Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne'

She:kon! In 1938 Orson Wells broadcast a radio special "War of the Worlds". It is estimated that of the 6 million people who listened to the show, more than half of them were genuinely frightened and believed that the US was actually being invaded by Martians. That's 3.4 million thinking, educated and well rounded Americans got sucker int by it. "Belief" is more powerful than any of the senses. Surprise and confusion is more powerful than belief. However, knowing how reality really operates usurps them all and with the mass conditioning you have been subjected to all your life it is as simple as knowing how to change the dream you think you are having into the nightmare it can easily become. You are free to dream that shape-shifting is some magic trickery. It is not. It reality at its fullest - the kind you could never understand becasue to look at truth frightens you, so you are constantly fed stories about how safe and secure your life is. It really isn't..... O:nen

She:kon! Our rights exist beyond the control of the Canadian government or its pathetic limitations. They exist as freedoms. But of course you can't understand that term given that your belief that freedom means you can impose your will on us. Justice therefore is the righting of all wrongs. Take a good look at your history. How many times have Canadians wronged First Nation people? Freedom to the oppressed means that justice is righteousness freedom! O:nen

She:kon! Clue in. You having a halucination is not the same thing as me shape-shifting. O:nen

She:kon! Borg, No....you're not any more special than the rest of the idiots making statements about things they know nothing about. It seems that you belong to that club...maybe you even hold an executive position? Haudenosaunee people are not ~stuck~. Canadians are though. Time after time you line up to come into these discussions and just repeat the same old stuff we have heard for 500 years. You haven't been able to grow beyond your own inbred bastardized thinking. "Assimilate now!" "Erase the bastards!" "Take all their land!" "Take back all the welfare!" Blah balh blah blah blah! Over and over again. But you do serve one important purpose. You remind us that the thinking that murdered our babies and children, raped our young girls and boys and starved their grandparents is still ever-present in the current generation. It establishes our continuous need to fight against the kind of sleepy insanity you subscribe to - even to the point that should the need arise to fight to our deaths, many of us would be willing and able. The freedom we still enjoy isn't because we are wards of that kentucky-mountain bred Canadian backwoods society you live in. It is in spite of it. And for the fact that not only have we survived your continuous (and pathetic) attempts to eradicate us, but we have defended your asses on more than one or two occassions against outside agressors. Now you will see what it is like to be in the backseat of a speeding car under OUR control.. What is happening at Caledonia is just the beginning of a complete reversal of the expansion of the original colonies in our territories. The final outcome is already determined and it is only a matter of time before you will realize and personally feel the sting of justice. You see you can advocate any path you like and our success against every move is already predetermined. You can call for the army or softer negotiations but in the end we will possess and occupy all the lands. And as a beginning this will repreat itself over and over again, not becuase we need conflict but because it is inevitible given that you are still stuck in the era of guns and steel and your response is to reach for either one of them. So the easier you make it to get out of our way the less upset that ordinary Canadians will feel and experience. You choose this path and unfortunately the new one we steared you into is unfamiliar and treacherous if you wander off it. Either way you will end up where we intended you to go and after all is said and done you will thank us for our perservence. You can go back to sleep now... Borg are dumb terminals anyway.... O:nen

She:kon! Wrong again Riverspin. Any Indian can cross the border. Blood quantum has nothing to do with it. The US does require a specific blood quantum to obtain a green card in the US, but any of us can move freely without impediment. We can also work in the US since we are not required to file paperwork, being Haudenosaunee citizens. A passport is not required by us to enter the US and will not be required after you are told to carry one. Our nations are in separate negotiations with the US Homeland Security to work out our own deal that will most likely result in them accepting our passports as sufficient identification. We can cross the border to buy lots more things Miser_Y. Guns and ammo, missles, tanks rations etc - every thing a well kept Mohawk Warrior needs - can be bought directly from wholesalers and imported back to our territories as we need them. And sh_it you guys get stopped and stripped searched for an extra pair of pants and a apple...... Kinda makes you go "hmmmmm...." O:nen

