Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne'

She:kon! It will mean that we were right and willing to die to defend our position. "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace. A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined."- George Washington, First Annual Address, January 8, 1790. Now where would George Washington get an idea like this.......after all he was a student of the Iroquois Confederacy..... O:nen

She:kon! That's just it. We're not sitting waiting. They know full well what happens when they corner a rattlesnake. There we severely bitten at Oka. And they also realize that once the venom is in addition venom will eventually take them totally out of commission. They could follow the calls for army intervention but they would not be successful. Nor could the army contain a catestrophic nation-wide uprising without also sacrificing their peaceful world image and their citizens. Negotiation is their only recourse and it is not a good prospectus to boot. We have reminded them that reserves only hold about 15% of our people. The rest live in cities and towns all over North America they cannot "wipe us out" without taking a lot of ordinary citizens with them since we are indistinguishable - just like the Iraqis and the Afghans it would be impossible to sort out the legitimate opposition. O:nen

She:kon! Not true. The trust ensures that when guys like David Peterson ask us to take down the barracades in return for the return of the Burtch lands, we don't say "ok"........we say "put it in writing without any weasle clauses." Of course when he reneged after all it was easy to justify the re-erection of the barracades to hold him to his written word. The government has used all kinds of slimy tricks over the centuries in dealing with agreements. At first they cluttered the agreements with jumbled colonial legaltese hoping that we would not understand it. Of course it worked for some First Nations but we had lots of experience with the o'seronni and we insisted they clarify and simply it. Then they tried to imply that our agreements meant that we gave up our rights to challenge them on the language or intent of the langauge just because we made the agreement. Not so, and so when we insisted they were incorrect - that we didn't agree not to look at the agreements and enforce them accordingly, they quickly imposed a law that prohibited us from seeking redress in their courts. Then after a while they further compunded that injustice by replacing our government at gunpoint and installing one of their own - one that would agree with their interpretations of the agreements or else be starved out from existence. In order to secure their imposed governments and to prevent anyone from going agains their illegal take over, they grabbed our children in the middle of the night with the expectation that they would make them subjects of their abusive masters and thereby silencing any opposition that might occur in the future. That never worked either. And so their next step was to keep us poor and marginalized by their laws and inequity in an attempt to force assimilation either through death or necessity. At my own reserve, people were banned from shopping for material goods, and food off reserve and imports into the reserve were controlled by the Indian Agent. He kept food and human necessities to a minimum and then offered some people a way out by offering them cash for their land and status as an Indian. Once we were enfranchised then we would be given the vote, the freedom to work off reserve and to act like any other Canadian. Those who took the deal ended up without the vote, performing only the menial jobs offer to them and were banned from bars and restaurants by owners support and protected by the government. In return they lost their homes, their property, their connection to their families and even had to deny themselves and their heritage in order to secretly obtain proper employment. The the government turned to the courts allowing Natives to sue for land claims. Yet the court was overwhelmed with irrelevent historical documentation that the government successfully (in some cases) argued that not only did some Nations give away their land but they gave away their brothers and their aunts and uncles as well. Over the years as we became educated as lawyers and politicians and challenged the rulings, complete with legal documentation to prove the government lied and cheated Indians, then they suddenly decide that the courts are no longer the place to adjucate these disputes. They proposed and implemented a "lands claim commisions" with the sole intent of delaying, ignoring and reducing valid claims through ineptitude and bureaucracy. I say we have been extremely patient and if not for the illegal, immoral and iequitible behavior on your government's (and the British) these disputes and their ramifications on other people could have been settled back in about 1802. However, your government, knowing in the end it would lose all challenges has successfully delayed the isses to a point where ordinary Canadians stand to lose a great deal in any and every settlement. That is why we no longer follow the Canadian way of settling land issues and why we have changed the rules more in keeping with preventing others from being dragged into the effects through further private development and encroachment. By taking the lands back and putting them in our control development of the Haldimand Tract will essentially come to a screeching stop. And since your government is really just a big business in disguise, working for other big business, hitting them where it counts gets action. It really is interesting how your government's attitude has changed recently by not only validating our title but also recognizing our sovereign government. Seems that by messing with the business interests in the area, the government realizes the long-term impact and is now ready to salvage the best they can out of an untenable situation. We are not "between a rock and a hard place" as you say. Quite the opposite in fact as we hold all the cards and have your government knocking at our door (once again) to share a little with you. I have no doubt that this will eventually unfold with both a lot more money in our pockets, a greater recognition and commitment to settle all of our claims, a new educational component to teach the truth about the treatment of First Nations by Canada and Canadians, a return of most of the vacant lands and farms, greenspace, parks and conservation areas and roads in the tract as well as a whole chunk of money as compensation for the remainder occupied lands. And given that fact that the whole goal of the government in settling these claims is to maintain some continuity for businesses and residents there will be few, if any gains for you. Now you can cry that I am talking as an extremist but the reality of the situation is that we are not the only nation with land disputes with your government....we are just the first in the new process. Since Ontario, like Alberta is covered with First Nations territories holding treaties with the Crown there is not any doubt that the settlements will be fast and furious or the consequences will be that the net costs (like the value of our trust and the market value of the occupied lands) will grow by the billions each year in interest alone. I'm not sure that you can afford to pay it all back, but if you don't start somewhere by making payments then Canada will be in bankruptcy in no time. And what better way to be taken over by the US than to come in when your money is worthless and starting running the show........ You have a choice, no doubt. Although you keep denying that the result is a net loss for Canada, the net gain for us as we continue to grow. We will collect since that is part of the new process. Pay us now or pay us later but rest assured you will pay us....in full....... O:nen

