Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne'

She:kon! Look at the map and try again. The Haldimand track runs on six miles of the Grand River from its mouth at Lake Erie to its source up near Shelburne. The US is unwilling to go back on the Jay Treaty and they affirm its validity every so often. In July on Border Crossing Day every year we cross the border enmasse to test our freedom to move unimpeded across the border. You're really getting a bit punchy. Canada can't even resolve a lumber dispute with the US because the US has no use for Canadians or their complaints. What makes you think that your dispute with us would lead to a trade dispute with them? Give your head a shake! O:nen

She:kon! Jerry, That sounds either like a threat or a vex.......ha ha ha ha ha! There are quite a few non-native Canadians who know what our agenda is and they agree with us. Far more than a cheap-labour conservative like you could imagine! They strengthen our cause. I speak for myself and no one else. However it has been suggested on many occassions that many agree with me, including many non-natives who are tired of the status quo. Many of them have awakened from the typical Canadian stupour to find that we were right all along and now they stand with us, not against us. You are virtually alone in your opinion and you hardly repesent a fraction of common opinion. Most fair minded people want this inequity settled once and for all. No more government stalling. No more aboriginal disparity. No more apartheid! We also have Nunavut which defines one of the solutions, although we are not prone to becoming citizens of a non-country with less rights then we currently enjoy. O:nen

She:kon! That was only to get the government's attention and get them to the negotiating table. Can you ~imagine~ what would happen if we were really pissed? O:nen

She:kon! Try again Riverwind. Six Nations has access to to Lake Erie directly from our territory and an airport capable of shipping goods in and out. The US respects the Jay Treay and allows us free unencumber access into the States. From there the whole world is accessible. Canada has no authority over us whatsoever. My you are getting desperate..... O:nen

She:kon! One country's "freedom fighters" are the invading countries terrorists. Hypothectically speaking we would not intitate violence. We would defend ourselves for sure if push came to shove, but it would not be us causing the conflict. O:nen

She:kon! I have made no threat of violence. In fact I advocate a non-violent approach to a hypothetical question. However, I do understand your fears.....and where they originate in myth. O:nen

She:kon! Then forced fomr the land you will be. Your government will do it because they are pretty sure your have no property rights. Take you complaints to them! Pre-existing right has no paper. It has occupation and reclamation as its evidence. Taking your home from under you, should that be necessary would be as easy as shutting down your water, power and sanitary services in the middle of winter. There would be no fight and no conflilct. Its just that easy. O:nen

She:kon! Try again. Six Nations is self-sufficient. Trying to isolate us would be more of a problem for you than it would be for us. We already have active trade relations with the US, Boliva, Brazil, Mexico, France and any number of european and middle-east countries. You don't think that Canada is our only trading partner, do you? Besides where would all you non-natives buy cheap smokes and cheap gas? O:nen

She:kon! Your government is considering evicting them under the expropriations act. If that doesn't work then a physical eviction may be required. In any case, being the peaceful people we are we would likely offer them citizenship under our emmigration policies. If they refuse then they will be deported and then they become your problem. However, your government is suggesting that by moving major industry out of the Haldimand with incentives, people will naturally follow. It isn't our problem. It is yours. O:nen

She:kon! Read you consitution. YOU have no property rights. We do........through our treaties and pre-existing right. O:nen

She:kon! That's a wonderful epiphemy Jerry! Since anything the Canadian government or its people that have done to us with good intentions has alwys turned out worse for us, the sooner you realize that we want to be left alone and act on it, the better our relationship can mature. Unfortunately, since YOU or the Canadian government are not in control of this "crap" you are stuck with your side of the equation. You can dig you heels in like a child being dragged through a mall but you are coming for the ride anyway. You see the great inequities will be rectified. And you see that you and your thinking are part of the problem. Your "help" and advocating did nothing to work towards a solution. If we are going about a "anteing up" then you will come out on the downside again, given that 140 years of back rent is no owed, along with a $30 billion[/b] trust fund that went missing under the Canadian government's watch. We still know what it is worth and so pay up now before you get on your way! 140 years of using and extracting resources in addition to the cities and towns built on our lands breaks your bank. So you can leave when we tell you that we are paid in full and not a penny sooner. Since you own no property that is not under some treaty, or is unceded territory, you really have lost nothing. You may want to believe that your investment means something but like a bad stock, when you invvest in the Canadian government's promises that you own the land, then you might as well be investing in Bre-ex. Your stock is worthless and that doesn't mean we stole it but it means you made an uninformed bad investment. O:nen

