Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne'

She:kon! Speaking of myths......you have more than a thousand grains of sand in your eyes.... In some cities the drop-out rate in high school is over 50%. When you remove those students that are in the special education stream, and those who are exceptional (and don't require traditional teaching)out of those statistics then you find that the school system is only effectively reaching about 25% of the kids. Very quickly, if you factor in the drop-outs and the special ed and exceptional students your successful graduation rate drops to less than 1/2 of the population. Not looking good is it..... As for your government...it got away with the Ad-scam for many years without getting caught and even after they were caught with their hand in the bucket were vindicated by apathy and disinterest. The fact remains that those kinds of belly-rubbing goes on in your governmetn and if a politician goes into the system with good intentions he will come out with corrupt intentions. The failures on reserve are the result of YOUR government since the Band government is a microcosm of the federal system. YOUR failures and YOUR corruption show up in those that are least able to hide it. That doesn't change how corrupt and ineffective your government is but demonstrates how deeply you are fooled into believing all is well. The school system is geared to rote learning something that doesn't fit well with First Nations "hands-on" learning. However, those who have been able to bridge the gap have not only done well, but been able to retain their own way of thinking in spite of the mass conditioning you subject your kids to in the school system. People who live on reserves represent only 15% of the total population of native peoples so using them as exaples would be like saying that based on 25% of mainstream population having drinking or substance abuse problems, Canadians are drunks and pot heads. That can only come from someone is hasn't a clue about First Nations people and their issues. As well we can directly trace our community substance abuse and dysfunction to the residential schools and the government policies of cultural genocide. What's your excuse? Since these "isms" come from your society, YOUR people must have invented them, since none of these problems existed before the settlers first arrived and started interfering with our people. Dispite atttempts to kill First Nations people off and dispite attempts t assimilate the rest, First Nations people are still intact, complete with our cultures, history and languages. On the other hand in less than 140 years from the invention of Canada, you have eveolved to care-less and apathetic political shrimps who would rather hide their heads in the sand than to try to rectify an injustice.....especially where it is cgoing to cost you deeply in the end. Western civilisation is on the verge of collapse. You can't do anything about it. The best you can do is prepare your children for it so that they won't face the same painful expiration that you and the rest of those myopic city-dwellers will face. O:nen

She:kon! Let me try to provide the condensed version....... ".....and it is to do with the role of chief (whom has been selected by family ties)." Royaner are not selcted along "family ties". The are selected to represent the Clan by the Clan Mother. He must be married. So here's the twist.........People cannot marry within their clans, so all the men in a particular clan belong to other clans. Us Mohawks have 3 clans in our Nation. So a Women from the Turtle Clan must marry someone from the Wolf or Bear Clans. Her husband comes to live with her Clan...family... and retains his clan. All the children will aquire the woman's clan. So the Royaner to be select is actually not from the Longhouse Clan which he represents. In order for him to retain his status as Royaner, he must represent the Clan he is selected to represent. If he doesn't the Clan Mother can impeach him instantly and replace him with another Royaner. Each clan has 3 Royaner to represent them at Council. So at any one time no Royaner can hijack the position and pursue his own private interests. There ar many checks and balances in the system to prevent such things from occurring. And the 3 Royaner and Clan Mother ensure that decisions reached by the community consensus are relayed to Council who then seek consensus among themselves and return the results back to each clan for further consideration or ratification. O:nen

She:kon! Our democracy is controlled by the people. All decisions and all agreements made by those we entrust as negotiators must come back to us for ratification. Citizens must be informed to discuss the issues at the community level or their opinions will not hold any weight. Community interest obtained through a true consensus of the community outweighs any personal interest. People may still obstain from the process. But they are none-the-less engaged in the discussion at kitchen tables and in community halls or while waiting in line at the grocery store. When an issue hits the community then there is extensive discussion. Through discussion and presentation of truth and fact, people will often reach like-mindedness on their own. If there are disputes and disagreements, then they usually arise in the details of the execution of the decision and not in the prinicples or reasoning behind them. And where there are disagreements, then the process of consensus seeks to legitimize and harmonize people's concerns. Where total agreement cannot be reached (this process can take months) then the goal of the consensus to satisfy the opposition to a degree that they agree not to be an obstacle to the decision. Balancing Individual Rights with Those of Collective “Each member of the community is to be respected for what he or she contributes to it, so the opinions and rights of the individual are very important. Progress to wards any (economic) plan for Kahnawake must be made by consensus. However, no individual can come before the community as a whole. Dissenting opinions are of value when they contribute alternatives to flawed proposals, but the majority must rule in order for the chosen project to have the support it will need to work.” From...The Economic Principals of The Women of the Longhouse, Kahnawake O:nen