She:kon! I'm from the government and I'm here to help you...... (old time favourite) The cheque's in the mail...... I won't c%#& in your mouth....... The newest one added "Hi! I'm from Indian Affairs. Trust me, you'll get your land back...." O:nen

She:kon! Until all the outstanding land disputes are settled and the treaties and agreements fully recognized and upheld, the ~new and improved~ normalcy will be land reclamations, road blockades and infrastructure disruptions. 20 years ago our Royaner warned your Prime Minister and Governor General that our youth were discontent with the inequity and injustices of ignored agreements and encroachments on our territories. 10 years ago the Royaner predicted that if the government did not come to the table to discuss these issues that the young adults would escallate the issues by confrontational action. Our Royaner were ignored and dismissed as Canada told us to go back in our corner and wait. Today the youth of 20 years ago are the Warriors and Mothers in our community. They are no longer a patient lot, and have garnered the support of the old people who see their actions a necessary and compelling. Prefaced by Oka and Ipperwash, this is the new land claims process, where we take back our territory and let your government prove we ever gave it up. Guess what? You government knows it is up a creek without a paddle and so it sees negotiation as an alternatve an expedient and necessary process. Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot, your government knowing it is sunk, wants to talk with us. The government is starting from a weak position neither being the occupiers or the legal title-holders of the lands. You can all be assured that you won't be gaining much from these talks, since we are unwilling to negotiate ourselves into a loss. O:nen

She:kon! We already operate on those things on our own within our communities. Well not only have we ignored him and told him he has no jurisdiction, so has the Attorney General, the Premier and the Prime Minister. The occupation of our own sovereign lands is not illegal and even though the government may not yet fully agree, they are more interested in talking about it than they are letting some old fart stroking his gavel, make them do something other than that. Negotiations will progress regardless. Watching&waiting, you don't have a clue what your are talking about. So rather than making more of a fool out of yourself than you already have you'ld be well advised to silence your ignorance, go in the bathroom and close the door for a couple of hours. Just make sure the fan is on full..... O:nen

She:kon! I said right off the mark yesterday the Judge did not have jurisdiction and his ruling violates the Charter right to peaceful assembly. The Ontario government is going to appeal his ruling citing Judge Marshall has no jurisdiction. No doubt the Charter right will come up in the appeal. This thread is relatively a non-issue now since the ruling will ignored. O:nen