She:kon! If you ever read a treaty in your life you would see that it is about recognizing and maintaing indigeneous rights to the lands, to the resources and to the ownership, while sharing it with settlers. The fact that your Charter guarantees those rights will not be dismissed validates the treaties. That aside, the Royal and Haldimand Proclamations were NOT treaties. They were a recognition by the British and (now by Canada) of the continued right of Six Nations people, and other native peoples to total ownership of the lands and absolute autonomy over them. That means that I I want to shoot a rabbit in YOUR backyard then I have that pre-exiting right. Nothing contained in the Charter (and in essence in law) can remove or alter that right. As to the Haldiamnd Proclamation it was a guarantee that the tract would be protected as our lands forever. There is no statute of limitations on "forever". I don't care whether or not YOU can stand for that or not. It is the law of your country and saving that the Queen should suddenly croak and be replaced with an inhumane dictator, you are stuck with it. Regardless our laws are separate and even if you decided to change your laws tomorrow, it would have no effect because we are subjects of our own sovereign nation and have our own set of laws. Save and except a crime of murder or rape, there is no extradition treaty between Canada and the Haudensaunee. NONE of your law, or policataal system applies to us. Get over it. It is the reality. O:nen

She:kon! What a laugh! The Bering Strait theory has been put to bed ages ago. First Nations have been in the Americas for forty thousand years - that's 10 thousand years before people first populated europe. The Bering Strait ice bridge only existed between 10,000 and 12,000 years ago. Using a tired and outdated argument is like suggesting Darwinism is still valid ...or ever was.... The reason the government is dealing with us is because we changed the rules. If you want to know what would happen if you suddenly started ignoring our claims and sovereignty ~again~, just look at Afghanistan and multiply it by 10 fold. Your heavy dependence on infrastructure makes you exposedly vunerable. You are living in the past. You education is lacking and so is your thinking. Neanderthall comes to mind but at least they had the sense to evolve themselves into oblivion.... All kidding aside..... Gufstasan (sp) Lake, Oka, Ipperwash and others were just a test. Caledonia is the real thing. The land reclamation there has advanced government action further in 3 months than 20 years of the land claims commission did. You ~think~ it isn't advancing our cause? Think again. Your government recognizes the authority of our Confederacy Council. Your government has acknowledged our rightful ownership of the Haldimand Tract and now it negotiates to find a reasonable compensation package to either allow people who wish to stay in their homes and cities or relocate them to somewhere else. Your government is looking at other lands to restore our soveriegn territory. I say... in just a few months we have made huge strides. And besides you have no say it what the final outcome will be. That's what happens when Canada has to negotiate from a lesser and weak position. You have so much that you want from us that it is like licking the icing off the cake for us as your negotiators bend over backwards just to keep the meagre crumbs left on the plate. This is all about land. To us money doesn't have the same value. It does to you because that is all you have lots of, and you die just to make enough to be comfortable. I would suggest that YOU join the 21st century. The legal reality supports us and nothing you can say or do can change that. You can change all the laws you want and take your best shot. The best that you will get is what these guys can negotiate for you, based on our ownership of the lands and their desire to stop the general public from finding out the entire truth. You might ~think~ that government is working in your best interests, no? They aren't. They are working to keep Canada from being discovered as a fraud and those at the table are earnest to settle this as quickly as possible so that we do not reveal your bogus nationhood. find out the truth would likely destroy you, since under the rules of incorporation you dod not have to follow Canadian law either. O:nen

She:kon! You are sdo far out of touch with the legal reality that your comments don't deserve any reply. Did you wake up this morning feeling a little slower that usual? Or is it a genetic disposition? O:nen