She:kon! You are in error...still..... First of all our facts are facts based not solely on oral history but on oral history that has been confrimed by thousands of written documents - from the Jesuit Relations on down to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The collections of oral history confirm the truth often going against the history bending re-interpretations of historical texts based on modern principles. What you keep trying to do is to use today's myths to confirm history and in the end when we present factual accounts all you do to protect those myths is to demand more and more "proof" (as if the internet is anything of "proof") Secondly, you have no facts. All you have are a collection of prejudices. Taken out of context you take single statements from historical texts and trying to apply them generally. You fail the very nature of history to confirm from many sources (since we all know that the written record is nothing more than one or two peoples viewpoint. Our proof has been not only confirmed over and over again by many people. This includes looking at things like the Letters and Articles of the Jesuit Relations, the transactions recorded by the French and British while they were here and even local papers which again record the prejudice of the editor but that confirm the truth of the oral history once the template of hate is removed from the story. The fact is that being myopic your opinion is "irrational" since rationalilty cannot exist in seclusion. Going only as far as it supports your myths present the worst of errors in your thinking since what in fact you are doing is creating a conclusion and then attempting to find informatin that only supports your conclusion. That is not only irrational but is hysterical and paranoid. You have filled your replies with generalities and examples that we have pointed out time and time again are irrelevent. Yet you insist on repeating your prejudice as if saying it over and over again will protect you from the truth. If you had believed that freedom of thought is guaranteed in your society then I suggest that you anchor in for a fight against the commercial advertisers, school systems, churches and government all who have subjected you and small children on up to mass conditioning. If freedom of thought were protected in your "kingdom" then children would not be singing cereal jingles, or playing video games in the darkness of their bedrooms. If freedom of thought were something that was even comtemplated here then the word "rootkit" would not be a basis for banning. Yet every part of your society, your institutions and even your entertainment is geared to making you thoughtless and distracted - mostly to encourage you to consume and behave according to someone else's ideas of security. The fact is that you have been brainwashed. And if you really possessed the freedom of thought, you would recognize it as much as we do, having been subjected to it all our lives but being free to ignore its limitations. So if you are going to go to a doctor and profess to be more knowledgable than he then you are an idiot. Otherwise anyone with any sense would realize that when talking about something you know little about they would be asking the experts for their opinions of the situation and not prescribing absolute "take it or leave it" solutions. WE ARE the experts having been Haudenosaunne all of my life, having lived like you for about 30 of my young years and realizing the hypocrisy and insanity behind your thinking. We are the knowledge keepers and the medicine keepers that know the land and its need for reparation and isolation from the petulance of the western insanity. We are the farmers who taste the soil and recognize its souring under the constant attack of greed and ignorance. We are the men and the women of Six Nations who no longer accept the government's attempts to protect the theft of our territory. If you want truth then ask the experts (there are many among us). If you want myopia and insanity keep thinking the way you have been. That road has been paved in preparation of your arrival by the millions of people who came our way over the last 500 years. If you want a lesson from your past, make it be this one. We are Haudensaunee, If you meet us on the path, we don't move. If you bump us in the night you will have to lift yourself off the ground. Our roots are firmly planted there! O:nen

She:kon! Wrong. We cross the border in an Indian "fastlane" that only needs us declare ourselves as Six Nations. We cross the border (and will continue to do so) without the need for a passport protected from harassament, or delay by Jay Treaty 1794 and every year we exercise that right by crossing the border enmasse. As for the issue of passports, I have it on great authority that the negotiations that the Haudenosaunne Council is engaged in the the US will result in Haudenosaunee passports being accepted by the US when they require all travellers to carry passports to enter the US. The US recognizes our sovereignty and the President makes reqular declarations reminding Americans of that fact. Our land claims are much bigger than the petty concerns of an individual settler and the government will have no prblem issuing an evacuation order to get rid of the stinking vermin once they recognize our territorial sovereignty. If Riverspin is worried about a loss of his investment then he should get out of the real estate market and join Canada savings bonds as his only secure investment. Goodbye Riverspin. It was nice of you to leave on your accord, although we would have gladly offered you an escort off our land. O:nen

She:kon! Unfortunately, people like Bumbino come into discussion believing they are debating between their racist / bigotted conclusions and the assertions that their prejudice is ill informed. They tend to ignore facts when thet don't fit their conclusions and so their entire response is dedicated to debunking truth and replacing it with their myths. Being stuck in a myopic conclusion he is an example of the general lack of cognitive thought that is prevelent in the mainstream. Of course freedom of thought (and in fact personal freedom) does not come by relying upon the past prejudice, conclusions and myths they have been conditioned to believe. Instead it can only come by challenging the myths (one must assume that every "first" reaction to a statement is not true) and then rethinking how the truth they are presented with could be true. Freedom of speech in our terms is not placing personal prejudices and opinions above the "possibility" of other explanations but seeks out additional truths that "bend" our thoughts and conclusions in the direction of absolute truth. The more we hear others speaking their truth and add it to our understanding of the facts the greater possibility that what we are discussing will not only lead to a righteous decisions, but that our understanding of issues and each other grows likewise. And so the KEY to freedom of speech, is to listen to what others have to say, and to try to find consensus in our understanding. Written history is a collection of prejudices while oral history is a number of versions of the same truth - a huge difference which certifies why it is more reliable than the written versions. (Of course when one does not bend their understanding in the face of overwhelming information to the contrary then their opinion becomes useless and their position is adversarial to the peace - not contributing to it. They then become enemies of truth and are treated as such until they decide to join the peace by listening instread of spouting their unfactual rhetoric. Very quickly, they are dismissed by the listener and so even if they had a valuable contribution, it is not heard.) O:nen

