Temagami Scourge

Wikipedia actually has both Canadian serial killers and Canadian mass murderers as topics. Serial killers are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cana..._serial_killers and mass murderers are here: Wikipedia-Canadian mass murderers Now, I do have some issues with both categories. In the serial killers category, they include Thomas Cream, who was a serial killer from the 1800's. I do not include him in discussion because we've had more activity of this nature since post WW-II. I find the mass murderers more distressing because it misses Pierre Lebrun (OC Transpo shooter) and Victor hoffman, the Shell Lake murderer. Likewise, I do not want to include Mark Chahal, the guy who killed his ex and several of her family members at his ex-sister-in-law's wedding, and not becuase he is Indo-Canadian, but because that was more of a violence against women episode, nor do I want to use the recent Biker murders or the murder of 14 people in a vault in Montreal because these are more related to purposeful criminal activity. I've checked through all the names and, with the exception of Lepine and his half-Algerian heritage, all are Caucasian-canadian. There are 10 serial killers (adding Pickton) and 6 mass-murderers (adding Hoffman and Lebrun) in the post WW-II era. I hope this is a good base to start from. To be honest, I completely forgot about Fabrikant. I was living in the bush at the time, so news items usually reached me a bit later than everyone else with a T.V. or radio. I found out about Gorbachov's incarceration and Yeltsin's rise to fame after it had all transpired, and they were about at the same time. Mass murder stats is drastically changed by now. A person who murders two or more members of his own family falls into the category of a mass murderer. We've seen a slew of them happening steadily in the last few years. And they belong to various racial groups. not drastically, but changed yes. I was giving this some thought to see where a good cut-off point would be. I don't agree with someone who kills two or more family members because that is a family thing and not an "open-up-on-the-crowd" thing. I think the best way to get around this bugaboo is to call "going postal" style killings mass murders, and internal family murder-suicide, or straight murders as "mass killings". In that way, it may be possible to avoid confusion. Under your proposal, the kid that killed the two people in the GTA last Friday while roadracing would qualify as a "mass murderer", and that is clearly not what we are trying to define.

No, I can provide no link because this is something that has been going around the AFN & COO. People from those organizations who have helped at reserves with high suicide rates always note that the most religious of the fly-in reserves are always the most prone to youth suicide. They are also quick to note that youth suicide is no where near the same level, or simply not an occurence, on reserves where Christian religion is dying out and the old beliefs are coming back. Religion was not mentioned in any of the studies. Btw, what is AFN and COO? The AFN is the Assembly of First Nations and the COO is the Chiefs of Ontario. I know many folk who work with both organizations.

Mr. Fleabag: 1) I'm not trying to flamebait. I'm raising awareness. I believe that discussing social ills that can impact on greater society can be done as long at it is in an appropriate manner. We don't participate in mindless finger-pointing on this thread. If people want that, they can go to Caledonia. 2) I see what you infer regarding how disingenuous it is to claim a race can be helped. However, if you look at my above post on serial killers and mass murderers, all are Caucasian. I also note that, although I agree that serial killing and mass murder can happen anywhere in the world, caused by anyone, that is clearly not the case in Canada. I will agree that, if we were to help those in the Caucasian-Canadian community, we would have to divide assistance to the French and non-French caucasian communities. In this respect, there may be a cultural component as the Franco-Canadian community does appear to have a number of differences and norms not shared by the non-Franco-Canadian caucasian community. This too, could make for some differences. To make matters even more poignant, the Canadian serial killers are largely Anglo-Canadians, and the mass-murderers are largely Franco-Canadian just from going on names. This is definitely where culture could be a defining feature in this argument.

Betsy: As promised, I brought along links: Wikipedia actually has both Canadian serial killers and Canadian mass murderers as topics. Serial killers are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cana..._serial_killers and mass murderers are here: Wikipedia-Canadian mass murderers Now, I do have some issues with both categories. In the serial killers category, they include Thomas Cream, who was a serial killer from the 1800's. I do not include him in discussion because we've had more activity of this nature since post WW-II. I find the mass murderers more distressing because it misses Pierre Lebrun (OC Transpo shooter) and Victor hoffman, the Shell Lake murderer. Likewise, I do not want to include Mark Chahal, the guy who killed his ex and several of her family members at his ex-sister-in-law's wedding, and not becuase he is Indo-Canadian, but because that was more of a violence against women episode, nor do I want to use the recent Biker murders or the murder of 14 people in a vault in Montreal because these are more related to purposeful criminal activity. I've checked through all the names and, with the exception of Lepine and his half-Algerian heritage, all are Caucasian-canadian. There are 10 serial killers (adding Pickton) and 6 mass-murderers (adding Hoffman and Lebrun) in the post WW-II era. I hope this is a good base to start from. To be honest, I completely forgot about Fabrikant. I was living in the bush at the time, so news items usually reached me a bit later than everyone else with a T.V. or radio. I found out about Gorbachov's incarceration and Yeltsin's rise to fame after it had all transpired, and they were about at the same time.

Betsy: How does suicide effect those who didn't go to residential school? The common answer in Indian Country is that abuse (of whatever variety) has a generational impact. Even the RCAP reports on this impact. When I refer to generational impact, I mean that if Grandpa went to residential school and was abused physically, emotionally and sexually, then the chances of him repeating that act on his own children or on nieces and nephews is far greater. If Grandpa's kids turn into abusers because of what they suffered, then a whole other generation -who never stepped foot in a residential school- are now impacted. Couple these emotions with addictive substances, and then you have the beginnings of a suicide problem. still, we are beginning to drift off-topic. The other two posts you put up looking at serial killers and mass murderers is very interesting. In essence, we can probably say that there appears to be different "layers" of mass murder, and that serial killers and mass murderers are very different. This hypothesis I agree with. Mass murderers are always a "one-shot" deal, whereas serial killers like the "thrill" of repeating their crime, and do go to lengths to get caught.