She:kon! You are coming late into this, as it has been throughly examined on a couple of other threads. The Haldimand Tract is not part of Canada. It is sovereign Haudenosaunee territory protected by the Royal Proclamation and enforced by the Haldimand proclamation. The reclamation process is a means by which we assert our sovereignty over the lands. The Government of Canada, seriously limits your rights and freedoms as a means to control you. The Haudenosaunee Constitution protects our freedoms and these are two separate systems. Our rights as onkwehon:we are inherent and guaranteed. Your rights are limited. An amendment to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not an option because Canada is not an autonomous nation. You are under the control of the Crown and only the Queen may initiate and proclaim any changes to the Constitution. It was the Queen's insistence that the Charter include a section on pre-existing aboriginal rights in recognition of our long-standing relationship on a nation to nation basis, so it is not likely she would agree to amending what she thinks is necessary. That aside it would have no effect, anyway since our law and constitution protects our rights and freedoms. Yours has no authority over us and if you read section 25 carefully you will find it is a recognition of our rights, not a grant of them. Your leaders recognize our sovereign right and will make decisions that 20 million other Canadians have no say in. The problem you as a Canadian face now is that it is lilkely that if the government doesn't not negotiate in good faith, you will be left with nothing, since your ancestors came here with nothing to start out with. Like the others you are welcome to believe in any Canadian myth you want. They don't resemble the true state of affairs and First nations must be reckoned with, whether you like it or not. You are just a number in the scheme of things, and being one in about 20 million that pretty good odds you won't shape or influence the future of Canada...any more than a flea can bother an elephant.... O:nen

She:kon! Constitution Act, 1982(1) SCHEDULE B CONSTITUTION ACT, 1982 PART I CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS 25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including (a.) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and (b.) any rights or freedoms that may be acquired by the aboriginal peoples of Canada by way of land claims settlement.(15) O:nen

She:kon! Ah...the fears of the sleepy Canadian..... "The Indians are seeking to govern us as an aristocracy...." "All of Canada is going to be evicted....." "There are no negotiations......" What happens is that when you don't have good listening skills (or reading skills) you fall back on interpreting what was said with your fear-filter. I have maintained time and time again throughout these 20 or so pages that the Haudenosaunee want nothing to do with Canadian politics or governance. If you implode - which is the likely direction you are heading - it will be on your own and you will not be taking us with you. "Brother if you wish us well, then leave us alone." Redjacket. I have also talked about eviction as being a final option to your government (at their suggestion) refusing to bargain in good faith and/or a means to harmonizing the interests of people living along the tract. No one said about the rest of Canada. However you will have to deal with other nations, since we are the first real thing. This land reclamation process is the ~new and improved~ system for regaining our territories. First we take back the lands we have a rightful claim to and then your government must prove it has a lawful right to it. It is exactly the same process that Canada has in the past forced us into. But now we see that the government was never honest about settling the claims and so we reversed the process, being absolutely serious about finding an expedient and equitible end to the process. It is us that are urgent in negotiating, in order to protect and not lose sight of our obligation to settlers who have found themselves on lands they don't hold legal title to. Your government would just as well let this go on for another 50 years, thereby increasing the ultimate payouts and affecting far more people and leaving settlers without any rights or priviledges of living on our territories.. Our goal is not to evict anyone but to find a place in our common understanding where we can both live as neighbours on the tract. Your government is resistent to that fact and prefers an all or nothing approach. We could oblige them if that is their resolve but it means that you suffer for their blunders and greed. Presently we are not intentionally interfering with people living on the tract. We are peaceably and directly focused on lands under development because we do not want to exacerbate the present problems. Our present interest and focus of negotiations is to make the government aware that the Crown lands and the vacant land belong to Six Nations and consistent with the Haldimand Proclamation no more development will be permitted. This is a necessary measure to protect the rights of settlers as well as our own. I laugh when the argument "that's old legislation and you can't expect us to comply" crapola comes out of desperation. The BNA Act is still valid. Are you suggesting that Canada's primary legislation be recinded because you don't want to recogonize YOUR old laws? Your very statement invalidates Canada, opens the door to US occupation and returns all the lands shared by treaty since then back to total First Nations control. We could live with that but I'm pretty sure none of you can......Anything else must come from negotiation with us. Our goal is Peace, Friendship and Goodwill. This is the Covanent Chain that the British adopted from our Great Law. Without it we would be adversaries and not allies. Without it Canada would not exist - even as a corporation. Without it none of you would be here to have this conversation. Perhaps you cheap-labour conservatives really want to be like the Americans with their 30% poverty level and their violent inner cities, their big business indifference to the environment and people's needs. Without us and our agreement with those old law makers it would be a vastly different place - one where even you could no longer sleep away. BTW if negotiations fail then it is no hair off our backs. We own the land and will start to do with it what we choose. There is no "let the SCC decide" because Canada does not have any jurisdiction over us. You're just blowing smoke if you think otherwise. Canada MUST negotiate or by default lose every right ever gained to share the land with us. O:nen