She:kon! Chuck U. Farlie demonstrates just how ignorant he is. A "northern Ontario" reserve is not Six Nations Territory and the Ojibwa up north of superior are not Haudenosaunee. His example is nothing more than a german going to italy and then proceeding to explain the customs of the hungarians based on his experience. Totally stupid example and an equally irelevent story. ANYone knows that at Six Nations or any other Haudenosaunee territory we serve our guests fried baloney sandwiches and corn soup! I bet he thinks all was good where he was because his sandwich was on "white" bread...... He should get with the culture! That's ok. I forgive him for his ignorance. The interbreeding of "dumb" hicks always produces at least one regressive gene in the family line. He can't help it if he is genetically prone to be slow. O:nen

She:kon! Nothing has been proven. All people have presented is circular logic suggesting that Canada is soveriegn because the Queen is a Canadian and the Queen is Canadian because Canada is sovereign. All of that poop is hogwash. But the challenge is to prove Canada is sovereign using only the Declaration of Independence as a reference. Our sovereignty goes beyond ANY Canadian or British legal document. YOUR laws only apply to YOU. They neither apply to us or Americans when we are on our own soil. O:nen

She:kon! Prove to ME that Canada is a sovereign country using the American Declaration of Independence. Nothing in it states you are so as far as they are concerned you are still a colony of Great Britian like they used to be. O:nen

She:kon! Because it was a pay-me-later plan to which the Crown said "trust us". Yet even one of your Indian Agents had a hand in our pie and your governmetn conveniently forgot about it. Good thing we don't forget,eh? Wrong! Buzzzt! Wrong! Our communties are supported by the half interest on that trust. We DO have our own electricity generation on the Grand River sustem. We do provide our own health care system, our own administration (no need for uncivil service workers like you guys , our own school system, ariport and every other thing a nation needs to survive. Plus we have something Canada does not have - good and honest democratic government, living and thriving culture, caring and relatively peaceful communities and the Haldimand Tract for our exclusive use "forever". What you don't have that we have is sovereignty based on self-determination. Instead you have a Sovereign Monarchy who allows your government some autonomy on domestic issues but who must approve any changes to your system or the supreme law. So in reality Canada is not sovereign but a subset of the Queen's colony. Don't mistake our friendship with Canada as dependence. That fact reamins we have free-trade agreements with many countries around the world and in an instant all that timber, food, minerals and industrial goods can be shipped from our territory to any nation looking for a good deal. How long do you think it would take for Canada to survive if we authorized the Americans to come in to our territories (and those of allied First Nations) and harvest our resources to you detriment? You forget that the Americans are alos our allies and for a quick buck and some good stash they will help anyone out. Don't go down that road unless you are willing to take a huge loss. O:nen

She:kon! You are still erred in your logic. Prove your case WITHOUT the Royal Proclamation or any other law. None of it applies to us or ever has. Our sovereignty is recognized by the Crown and Canada and the US. So on those premises make your case. I suggest you can't without invoking law that is not applicable. Your argument is lost. Our oral history is not like your oral history. Over the years those who depend on the written word have lost their ability to remember in the same manner as our oral tradition does. It is not the "word" of one or two people that make it valid. It is the words of many oral historians who tell relatively the same story with a few different details. And given that your written history is inherently biased against us and it repesents only one (or two) opinions of their versions of history, it cannot be relied upon the same manner as our oral history can be (and so states your Supreme Court justices). So unless you can step outside of British law and British historical texts, your argument is lost. On the other hand not only can we confirm aspects if the written history by correlating it with our oral history we can easily debunk most of what you have written as not being accurate by the same tests. Much of what you believe about Canada's history was written by bigots and racists. Not that they could help themselves because it IS part of the colonial / western anglo-european Christian thinking system. Once you step outside of that you will see a whole different picture. My bet is that you can't because it will mean everything you based yourself on is myth....and that's preferrable to reality.... O:nen