She:kon! BMax, Archaeology has proven that people in the Americas were smelting metals more than 3000 years before it was discovered in Europe. It has also proven that humans occupied the Americas more than 10,000 years before Europe was populated. If the early scandinavians were metal working they probably learned it from us. Participatory democracy never developed in Britian - even to this day. Instead the parliamentary and other western democracies are primarily oligarchies with the cadres at the top clearly over-ruling any opposition from the citizens or by the rule of law. Our democratic systems is formally over 1000 years old and because the people make all decisions, it is still a government "of the people, by the people" - something Jefferson and Hancock thought long about and then borrowed to formulate the American Constitution. O:nen

She:kon! Anyone who has studied the fall of empires and the collapse of entire civilizations in history will tell you that the precursors for collapse are all around you. Your institutions are chaotic failure. Health, education and justice as examples do not work. Your health care system ignores the people it serves in favour of counting the numbers it generates internally. People are dieing from bad health care. The sad reality is that your schools produce more failures and drop-outs than they do post-secondary graduates. Statistically, the majority of schools and students cannot meet provincial standards in standardized tests. Even graduates are illiterate and incompetent in simple math. The justice system has more empathy for the rights of offenders than it does the victim. And even though more and more people are imprisoned for serious crimes there is little effective rehabillitation taking place. Instead those who graduate from your prisons go on to escalating crimes. Your government system is corrupt and ineffective. The previous governments - Conservative and Liberal easily abuse their trust because they could. Many of the Cabinet Ministers personally profit from their positions. Kickbacks and special favours are granted everywhere. Legislation is useless since their are the crooks regulating the crooks. As a democracy your entire system is a failure as the lawyers and business people who serve as your MP's and MPPs run the governmetn to their satisfaction and ignore the ordinary citizen's needs. You are over burdened with taxes and poorer serves. Yes your society is imploding. All the symptoms of past collapses are there. If you want to believe otherwise then I suggest you go back to burying your head in the sand and come out when you feel a sting on your butt. That will be your signal that you can go back grazing in the fields. ________________________________________________________________________________ _________ In the scheme of things your opinion does not count. That has always been clear. Your view doesn't count even towards what is discussed between our governments. However, you are still our neighbours and it is our goal to wish you well. Truth and knowledge does not come from the myths and lies that are told here by many to advance their personal bigotry. Others, who promote their ignorant assumptions do you harm in suggesting that we area conquered or beaten people. So in the interest of friendship and goodwill, we will defend the truth and those among you that can see it. We have always stood by and defended our friends from harm and by defeating myths and agendas we remove those among you that would set you aside as insignificant and attempt to rule over both of us. What else are friends for? O:nen O:nen

She:kon! Our agreements and leases were for exactly that purpose. Some of those leases of 100 years ago are about to expire and will be renegotiated. Most the farmers are quite aware of that. Our relationship with farmers always has been an amicable one. So long as they understand we are the landlords and that selling th land to outside interests (and that would included mega-farm corporations) is strictly prohibited. O:nen

She:kon! The Haudenosaunee population alone is about 1.5 million people. And don't forget that we have the support of about another 2 or 3 million aboriginal people in the Americas. But you raise a valild question. "So what happens when the Canadians living within those areas decide to break the agreement?" Citizens cannot "break" international agreements and your government will force you to comply with whatever they agree to. Like I said they are lying beneath the horse right now trying to steer it a little in favour of keeping things a tad "normal". If you want armed conflict and think that is an end then I suggest that you again study our history. You won't prevail on that front. And just a little "current events" for you information. Most farmers support us since we are halting urban sprawl along the Grand River tract and that is consitent with their goals of protecting their farms from incursion of the rat infested developments that plague the environment. O:nen

She:kon! Nope. I was taught to feed a living horse or else it will die from neglect. For an example of what happens when you ignore something: Dead Horse O:nen