She:kon! If you truly read and understood the historical discussions we have had between Canada and the Haudenosaunee then you might have come across one very important tenet. "Leave us alone." It is a simple request that has been played over and over again. We're not interested in your angles, your laws, your opinions or your suggestions. You have no right - legal or moral - to suggest that you can help. We did not authorize you to research or predict the outcome of our negotiations with Canada. So the only purpose for your being here is for your own entertainment only. You can spend all the time you want playing and pretending but in reality we don't want or solicit your help. We already have enough Haudenosaunee lawyers - much more skilled at justice and constitutional law than you will ever be - at our disposal should we want to go that route. And since you neither know or understand our laws and customs, any action you could take would only make things worse. You see, your worldview as an anglo-european Christian male is completely opposed to our worldview and both can never be harmonized. Your worldview and the thnking behind it has led to centuries of genocide against us and nothing has changed in the last 20 years or so to suggest that your are cured of that violent and oppressive thinking. The truth is that residential schools and armed attacks are as possible today as they were 20 years ago and there is nothing you can do that will change Canada's racist agenda. When you can contribute to your own society and demonstrate that they are less violent amongst each other, and more caring and neighbourly towards us then we might be able to revisit your presence here. Unfortunately in my view, it will take a collapse of your soceity to achieve such a result given the fact that your society it rooted in violence and the disparity of the rich over the poor. Should such a collapse happen in the near future (it is heading that way by evidence of the failure of your primary insitutions - justice, education and government are all corrupt) then it is likely you will become a burden on us, as we still hold the knowledge of survival off the land without the use of mechanised weaponry and tools. So while at first glance you might think I might appreciate your activity, I really have no regard for it. If that angers you then make it up with yourself, since if you were a skilled as a Haudenosaunee your skin would be seven spans thick. Your anger just reminds me how violent your society is. O:nen

She:kon! Judge Marshall is riding a bicycle without a chain. While it looks like he is going fast and staying the course he is getting nowhere. As far as his jurisdiction goes we have flattened his tires. O:nen

She:kon! A lawyer is an officer of the court sworn to uphold Canadian law and Crown interests. There is no need for your assistance FTA Lawyer as you would do more harm than good. The examination of Canadian documents and decisions is irrelevent unless it is weighed against our oral and written history under equal weight. It would be fruitless to make a thorough examination of legal documents and then ignore the actual history of our agreements from our perspective. The government already knows they are bumping a rock. They recognize our sovereignty evidenced by their commitment to negotiate with our Confederacy Council. They already recognize our title to the Haldimand Tract through an Agreement in Principle. All that is left is what to do with the illegal settlers living within our territorial limits. Canadian courts have no jurisdiction. The Supreme Court only enforces Canadian law and it is fascinating that they have thus far ruled against the Canadian mainstream, using only their own law as a guide. Nevertheless, their rulings have no effect on us. They merely compel Canadians to do what is right under Canadian law. Where Canadian law conflicts with Haudenosaunnee law most believe they can just ignore us and order us to comply. The Two Row Wampum - the Kaswentah - and the Covenant Chain have promoted the fact that we are sovereign allies of the Crown, and not subjects. Over the years the Royal Proclamation and the Haldimand Proclamation have declared our protection from encroachment by settlers and interests of the Crown and others. Yet these laws prohibiting encroachment, occupation and invasion into our sovereign territoriy has been largely ignored. And dispite our protests that have remained constant over the last 200 years, they continue to be ignored, delayed and obfuscated by your government. Over the generations we have been encouraged to seek redress through your Indian Agents, your Indian Affairs, your courts and recently in the last 10 years your "Lands Claims Commission". We have appealed to the Governor General, the Prime Minister, the Minister of Indian Affairs, the Minister of Justice and even the Queen and still we have been ignored and our issues minimized. We have been patient and congenial with understanding and goodwill towards finally resolving these disputes. We have come to the conclusion that Canada and the Crown does not want to resolve our disputes nor comply with their own laws concerning this matter. Having waited for 200 years, we have no choice but to change the rules under which we will resolve our disputes. In the case of land matters, we have begun to take back those lands in dispute and to compel the Crown to answer proof that we ever offered it for lease of sale. In your 3 hours of research it might have dawned on you that there is no proof - something we ascertained 200 years ago and have repeatedly presented as evidence to Canada as recently as last year, only to be dismissed as insufficient. There is nothing insufficient about the reclamation, occupation and control of our own lands. The occupation will continue and it is likely as the result of Judge Marshall's ruling yesterday that it may be a long time before we get back to the negotiating table. Canada can delay all that they want now, since we hold and will develop those lands as we see fit. There will be no courts or surrenders that will change the status of the lands. They are protected now and until your government makes a petition to our Council for discussion about it, there will be no compromise. The next move is Canada's and from where I sit starting negotiations from a lower position doesn't allow Canada to demand much in the way of settlement. “Brother! – If you wish us well then keep away; don’t disturb us.” Red Jacket, Seneca Sachem May 1811 O:nen