She:kon! For the umteenth time I restate the reality for you....... 1. Canada is responsible for a trust account it holds on behalf of Six nations worth about $30 billion dollars. The transfer payments we recieve (which includes the cost of health and welfare) does not even represent 1/2 of the interest on that $30 billion. By default Canada is going in the hole by about $100 million a year and by compunding interest the trust grows (to which Canada is responsible to pay back) by another billion every 6-7 years. 2. IF there is a financial settlement for the lands illegally occupied in the Haldimand Tract, then it will be substantial. By recent estimates the market value of those occupied lands exceeds $1 trillion dollars a sum that Canada could not begin to pay back without backrupting the treasury. The only option open to them for compensation would be to make a payment plan say over the next 100 years which no doubt would piss off the average Canadian because Six Nations would enjoy a higher standard of living....and well.....good luck for Indians tends to piss off the racists quite easily..... 3. What happens in settlements with individual nations across North America, is not part of this discussion. But if it was you would have to realize that most of northern Saskatchewan, all of Alberta and all of BC (with the excpetion of the recent treaties) is unceded indian territory (another fact backed by the Royal Proclamation). For the next 50 -100 years there are going to be some serious negotiations going on. And since Canadians have enjoyed prosperity and wealth off the resources, settlement and industrialization of there lands you can rest assured that there will be huge settlements which you will pay for in diminished services. 4. Taxation is YOUR problem since basically you have allowed the goverbnmetn to steal fomr you without opposition. We don't need to tax our people and are able to exist on about half of the budget that you require in your towns and cities. You could easily do without the taxes, and or the benefits from a huge tax base if someone were willing to take on the government. However, since the goal of governmetn is to redistribute the wealth, it seems that taxation benefits you as much as it burdens you. No. We'll gladly take a check for $1.5 Trillion dollars and manage our own. Unfortunately for you, your government is trying to soften the blow by begging for a deal that will allow them to pay over time. Make no mistake. We are running the show, since we will never negotiate ourselves into a loss. Canada will, however, since they really have no choice. O:nen

She:kon! Our sovereignty is "self-evident". We are not defined by the Crown like Canada is (which is not self-evident). OUr soveriengty is recognized by Canada in our present negotiations and has been recongized by the French, Britian, Canada and the US for the past 500 years. Of course the test of past soveriegnty being applicable in the present is to prove that at some time we capitulated. There is no such time where we ever became citizens of another sovereign. The Canadian myth abounds and so we are not talking about "First Nations" in this regard since every individual nation has their own definition of its relationship with the Crown. Our is (and has always been) clearly defined. The Royal Proclamation does not claim all lands as sovereign. It sets aside "Indian Lnads" as being off-limits to British subjects and the law is ONLY applicible to British subjects (and now to Canadians as part of your Charter of Rights Nad Freedoms). BY the same token the Royal Proclamation holds no authority over the US and prior to Confederation there was little in the way of defined borders in the west. Canada has only advanced itself in defiance of the law and so when someone suggests that the "rule of law" is applicable, we can see very clearly that it isn't. In true sovereign fashion Crown law was only ever meant to be applied to citizens of the Crown. It is also a myth that the Haldimand Tract came by way of the Crown. The tract was ours long before the Crown ever set foot in North America and continued to be ours long after. At one time most of our people moved to the south for a short period of time (about 50 years from approx. 1730 to 1780) but many more still continued to occupy the are in their absence. We have a earlier Treaty with the Mississaugas in about 1665 which allowed them to use our lands for hunting and fishing During our absence they are were quite aware of our intention to return. By the time we did return most of them (being forewarned of our return) had already moved back to their homelands north of Lake Superior. The few remaining Mississauga people that still lived in the tract were given a commission to move back to their traditional lands with their families. There was never any purchase or gift of the lands. We have been occupiers for 1000s of years. Just check out the local archeological soceity for more information...... So citing any British written law as proof of applicability is moot, since it was never intended to apply to us. It was and is, however intended to control you in our favour by keeping you away from us and our right to self-determination. What IS applicable is our oral history (which I have provided in small segments) which clearly not only defines our continuing title to the lands but to the reasons we demanded that the King prohibt you from settling in our territories. O:nen

She:kon! Your error in comprehension is that we are Six Nations - Haudenosaunee - not "First Nations" in general. Our soveriegnty is NOT given to us by the Crown but comes by right of preceeding the Crown's presence. Once you correct your errors, then we'll discuss it further. O:nen

She:kon! Canada is NOT a big-business capitalist country. It is a big corporatist country whose methods destroy capitalism and put any competition out of business for their own profits. Corporations do not believe in healthy competition but seek out monopolies in which to hold the average consumer hostage to their whims. Every Bank Any Oil Company Bell Rogers and many more..... O:nen

She:kon! Okwaho Hao ki wahi tanon nya:wen'kowa kyase' O:nen.