She:kon! Investments! Kitchener-Waterloo and all the other occupied towns and cities along the tract represent over $1 trillion dollars on the fair market. So as part of the present negotiations your government buy their interest outright from us.....or we will be paid back rent and future rent worth just about as much. Again....you should research our history.We have always been capitalist - long before the first settlers came here. The first tactic of a real capitalist is to first make you dependent on our products and commodities. Once that happens we have a captive market forever...... From a legal standpoint, according to proceedure we have consistently and proactively reminded your governments over the last 300 years that the land is still ours. That way you cannot assert ownership by acclamation. And since the Royal Proclamation prohibits you or anyone else from owning land in the tract, the "rule of law" states you must either compensate us for it or vacate it. O:nen

She:kon! No doubt another myth maker. Next you'll tell us that you cheap-labour conservatives built Canada and that the unionization of workers was your idea....... The fact remains, we are still here. After 500 years of attempts at genocide and assimilation we are still a force to be reckoned with. Your government thinks so too and the results of these negotiations over the land reclamtion of the tract will prove just how experienced and knowlegable we are of your miserable imploding society. You can bet that they don't want to negotiate with us but they MUST negotiate with us since we have not only the legal basis, the righteous reasoning and the moral principles held high above the Canadian system, we also outrank you where it concerns Crown law. So the sad fact is that Canada is reluctantly at the table, and starting from a lessor position in this whole issue. You would be well advised to study history and learn from it (since you are obviously so devoid of it). One fact that you will find over and over again in dealings between the British and the Haudensaunee is that we never negotiate ourselves into a loss. You on the other hand, are in the losing postion from the start because your government leaders could not think far enough into the future. And now that we are holding you to their agreements and declarations, it turns out it doesn't bode well for you....... And BTW, during this latest rounds of talks it seems that your present leaders cannot think far enough into the future either and I suspect that we will be revisting these claims another 25 or so years from now as you government comes begging back to us for our assistance..... O:nen

She:kon! We are a confederacy of six nations, allies of the Crown and soveriegn peoples. Our present claim to which the Crown agreed was ours "forever" involves six miles on either side of the Grand River from its mouth at Lake Erie to its source near Shelburne Ontario. Haldimand Map The North Shore of Erie to Georgian Bay, The North Shore of Lake Ontario north to the Lake Simcoe, Trent River and Ottawa River, the St Lawrence River north by about 30 miles and south to the bottom end of lake Champlain and most of New York State are our traditional lands. In some cases we have agreements for the join use of thes other lands and in many other cases they are totally unceded. However, we also have agreements with the Mississaugas for joint use "as long as the sun shall shine, as long as the grass grows and as long as the rivers flow". While we do not have an objection to non-Haudenosaunee people living in the other lands, we still hold rights over the expansion and use of resources. Further negotiations with Canada will be needed to clarify the extent of our claims over most of souther Ontario. Other Nations - the Ojibway (which includes the Mississaugas, Pottowami and others), Algonquin and Cree control the remainder of Northern Ontario and parts of Quebec and Manitoba. From there in each direction many other nations have their own agreements and unceded territories. You one mistake is believing that we are all the same. O:nen

She:kon! Relevence. You can't see it so it must not be there, right? Since I was very young I was taught to ~think~ in Mohawk principles. That means that not only do I have the freedom of speech, but I also can exercise my freedom in thought and in action. I am not bound by any laws or rules. Instead I was taught to be respectful towards all of Creation, including people and to honour and respect my beliefs ...whatever they might be..... I am entitled to express those beliefs without the threat of being shouted down and with an understanding that those who would seek to limit my freedoms were the most limited among you (and in essence require my help the most). As Canadians you are ~granted~ these rights but often fail to recognize them. Instead you are quick to point out the limitations to those ~grants~ and apply those limitations to others in your favour. It is no wonder that most Canadians are fast asleep where it concerns their own safety, political will or justice. Instead they have become so accustomed to be told what is right, what is just and what is secure that they can no longer do it for themselves. Your leaders perpetuate your voluntary suppression, by creating ~plausible~ myths to which you attach speculation and conspiracy theory. At election time they further confound you by making promises that in the end they will not keep, and even if they did they would have no effect. When any one of you can think as well as a Mohawk, or any other Iroquois citizen (especially a Mohawk woman!), then you will like us, see that there really is no need for government outside of your own self-governance.....And you might be wise enough to see that everything you come into contact with is ~relevent~ to your continued existence. The fact that you can't is a thinking limitation to whcih you impose your failures on others instead of liberating them together with us. O:nen