She:kon! His appointment is provincial. The Canadian jurisdiction for land disputes is federal. The negotiations trump the jurisdictional authority of the judge. The judge cannot restrict people from sitting down and having a meeting. That violates Section 2 of the Charter. 2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: (a) freedom of conscience and religion ( freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other means of communication. © freedom of peaceful assembly; and (d) freedom of association. O:nen

She:kon! I wouldn't say 9000 people living in Kitcher is insignificant. However pursuasion is a powerful ally. You don't need force to move people. All you need is incentive and opportunity and they will move themselves. If your governmetn follows through on their plan to entice industry and commerce out of the region is would only take a few years before Kitchener is a ghost of its former self. And if they begin expropriations as they have proposed, then that should take care of the rest (of course once people get a drift of the loss occuring in the market values of their homes, they will sell sell sell at clearance prices. All this will be evidennt once the government announces the Agreement in Principle. Tell me Riverspin....will you be the first to jump ship or the last to defend a worthless plot? O:nen

She:kon! Judge Marshall's ruling is as irrelevent as he is. There was no injunction to enforce. There is no contempt if there is no injunction. His act to stop negotiations contravenes the Charter and the right of anyone to associate with anyone they choose. Negotiations will continue and we keep the lands. In fact in the next month or two there will be about a dozen more plots that will be seized under the new reclamation process. No need for land claims talks anymore. The government has already recognized our sovereignty and title to the entire Haldimand Tract in an Agreement in Priniciple. The only remaining question is what to do with the people. O:nen

She:kon! No it doesn't. The OPP understand what happens when we are left alone and what happens when we are attacked. No doubt they wish to leave us alone. The premise of sovereignty is being willing to defend your independence. You needn't instigate aggression to live peacefully as a nation. Only westerners believe that violence is a means to and end. That's exactly why Harper has no problem sending young boys to the killing fields of Afghanistan. He believes that violence will lead to peace....how obtuse is that thinking..... O:nen

She:kon! We use the art of pursuasion and every once in a while we throw in a little orenda. Works every time! People will do what ever you ask them to do, if they believe it will benedfit them. However we will use force to DEFEND our sovereignty. Make no mistake. O:nen

She:kon! If you come to Kayenke' or Six Nations or Akwesasne, you will be subject to our laws as well, although we are much more tolerant than Canadians. O:nen

She:kon! Canada's laws DO NOT apply. Period. You can dream they do all you want. Neither the Haldimand Proclamation or the Simcoe Patent changed that. Period. Our soverienty defines our passport, not the other way around. Haudenosaunee are independent and soveriegn and ARE NOT subjects of the Crown or citizens of Canada. O:nen

She:kon! Your viewing from your violent filter. All that hate in your mind must be collecting in a pool. Six Nations will not instigate violence against anyone. Violence is a rot in your soceity not ours. “Brother! –If you white people murdered the Saviour , make it up yourselves. We had nothing to do with it. If he had come among us, we should have treated him better” Red Jacket 1811 O:nen

She:kon! If you tried to cross the border today, you would need a valid birth certificate. By 2008 it will be a passport. However, you are subject to duty restrictions. We are not. They even have a fast "Indian Lane" for us at Akwesasne. No British law, nor Canadian Law has an effect on us. It affects YOU and you must always read it with that in mind. Your problem is you have assumed and concluded we are Canadians and therefore subjects of the laws. We are not, and so the laws are not relevent. In discussing the issues of land autonomy, we only use the the Haldimand proclamation and the Royal Proclamatin (and its daughter - Sect. 25 & 35 of the charter) to illustrate the intent of the Crown that is consistent with our oral and written histories. We have never entered into Crown rule, nor will we. We remain sovereign and autonomous. O:nen

She:kon! The Two Row was extended by the British as the Conenant Chain. It is the same treaty in essence. The British never purchased the tract from the Mississaugas. The Haldimand Tract, as well as the North Shores of Erie to Georgian Bay and Ontario to the Trent and Ottawa Rivers was already Confederacy territory. The Mississaugas had a treaty with us to manage the lands in our absence . The agreement was witnessed in Taiagon (Toronto) in about 1664. The Mississaugas were paid a sum to return to their traditional lands on the north shore of Superior, that's all. The return to the Haldimand Tract was a reoccupation of traditional lands. The Proclamation was a guarantee that Haudensaunee had absolute autonomy and authority over the lands and that no settlers would be permitted to settler the area. The proclamation was not necessary on our behalf since we knew our territorial limits but it was a law to prohibit setters from landing there. The British and the Crown recognized our sovereignty as allies. There was never any agreement, assumption or capitulation that made us subjects. Nada. None! Our soveriengty is intact as is our traditional government. We don't need Canadian rule nor are we willing to compromise our land or our autonomy for the sake of friendship. O:nen

