Born Free

I know its hard for you Morris but try to get past your stupor and be civil. At least give some lip service that you actually understand the underlying issue concerned in this thread. That is.... -Did CSIS interrogate tortured Detainees? -As an add-on from previous allegations...Did Canadian forces turn over prisoners to Afghan authorities knowing that they would be likely tortured and did nothing to ensure that torture wouldnt take place? Clearly you now seem to understand that ALL prisoners/detainees (no exclusions) are to be accorded the rights of the Geneva Convention and that Canada as a signatory has the obligation to honour those rules.

This isnt about that Morris. Its about what happened in Afghanistan. Criminals arrested in Canada have been known to end up in Syria and tortured....

Perhaps...perhaps not....but that is not what this is all about. Its about what allegedly transpired in Afghanistan. Canadian military brass have tried to obfuscate bad stuff before and they are definitely capable of doing it again. This needs to be aired out in the public eye.

As usual Morris, you decide to attack the poster when the facts get in the way of your brain washed belief system.

What I am saying is that the government needs to open up and show some integrity over the matter of alleged torture of prisoners.....regardles of who did the torturing. I am also saying that this matter is reminiscent of the "Somalia affair" where the media was stonewalled by the Canadian top brass (Generl Boyle). I suggest that this is very possibly happening once again. I know you dont think its an issue but lots of us do. If there is no basis behind the story, then Harper shouldnt be concerned about delving into the matter in a public manner. Frankly, I think he is worried. He probably doesnt like what he already knows.

Actully I am right. Untill such time as they are tried.... (except POWs )the Geneva conventions apply. Saboteurs & spies are examples. Ergo, handing over prisoners/detainees who have yet to be tried to people you know that are known to torture prisoners is against the rules. THAT is essentially what the issue is and what Harper is tring to duck away from.

Yes. Yes. It all sounds so familiar. I recall when the military brass stonewalled the media about the "Somalia problem". General Boyle got caught with his proverbial hands in the cookie jar. Turned out that the media pretty well had it right back then. No reason to think otherwise today. Of course some will refuse to do any dot connecting when it could lead to some bad shit happening.

You've been the one to define the Taliban as bandits and terrorists. Even if they are the evil bastards everyone assumes they are, they are still to be accorded all the rules of the Geneva convention. "It requires humane treatment for all persons in enemy hands, without any adverse distinction. It specifically prohibits murder, mutilation, torture, cruel, humiliating and degrading treatment, the taking of hostages and unfair trial." If a Canadian soldier turns their captive (regardless of what their involvement might or might not be) over to a group of people who are known to employ torture, that is breaking the Geneva convention. Any Canadian military personnel pleading ignorant to that is either lying or shouldnt be in a combat zone. I have previously posted six reasons why this should be so.

The conventions apply to both combatants and non-combatants.

The Geneva Conventions apply to:- -wounded or sick fighters -prisoners of war -civilians -medical and religious personnel Take a peek.....and then you can move on.... Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949. http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5 Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions: (1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

Perhaps this is dumb enough for YOU. Art 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions: (1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely.

Precicely!!!

You should step back ..... take a deep breath and as Harper would do....recalibrate. If you need to have Canada's international responsibilities explained to you with respect to the treatment of prisoners/detainees/civilians, etc, then just ask. I will give you all the details and perhaps you just might not need to recalibrate so often.

Not often enough as far as I'm concerned. The two things I like about Harper is his face...

That's not leadership. Thats a bunch of skills. Management is employing the right people to perform those skills. Leadership is getting the people to execute those skills to the very best of their ability. The concepts of Free Trade is not revolutionary and macro economics experts are plentiful. However, putting Oh Canada on the domestic agenda was a resounding demonstration of incredible leadership and foresight.

If thats the best you have to offer....so be it. They are often refered to as detainees because until they are actually accused of something, they are detainees. Not all of the prisoners are POW's. Some of them are citizens accused of something because another prisoner named them after being tortured.....if you get the idea...

Such unenlightened silliness.... Canada is a signatory of the Geneva Conventions and thus are obliged to uphold them. Why you ask should we ensure that detainees are treated humanely.....? One – We believe that we are a humane culture and that by signing the Geneva Convention we are obligated to follow that rule of law. Occupying the moral high ground requires some effort. Two – It makes it easier for our government officials to discuss human rights issues with foreign governments, particularly as they apply to detained Canadians. Three – Abused detainees who were not particularly sympathetic to the Taliban faction will likely remuster to the Taliban and take some folks within their extended family and tribe with them. Those who were keen Taliban won’t likely have any useful attitude adjustment although abuse will no doubt add to their enthusiasm. If there is a “hearts and minds” effort in progress, the abuse of Afghans by Afghans is clearly counterproductive. Four – An enemy who knows that surrender means torture is more likely to fight than surrender. Live prisoners are better than enemies who won’t ever give up and would rather fight to the death. Generals should know this and act accordingly. Five – Negotiating the future of any NATO soldiers captured by the Taliban will not be enhanced by a record of detainee abuse by the NATO supported Afghan government. Six – Detainee abuse is simply unprofessional. If we say we don’t do it we need to ensure that it does not happen to people we detain.

.... you mean like changing the lyrics of Oh Canada?

Relax. Harper was merely recalibrating the words to Oh Canada...

I’ll try to connect as many dots for you as I can Morris without making this an essay... General Hillier was responsible to see to it that his detainees (even those transferred to other groups) were treated in accordance with Geneva Conventions – It was not to keep his eyes firmly shut and in essence then declare that he did not see or hear of any torture….especially when he knew the reputation of the Afghan folks. The CO who waits for bad things to happen instead of taking action to see that bad things do not happen is sure to have lots of bad things happen. Hillier didn’t do what he was supposed to do. We all know that MacKay personally knew of possible prisoner torture by the Afghans when he was Foreign Minister. He heard it from the International Red Cross folks. It should have been a red flag for his generals especially when he eventually became Defense Minister. It was reported back in November 2009 that some of Colvins 2006 emails to MacKay’s office have been seen by news people and they clearly outline Colvins concerns over prisoner treatment. General Natynczyk’s testimony is rather interesting…I have taken it from another news article… Chief of Defence Staff Walter Natynczyk today, who said not only was it known Afghan police abused prisoners but that one in particular had been handed over by Canadian troops. Natynczyk said new information arrived on his desk today after telling a parliamentary defence committee Tuesday that a prisoner beaten by Afghan police had not been in Canadian custody before he was handed over in May 2006. "The moment I saw this report this morning I realized that the information I provided yesterday was incorrect and I am responsible for that," said the general, adding the report also noted that prisoner abuse by Afghan police was known. This means that the Harper government’s declaration that there were no credible reports of Canadian detainees being abused once they were handed over to Afghan authorities was a complete fabrication. We all know now that the Harper gang of political thugs then declared that Colvin was duped and that he was not credible…. Then later he was threatened by government officials if he testified as well as threatening his career even when they knew they couldnt. Nice.

Then it can only be because you have a blind eye or two.

You wouldnt happen to be one of those crappy US military intelligence guys who just cant connect dots... would you?

Its already been given...

.... and the dish ran away with the spoon...

They did indeed lie. You just dont want to know it.