She:kon! The role of all western governments is to redistribute the wealth. So not only do they take it from rich provinces to pay not so rich provinces, but they give it away to businesses to keep them not so poor. Every politician - especially at election time - will promise tax breaks and helping "Canadians". All they are doing is giving you back your own money. But they are still giving big business hundreds of thousands more in comparision. O:nen

She:kon! China, Try again. A debate looks for a winner of the argument. A discussion is merely an exchange of ideas. If you want to take it into a philosphy or turn it into an ideology, then look it up yourself and prove and disprove your theories. After all they are YOUR theories that are doubted in YOUR mind. You misread "anger" for disinterest. David Hume operates from the western worldview. He like you cannot see the indigeneous worldview we operate from. Anything he says about discussion has no relevence. Carl Sagan is "way" out there. Using him as a reference is like saying that God is only a Christian. O:nen

She:kon! It IS acceptable to make a statement without always providing evidence. That is the basis of discussion - an exploration of ideas and information. If there is something said that is suspect then t is up to you to find out more. That can be achieved by asking more questions, doing your own research, or totally rejecting the statement altogether. If we were having a discussion over cofee at a Timmy's no one would be running out to get references from the library or stopping the discussion, opening a notebook and printing off the facts. Oral history is not the statement of one person. It is the collective history and knowledge of a nation of people. it has references and confirmations. The reason it has been validated by your supreme court is that it was tested against the British written history and found not to only be precise but also exact in many details left out in the mainstream historical texts. The process of obtaining and preserving oral history doesn't depend on rote memory like you would use in school remembering dates and such. It is based on teachings and stories preserved in wampum and symbols (it is not quite right to suggest that we had no written history - wampum preserves our history in many cases). Certain acts and ceremonies also preserve the events. So it has been verified and legitimized by telling many people the same stories, having each of them repeat them back until the knowledge keepers are satisfied and then reciting them together when it is questioned. When preserved this way our oral tradition is much more accurate because it is not subject to the same individual bias that most of your written history is caught up in. Passports - even Canadian ones - are generally protected. I have seen one on the net posted by an old friend but it is no longer available online. I don't need to ~prove~ to any of you that they exist, yet I provided references from people who have used them. They do exist and are recognized in over 36 countries this far. There are a lot of places in the world our people have not yet travelled so there may be more places. There are some countries as well, who have not yet accepted them and our Royaner (like any diplomat) are attempting to change that. O:nen

She:kon! That is the difference between western-anglo-european Christian worldview and my indigeneous worldview. You have to find a winner and a loser. You define yourself by it and set every interaction with the same goal. On the other hand those of us who subscribe to an indigeneous worldview are here to discuss. We have no need in winning. We're just interested in getting to the truth. I'm here for discussion and you'll never win a debate as long as my goals are different. O:nen

She:kon! Debate is neither honourable nor true. It is merely one person trying to assert their myths are truer than the others. of course you are! Trolls like company. otherwise they wouldn't have an audience and all their trolling would be worthless. O:nen

She:kon! LOOK IT UP YOURSELF! O:nen

She:kon! No trolling there. Just a peaceful discussion about getting together with some Caledonians over coffee and tea. It is remarkable that you would want to extend that invitation here. Shall we all go to deirdrie's house for an BBQ? Hey! Calling all Warriors, Royaner, Grandmothers and okwehon:we. All are invited to Lora's for a party! O:nen

She:kon! Typical internet noobes. You can't discuss the issue so you attack the poster. How typical and amateurish of you all. I made my proof. It was a consensus of many friends and aquaintances. What the problem is, is that it is not enough proof for you. That really is YOUR problem and in face of the proof I have presented it is up to you to prove your doubt. I'm hardly frustrated at dealing with noobes. In fact I have demonstrated much more patience than most of you, replying to the same silly questions and dispelling the same insane myths time and time again. I accept your incompetence to stay on topic, and your inability to understand concepts that are beyond your comprehension. However, there is nothing you can say that will detract me from speaking the truth. I would suggest that you get back on topic, or if you are incapable of adding to it you might step back and forget about it altogether. Your ignroance and myths on Native issues are deeply rooted and will take months of deprogramming before you can stand up to your own myths and start facing reality. If you get angry, disillusioned or frustrated and then aim that at me, then so what? I have big shoulders and thick skin. If you need a historical enema then do that in your own bed. This is not the place to lay in your own crap and accuse others of stinking. Those of you who are afraid to go any further, I wish you well and forgive you for your sins. O:nen

