Born Free

I'm not arguing whats goin on on the ground. My argument with him is that aint nuthin' gonna change. The tribal culture will reign supreme. As far as the conditions on the ground are concerned....we've been there over 8 years now with the strongest, deadliest and best equipped forces that the world can assemble. The Taliban are still there and its still ugly. If that doesnt tell you anything ... nuthin' will. I remind you that the war in Iraq is supposedly over yet the slaughter continues at the same rate as during the Saddam regime. The difference being now is that deaths are far more public. 60 or so people mass murdered this week alone.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. As far as I'm concerned, I have made no judgement as to whether he was or wasnt tortured. Thats what a trial is for. If his lawyers say they arent sure, then you can bet I'm not sure either. What I have been outspoken on is the fact that he's never had a trial and it should be done sooner rather than leter. If he's guilty of the crime, then set the sentence, put him away and move on. Clearly we have a group of overzealous intel guys who have twice screwed things up rather badly. Of course I refer to the Arar case and now this one.

OK. I'll bite. Whats an AG?

Let me quote you....So it must be true, shit Churchill said so...to which i say bullshit I have talked about it with an Afghani who now lives here in Toronto. I'll take his word for how the tribal war lords operate there. I'll also accept that his views are rather consistent with those of Churchill 100 years ago.

What court? Who are you refering to when you say ... "if they could have proven it they would have." According to you, Omars lawyers have stated that Omar may heve been tortured. You are now claiming that must mean that he wasnt tortured. I give Omars lawyers all the credit in the world. I accept that fact that they were there and arent sure about it ...while you werent there and seem to be dead sure about it.

Yer doing exactly what Peter MacKay does when he's caught in the headlights. Slam the guy who made the report. Churchills assessment 100 years ago remains the same today. Its much easier to fly to the moon than change the culture of a race of people that has existed for centuries. Unless of course you elect to nuke the bastards. Once the decision was made to go for it, it took less time to make that moon flight than we've spent over in Afghanistan trying to do the impossible...

Regarding the determination of his being a POW... right or wrong that determination was made by the US folks a long time ago.

I see... you have interpreted the lawyar statement ... "he may have been tortured" to mean that he wasn't tortured? It does not compute.

This aint the first time that overzealous Canadian agents have screwed up. I see a pattern developing here.

The Supreme Court of Canada wasnt trying to ascertain if he was tortured.

I accept that it might be your opinion but it remains to be determined by a trial.

You seem to have missed the point of the fact that nothing is going to change over there. Be aware that the guys in the cave who "engineered the destruction" you speak of werent Afghan tribesmen. Your comment reminds me of the USA Homeland Security chief who was under the false impression that the 9/11 terrorists entered the US via Canada. Frankly, I prefer to have my tax dollars spent over here as opposed to moving around a lot of Afghanistan rocks and stones with bombs in the hope that we could get centuries of tribal differences and constant warfare to evolve into something we wish it to be.

Surely you must be aware that three cabinet ministers (Including MacKay) met with the head of the International Red Cross in the fall of 2006 and were alerted to the matter of Afghans possibly torturing prisoners. Then we have General Hillier denying he ever heard of any suggestions of torture allegations. Ha!~ That would be impossible unless the report of that meeting with the IRC guy was never discussed with Hillier...which would make Mackay a THUG and a LIAR. Read the following info and tell me with a straight face that the Canadian military wasnt made aware of torture allegations and that they did absolutely nothing about it. Who's zoomin' who here? "To be clear and precise about this, last weeks evidence states categorically that the very high risk of torture in Afghan prisons was first made known to senior members of the Canadian Forces in May of 2006 and repeatedly thereafter," General Gauthier said. "In actual fact, I and others received such warnings in a substantial way for the first time more than a year later than that." Gauthier also said that Colvin's 2006 reports from May to September never mentioned the risk of torture or suspected torture. He said the word torture does appear in a Dec. 4 report, but could be "reasonably interpreted to be a warning of torture." "I can very safely say there is nothing in any of these 2006 reports that caused any of the subject matter experts on my staff nor by extension me to be alerted to either the fact of torture or a very high risk of torture. Nothing," Gauthier said.

