someone on the outside not stepped forward with contradictory evidence their official conspiracy theory would have held sway. These law enforcement officers, who freely break the law, should be ashamed and also they should be made to be responsible, culpable

hi kactus: I didn't imply that you said that, that was initially the official story and the official story was baloney

hmm if I recall one of these men tortured the alleged 9/11 mastermind, lol, under torture of course admitted to a whole slew of incidents and crimes, I think some of them either never happened or someone else was charged, something along that line. Which makes it obvious torture doesn't work. KSM claims, "I was responsible for planning, training, surveying, and financing for the New (or Second) Wave of attacks against the following skyscrapers after 9/11: ...Plaza Bank, Washington state." KSM was arrested in March 2003. According to the Plaza Bank's website, the organization was founded in early 2006, and yet he plotted to attack Plaza Bank 3 yrs before it's existence. Man, he must be psychic also, I mean really and truly psychic. Oh well as long as the gullible belive his "confession" given of his own free will