She:kon! Jerry, You've still made no comment. All you are doing is what trolls like to do. Focus on the trees and forget that there is a forest. If you are offended then take it up in your own mind. That is where it all originates. I don't particularly care if I have credibility with you or not. You are less than credibile anyway, so coming from you that would have been an insult (if I could be insulted). Your having an opinion doesn't matter to this issue - even if it is completely wrong. The only thing that matters is what we think because in the end we are the final decision makers, and your whining and condesention is about as effective as a worm trying to stop traffic by crawling across the 401 at rush hour. You would do best to sit back and watch how real people get things done. BTW I do speak for myself but there are many who agree with me. Not because they give me their vote but because they can hear the truth when it is spoken to them - which is an ability you as a mainstreamer have given up to mass-conditioning. O:nen

She:kon! "Truth" can't be handled. Only lies can. So if you are handling anything is it not the truth. Absolute truth accepts all challenges. It must, or it will be something less than the truth. O:nen

She:kon! I see you learned a new word China. Before you put it into your limited vocabulary you should learn what it means first. What you can't see, you fear. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that you can't see it. The limitation is in your own mind, not in mine. And if you really knew the capacity of the human being you would have no trouble seeing yourself for who you really are.....and not who you ~think~ you are. You have been subject to a mass experiment in conditioning. Even your own thoughts are suspect. What you tell yourself isn't the truth. It is merely a myth based on what others have instructed you to believe. Prove it did happen, doubting Thomas. I'm telling you that the many warriors I have met in my life time have said none of them were fooled. Most of them came back to tell the story because they were not sucker punched by the Vietcong using their tactics. In fact there are many who used their abilities to bend the circumstances (alter the rules of the reality) to meet their belief. A warrior doesn't die until he has a vision of his death - and only then because he believes his death is inevitible. Belief preceeds cause. Cause always preceeds effect. A stark reality that most of you who have been mass conditioned have been trained to forget and deny. Why do you think that would be? Answer: Those who are subject to limitation seek out others - not to free them from their bondage, but to entrap them in limitation. O:nen

She:kon! I know of no warrior that was sucker-punched by those tactics. When ever some of them went in to take a hill, they were painfully aware that they would be walking into the nests. Unfortuately the US military educated brats in the art of ordered warfare ignored their concerns and ordered them to take the hills in full frontal assaults to which many American kids died, and the hills remained solefully in the Vietcong control. They believed that napalm would clear them out and were unaware in many case of the miles of tunnels that protected them from surface bombardments. The beauty of this low tech method of defense was that the US could bomb out and blow up as many tunnels as they wanted and the moles would just dig new ones. In a half of a day they could rebuild what the US took weeks to search out and destroy. Low tech trumps high tech once again....... Jerry, in order to have a battle of wits you must first make a comment. While you have made lots of ignorant assumptions which have been dispelled time and time again, there has never been a sensible point made by you in any of these threads. If you think that you could take me on in a battle of wits or a flame war, I say bring it on. But please do a little research first. You will find an internet full of wounded egos and disheartened posters who tried to do the same thing and found themselves questioning their very existence. The fact that you don't believe in something is no consulation in your defense. Your myths of Canada, your failure as a citizen to wrestle control of your government away from lawyers and business people is evidence enough that you deserve everything you have as a Canadian - which is nothing. You have no property rights, your civil and human rights are in a shambles, you are a slave to corporations and your kids are bombarded with advertising that has them singing corporate jingles on the way to their woefully inadequate schools (which you pay for with user fees they collect from you). I would suggest that it is Canadians that cannot look after themselves and so as apathetic and impotent sleepers your government does a nice job of telling you what to do. On the other hand our freedoms are still intact, we have property rights and human rights that exceed the limitations placed on you. Your jealousy is evident and rather than join us in protecting your freedoms you would have us be imprisoned as you are simmering in your limitations and restrictions. You really do have something to be proud about. You have been suckered by the best in world into believing that you are a nation when all you are is a corporation that even American legislators would be proud of. Get a life. Yours is obviously tied up in a mental disability that isn't covered by your health insurance and your verbal masturbation is hardly entertaining to anyone but yourself. Got any hair on your lips yet? O:nen

She:kon! Nope. Never implied that. I never mentioned hiding in the sand or underground. You are making obtuse connections which proves you can't comprehend what you read. O:nen