She:kon! The Confederacy have their own passports and they are recognized throughout the Americas and Europe. There are no passports or travel documents for Haudenosaunee people to travel in the US or Canada. O:nen

Your perspective is all warped. Illegal occupiers have no rights. The UN has no such conventions to interfere in the policing of their state. Cities and towns within the Haldimand tract will be subject to our territorial governments. If we say they pay taxes to us then they pay or they face the tax man...you know that 260lb guy with the Huron haricut and lead-based ink tattoes on his face, who will come knocking on your door a 5:300 in the morning with a brigade of mace-spraying warriors. I'm sure they can find things to use your house for, if you are unwilling to pay for its upkeep. Occupiers do not exceed the historical rights of the Haudenosaunee. Period. You're in lala land if you think they do. Besides we're just gonna take it back first and ask questions later. I doubt you have the balls to stand up to any one of us. O:nen

She:kon! Succession is not an option under the Kayenera'kowa. The Clan Mothers and the Women are the title-bearers of all the lands and you those who wanted to opt out would have to convince them it was for the benefit of the next seven generations to let the lands go. That's an unlikely outcome. The settlers could refute the taxes. However if they did they could also be refused services. Their water, sewer and roads could be cut off or tolls - much like the 407 - could be implemented. However, we're confident that we would not need a tax system - at least in the way it is there now. Through co-operatives, there could be enough revenue to keep all of our needs in check. The fact that you have trouble comprehending the basis of a consensus system really is rooted in your ignorance. Lots of info is available on the net or in the library which describes our government system and the basis of consensus. Maybe you should start there since you've lost so many arguments here you are beginning to look like a teenager trolling the net for 13 year olds. The land is not theirs to bargain with. So if 500,000 people wanted out, they would either have to take up a trillion dollar collection and buy their lands outright (providing the Clan Mothers let it go) or face a hundred thousand dollar a year lease that would go on forever. Ask those at Sauble Beach how they liked the rent increases......... O:nen

She:kon! No one said God gave us the land. I mentioned that human beings had rights. Our rights have not been limited - yours have. O:nen

She:kon! The Confederacy system is fully democratic. The Kayener'kowa is over 1000 years old and contains the pre-equisites for citizenship and immigration. If any of those 500,000 want to become citizens then they must follow our law to do it. If they don't then they can leave and seek a place in Canada where their rights will be further limited. We have every right to limit the extent to which settlers can participate, given that they are incapable of governing themselves and as such are no more than infants. Understanding the Great Law and the political system or consensus is critical to participation. As you have said so many times before, YOU can see how consensus could work for such large groups. That thought and statement is an impediment to participation. Refugee Lebanese wouldn't come to Canada expecting them to change the consitution to suit them. As it stands those people living on the Haldimand tract are illegal aliens. They should be grateful we don't take the US approach and gather them up and expell them......For the time being their residency is a problem that we are negotiating to resolve. Rest assured your government is more than willing to hang the settlers out to dry. We are not, because we believe in their rights as human beings. The system already exists. There is no "set-up" to prevent anything. Their ability to participate is hindered by their inability to understand the consensual process and its nuances. I have sat in many a circle with many o'seronni who would vocally abuse the process because it doesn't conclude in their agenda. Now you are doing exactly that by suggesting that because you are not capable of civil dialog that we are limiting you. Another crock by the Riverspin. Anyone who can master the system can have an influence. Majority vote is irrelevent since full consensus is sought on every issue. The only limitations are through those that are incompetent. Even children are heard at the community level. You are proving to have less facalties than a child, so I'm pretty sure that you would be severely limited by your own incompetency. {added in edit} Unlike Canadian politics, Government in our terms is never imposed upon people. We the people are the government and every decision is made by us. So in that regard if 200,000 settlers suddenly wanted in, it would have no effect on the other 1.5 million of us. Only through their use of pursuasion and good will would they be able to bend the outcome. YOUR agenda is lost befre you even started. O:nen