He wasnt questioning the validity of his assertions. He was applying a lable on the guy. Stop being a dupe.

The term "allegedly turned over" is the story lines words simply because (according to the story) the correspondence is being held in secret by the Military/Government. If a Minister is gonna call a respected diplomat names or apply labels, then to avoid being labled a thug (which the Harper troops have been proven to be so given their documented history of apologies) ... the proof can only come from the Minister.

Apparent comments re "soft on child porn"? You make me laugh. I gave you a reference. Didnt you read it? It wasnt apparent. It was a fact. Your opinions come across as though your are willingly being "duped" by Harper and anything you might write further in this matter is simply something from a "suspect source".

Here is my two fold answer. - Because its evidence of the typical brutal thuggery practiced by Harper & Co. Thats what you & I have been discussing. NOT just the Colvin material... which is simply more of the same thuggery. - Perhaps you might be reminded with this 2004 story. LINK Now...where is the evidence that Colvin is a "suspect source"? Where is the evidence that he was "duped"? Before a minister elects to drop a bad name on a government employee, he/she ought to have a "cintilla" of evidence. Especially on an employee that was sent by Ottawa to serve as an intelligence officer in Washington.

Gabby...Gabby....Gabby.... Why must you claim every time whenever you get an answer you dont like, the poster isnt contributing? Whats up with that? I dont recall anyone suggesting or hinting about your "mental" resourses or taking unnecessary potshots at you. Please clean up your act.

No the Geneva conventions say that. If you wish to split hairs over what constitutes mistreatment of a prisoner then you would have been most welcomed as part of the Dick Cheney legal team of thugs. I expect my country to live up to the GC and that includes making sure that detaines arent being tortured or mistreated regardless of whether we are guarding them or if we have turned them over to others. Hillier didnt do that. Other than the fact that Canada is a signatory of the GC, I dont expect you to understand why its important that we follow it. I'm not sure you would actually understand it. It requires humane treatment for all persons in enemy hands, without any adverse distinction. It specifically prohibits murder, mutilation, torture, cruel, humiliating and degrading treatment, the taking of hostages and unfair trial. You speak of me as being obtuse. Perhaps you can quote me where I have written that being put in a cell is mistreatment or where I have discussed handcuffs. Try to be honest in your own writings rather than setting everyone to a standard that you dont seek to keep. You are a very good writer but tend to be on the verbose side....a stickler for form over substance...

This is true. Churchill were he alive today would tell you that. Why you ask? The inhabitants of these wild but wealthy valleys are of many tribes, but of similar character and condition. The abundant crops which a warm sun and copious rains raise from a fertile soil, support a numerous population in a state of warlike leisure. Except at the times of sowing and of harvest, a continual state of feud and strife prevails throughout the land. Tribe wars with tribe. The people of one valley fight with those of the next. To the quarrels of communities are added the combats of individuals. Khan assails khan, each supported by his retainers. Every tribesman has a blood feud with his neighbor. Every man's hand is against the other, and all against the stranger. -- Winston Churchill 1897 True. You can only slow them down...

Thats been their mantra for centuries. Ya aint gonna kill 'em all.

I didnt bring it up.

Was any evidence of his being duped brought forth? I dont think so. Was any evidence that he was a "suspect source" put forth to substantiate that claim? I dont think so. This crap only adds to the classic thuggery campaigns that good people are too often subjected to. This classic political horsepoop has been used on others as was the case in their ridiculous public statement regarding Paul Martin being soft on child porn. If you want to ignore that kind of stuff being employed by our politicians regardless of what party they belong...so be it. Bitching about Liberal happenings while sloughing off Harper's past storm trooper tactics is pure hypocricy.

Actually it states that any kind of torture or cruelty is prohibited. Ergo, defining it isnt a requirement.

I see that you dont deny that they labled Colvin as a dupe and a suspect source. Political thuggery at its finest. Not unlike harper labeling Paul Martin as being soft on child porn. MacKay is a political thug of the highest order and has been taught by one of the best.