She:kon! The Royaner are not like traditinal ciefs in other nations. They do no speak for the people. Instead they would be best described as older brothers to the Clan. As the eldest sons, they demonstrate respect for the Clan Mother and guide the other sons and daughters in living right and in keeping a good mind. Because they are outside of the Clan originally and only come by marriage, they also consider the other clan houses - the community at large - in their deliberations. That not only helps them keep a balanced view of the issues being discussed but being from another clan they can empathize and help the others find the peace of mind needed in resolving their differences. In our society everyone has ~something~ they are good at that contributes to the community. This is often recognized in their names. So when a potential Royaner is watched the mothers look for attributes that will make them better representatives. As they marry, they are watched to see if they are good and caring husbands and fathers. They are noted for their ability to resolve stressful situations. When a vacancy comes up ( the position is granted for life...but in modern times a few Royaner have chosen to retire the position) the best candidate will be asked to filled the position. It is not mandatory but it is a great honour to be selected. They are the real and true sevants of the people. No Royaner can wear the title to his death and so the official name of the Ryoaner (position in the Council) is passed on to the one replacing him. We then conduct a "condolence" so that a new Royaner can be elevated into the position. O:nen

She:kon! There is no such evidence.... Better tell Yale and South Carolina Professors then: Occupation of the Americas American Humans It is well known that early explorers plundered gold and other metals from the Americas...Where else would stolen booty be? The Smithsonian holds the copper artifacts... Copper Smelting Smithsonian O:nen

She:kon! Bambi, Allof those questions have already been answered - many times over. You complain about the length of threads and then never read them. I get it you are so used to mommy spoon feeding you that you want instant gratifiaction, right? Go use the internet. I've proved links before that certify the answers I've given. If you are too lazy or lack enough intelligence to find them again then make it up with yourself. BTW Answer this if you will Bimbo.....what does it matter to you anyway except to feed your need to troll? O:nen

She:kon! Hymenbess, Is THAT why you sit there masturbating while the rest of us engage in mindful discussion. You're drooling again....can I suggest a tissue to wipe yourself up? O:nen

She:kon! Hymenbass Perhaps you should stop reading. That dumb filter you have in your head is misfiring again and it is keeping you from recognizing the truth. There are very few Six nations people in jail right now and those that are there are the result of injustice. Things are changing. Get with the times! Undermining the Rule of Law O:nen

She:kon! Of course money is all you can understand.....we don't want it. We want the land back and defined borders so no more settlers will squat on our lands. I'm sure that there will be some finiancial settlement involved somewhere, but the whole goal is restoration of our territories. O:nen

She:kon! Six Nations is not like all other First Nations. WE are soveriegn and yes, we do well for ourselves. Making generalizations about us based on some racist ignorant assumptions you have made about Native people in general is your problem, not ours. Our sovereignty and our governance system are intact and functioning. YOUR government recognizes both, since it is attempting to negotiate a deal for people living on the Haldimand Tract as we reclaim the lands that were illegally settled without our permission. So I guess by your standard of measure you must be one of those drunks or pot-heads corrupting your society OR it is statistically probable that you came from a family of them......same thing..... As a separate and independent nation we are dealing with these issues pretty successfully. Add to that that our justice processes produce a less than 10% recidivism rate (compared to Canada's 65% recidivism rate) we must be doing something right. The fact is that we are no longer going to allow you or your Canadian rapists and developers to contaminate our land with your demon seed. And to do it we have changed the Land Claims process to what it ought to be. We take and occupy our lands and let you prove you ever had a claim to it in the first place. Good luck on proving that to our satisfaction....... You mistake our ability to live autonomously beside you as being the same as you. We are not in jeopardy of your civilization failing. Rather we have preserved the knowledge and the processes to survive on little and can requicken OUR civilisation to prosperity. Like cattle grazing in an arrid field you will die of either starvation or murder as you compete for the little processed food on your supermarket shelves. And not knowing the secrets to survival you will die, one way or the other. We would surely offer you a place but you must be willing to rid yourself of your ego and your me-first mentality. O:nen