She:kon! The problem with a buy-out is that the Canadian government won't (and can't) pay the $1.5 trillion fair market value pricetag. It is out of their league. It is more likely that we will settle the large occupied areas like K-W if the government can secure enough equivalent lands without creating another land issue with other nations down the road. What we're really talking about are the spaces in between and those people need to make alternative arrangements. Whether or not places like Paris, or other villages become protected is another thing since it and the surrounding area is valuable in terms of resources and tillable farmland. As I have maintain, our concern is for the land - the protection and preservation of it. You make a point very well jdobbin by desisting in discussion. You exemplify the typical Canadian politic, that when you can no longer back up your opinions, you return to sleeping and burying your heads in the sand. It is no wonder to me why the Canadian government is so corrupt and out of touch with the ordinary citizen. They can't solicit an opinion when all that you can must is apathy and indignant dissolution and when they do steal fomr you, or use their position to their own advantage, the typical response is deny it is happening and look for flowery visions to fill the sight in your minds of actual corruption. Thank you for taking it this far. Though I had hoped you would have learned something, it appears whatever that might have been is for naught. It is impossible to expose sanity to people when they prefer to remain comfortable in their own insanity....I'll keep trying though. Surely others realize the light is brighter than the doom and gloom you protect. O:nen

She:kon! It would serve you well to give up on this thread Riverwind, given that you haven't added anything new in about 10 pages. The Two Row Wampum is the guide. You fear that I am proposing we are superior and I thank you for that compliment. However, our goal is to do what we set out just about 500 years ago to do- to operate independent of you and your settler mentality. We don't need your system, or your false sense of knowing what is best for us. However, your government has made a huge blunder and we are not about to pay for their mistake. The evidence we are concerned about what happens to others also caught in this untenable situation is our agreement to negotiate and try to find a reasonable and effective solution to the illegal occupation of our territory. So anything that you say to diminish this is just sour grapes coming from an impotent, ineffective cheap-labour conservative, who no longer controls all that he thought he did. If you have a problem with the results then I suggest that you take it up with your government...as if they care.....You see they main interest seems to be what will happen to the businesses now located in the territory, Their concern for you as a citizen is less than ours. They know that if they can relocate the industry and businesses that people will follow. They have also been alerted to the fact that the real estate values will drop dramatically there and so they are looking at compensation packages that will help offset that burden. You really should be a little more open to reseraching what we are all about. WE - the People - are the leaders and the decision-makers in our communties. The Roayner at the table are our servants and they only represent what WE tell them to represent. If they don't, then we impeach them and replace them with someone who does. Tell me Riverwind....what do YOU have to lose? It must be something substantial since you spend som much time trying to dismiss the reality and truth of this situation with your rhetoric. O:nen

She:kon! YOUR government is not the same thing as me saying that Canada does not exist as a sovereign nations. It is still your government - just in legal terms it is only a Crown Corporation without the autonomy to change supreme law. Your government's position at the negotiations has not yet been made public. You wouldn't have heard it yet because your bargaining representatives do not need your concurrence to make decisions. On the other hand, ours does and so we are in the loop long before you even get wind of it. BTW we are not First Nations in Canada. We are the Haudensaunee Confederacy, something completely different. O:nen

She:kon! You government has hinted that they could use expropriation laws to move the settlers. They won't change the tools they need to make a peaceful transition. Haudnosaunee law governs the tract and may soon government people living in the tract. You may want to resist that fact, but reality will dictate the course. The UN is on our side for whatever it is worth. There is already lots of precedence under international law for the safe and lawful eviction of settlers from indegeneous lands, if that is the dispute mechanism you would prefer. Canada's legal system is impotent. You really have no choice. When I first started to post here, I did think you might be an intelligent chap Riverwind, but the more you respond the more you resemble something that was dug up from the tar sands....a little slow and pretty thick. Perhaps if you weren't so lazy you might consider doing some research before you make general statements. You seem to be the last one off the wheel and it is getting pretty monotonous trying to follow you incompentent circular logic. Just 'cause YOU say it doen't make it so. An opinion is a poor substitute for fact and truth. O:nen

She:kon! Your doubt is your loss........Canadians are much more complacent than the Israelis living on the West Bank were..... O:nen

She:kon! Much discussion! First according to our Constitution ALL the people are in charge. The Royaner are representatives of the people and everything must be brought back to us for discussion, resolution and ratification. No agreement is valid until we say it is and we instruct our Royaner to sign on our behalf. The government's position now or in 1925 or 1995 is irrelevent. They have used all kinds of underhandedness to hide the real issue. The land - the entire Haldimand Tract is ours, and has been ours for thousands of years. The Crown neither purchased for us or gave it to us. The Haldimand Proclamation was an official recognition of our land, and a guarantee by the Crown that we would have it forever and they would protect it for us. The Royal Proclamation basically says the same thing amd it prohibits anyone from purchasing or leasing the lands. Only the Crown could enter into treaties for the land (sharing agreements) and there has never been a valid transfer of title. The payment the British made to the Mississaugas was not a buy out because they did not own the land. We had earlier treatied with them to watch over the lands on our behalf when our people were called back to the Great Council to help defend our interests. The Mississaugas were well aware that we would return one day and when we did finally return the British offer the Mississaugas compensation to help them relocated back to their homelands north of Superior. The Canadian government's position is irrelevent because it has no authority to define our territory. The new lands claim process that we have put in place is that we own the lands on the tract and it is up to the Canadian government to prove that there was ever a sale, lease or transfer authorized by our Royaner. Canada is in trouble because the neither Confederacy or the Crown ever authorized the leases they claim exist. The paper may have a few signatures on them but the British and the Canadian politicians knew that such an agreement was not binding UNLESS they approached the people in public meeting AND the 50 Royaner that represent the Confederacy authorized it AND the agreement contained the signature of the Queen / King. You will note that none of the documentation Canada has presented thusfar contains the requisite approvals. The government's position is irrelevent because they have no authority over us, and never have. The forced imposition of a band government may have removed the Confederacy Council from the mainstream but it is alive and well. It is still the government of the people for the Haudenosaunee and nothing that Canada says or does affects that. The government has recognized our sovereignty and authority over the tract. Negotiations with the government has nothing to do with land claims. It is about what dod we do with places like Kitchener and Caledonia - settler communities within our territory. The negotiations are focusing on ways and means to deal with those who by the malfeasance of government have found themselves in the middle of this complex problem. We can certainly explore eviction as one of the options, albeit on the extreme. We can also present the citizenship scenerio as an option too. There is also talk about the replacement of lands adjacent to the tract that will redefine the boundaries of the Haldimand Tract. However, our main concern with this proposal is that these are lands that we have treatied with the Mississaugas and the government does not have their authority to interfere. We are also looking at options that can't be revealed right now because to do so may needlessly concern residents. It is suffice to say that there are no land issues and that the government has recognized our authority for full title and it is negotiating to get the best deal possible for the settlers living there. As to using force or coercion to relocate the settlers that is something for novelists, at this point in time. We are capable for sure but it may be unnecessary since you government may be willing to relocate people on our behalf. And whether you like it or not, should an eviction be required it would be handled under expropriation laws, given that the removal of settlers to another area IS in the public interest, and it is legally binding. Canada cannot protect those that it too considers illegal occupiers of our territory. Like the dual citizenship of the Lebanese-Canadians it will provide relief for those willing to evacuate. However, should someone refuse the offer then they will be left to their own devices. To us that means if they stay (considering that is the likely resolve of our negotiations) they will become automatic citizens, accountable to us and will forfeit any aid they might have received. As mentioned earliler, current and back taxes may be paid directly to us are we search for new revenues to maintain the infrastructure on our lands. O:nen

She:kon! Certainly if the government negotiators had your attitude about letting those settlers living on the tract hang out to dry, we might very well be offering them eviction over citizenship. Fortunately, our peaceful nature, our agreement with the Crown to extend the Peace to subjects of the Crown under the Covanent Chain and our humanity towards people in a precarious circumstance propel us to search for a solution. After all is said and done we are still neighbours..... O:nen

She:kon! We're not discussing land claims. We're discussing the safety and settlement of Canadians living on our lands. The government has already acknowledged our title to the lands and it now must deal with the problem of all the illegal and invalid deeds that non-natives hold within the tract. We don't need to discuss this with the Crown since the Canadian and provincial governments take responsibilty for people who pay their taxes to them. O:nen