Betsy re: religion and Aboriginal suicide No, I can provide no link because this is something that has been going around the AFN & COO. People from those organizations who have helped at reserves with high suicide rates always note that the most religious of the fly-in reserves are always the most prone to youth suicide. They are also quick to note that youth suicide is no where near the same level, or simply not an occurence, on reserves where Christian religion is dying out and the old beliefs are coming back.

Argus: Although this is Rue's from your post, you must admit that is an incredibly accurate statement, especially after the Enron decision came down recently. Maybe we can start a discussion on similar to this thread, but focussed on white collar crime. I wonder who the "some" are? Still, I have no idea why we are talking about Jamaican gangs on a thread dedicated to racial profiling mass murder and serial killing in Canada. Argus...this is excellent! I see the point now. Just as Bratton says that we need to talk about the possibility of Jamaican involvment in gang crime, we also need to talk about Caucasian involvment in serial killing and mass murder. Bratton is right, it is only harming us to live in denial when we could be doing something proactive to halt this problem. That makes sense, and I'm glad that you've come on board with this discussion. much appreciated.

Rue, the above post was truly, truly , one of the most eloquent and thoughtful posts I've seen here, period. I also agree with your perspect that profiling and stereotyping are more damaging than worthwhile. Its going to take some time to digest all you've written, and I wouldn't want to be insulting to try to make a quick comment on such thoughtful commentary. T.S.

Argus: I suggest you heed the moderator's warnings. He has provided you with excellent advice on how to overcome your proclivity for pointless chatter. However, I do find this sentence deeply disturbing: "I've dealt with your kind on many other forums. I have no trouble putting you in your place." Do you have a problem with Aboriginal people using forums? I would never say this to anyone regardless of their background. As I've said, if you want to bring race into the equation on a negative note, then we certainly don't have room for you here. any more of these kinds of statements and I'll have to report you to the administrator.

yes I do. I'll have to go get the disk and i'll try to put out info on monday, or maybe Tuesday. Although, i must admit that I'm surprised that you can't find info on the net. I've found a wealth of info there, and quite often you need to use American resources to find Canadian material. That might help in your searches.

You bring up an excellent point. bullying. I hadn't considered that aspect, but it does make sense when compared to learned behaviour. bullies are often both the victim and the agressor, and this contrary set of circumstances might provide the mental stimulus to go off the deep end. Can you expand on this a bit? What bullying to some...may just be harmless kidding around. As I said, who knows what goes on in the minds of people at some given time (taking into consideration a lot of other factors involved...in other words, a typical "bad day" when everything seem to go wrong can just be the perfect trigger for someone who cannot handle the situation.) It could also be due to the mental imbalance, some may have perceived slight where actually none was intended. Perhaps, someone "carrying a chip on his shoulder" is a perfect symptom of someone who may be unable to face and deal with everyday life...and this could either trigger a mass murder....or for some, suicide. Take for example suicide among the young people in the reserves or Indian communities. If I understand it correctly, you've got major problems with your youth. The high percentage in one population and environment compared to the rest of the country is indeed alarming. I bet factors that trigger mass murder could also trigger suicide. What is interesting about suicide on reserves is that it appears to be the heaviest on reserves that are openly Christian. Reserves that have a growing population of "traditional" people practising their original religion are not impacted anywhere near the same extent. The sad irony is that those reserves who are the impacted the worst and seek help are also the ones that demand that no"devil worshippers" ie traditional people, fly in to assist. Although the Christian factor seems to be a link, there haven't been any studies following this possibliity (yet) beccause of opposition from the churches, I understand. Still, just like those people who are trying to find the answer to suicide, alcohol abuse, incarceration and other social ailments, the need is to identify these social ills and act on it. Burying our head in the sand, even about serial killing and mass murder in Canada, is doing a disservice to our selves and our communities. One of the things that we could discuss differently to avoid confusion is speaking about serial killing and mass murder in different streams. Serial killing has a planning aspect not shared by mass murders, which involves planning to the extent of what the weapon(s) of choice are, and a general idea of who the target will be ie. bus employees, postal employees, minorities or women.

If you are interested in making a donation, the contact info is at the bottom of the release. Maybe Kaledonians can get something going for themselves too: MEDIA RELEASE May 25th, 2006 We invite our Brothers, Sisters, Friends and Allies to a BENEFIT CONCERT FOR "KANENHSTATON "- THE PROTECTED PLACE, FRIDAY, JUNE 16TH, IN SIX NATIONS (Chiefswood Park) OHSWEKEN, ON STARTING AT NOON - NO DRUGS,ALCOHOL OR VIOLENCE - ZERO TOLERANCE As I am sure you are now all aware of the tense situation in Six Nations with regards to reclamation efforts, and that we are in the process of stopping the illegal construction of a housing project on Six Nations land. We need your continued help, solidarity and support to stand with us. Our talented and successful Indigenous performers and entertainers would be honored to perform for ALL our brothers, sisters, friends and allies. We are inviting you ALL to a Benefit Concert in Support of Six Nations Reclamation Efforts, and bring peace to a difficult situation. Admittance to the concert will be by cash donation, and will be kept in trust for the Reclamation Efforts. As the SPEARHEADER of this Concert, we want to say KHENORONHKWA, (we offer you love medicine) as we appreciate all the Indigenous artists and musicians who have already confirmed and stand with us in support. It has been OVERWHELMING. We have Keith Secola, Willie Dunn, The Shane Anthony Band, The Pappy Johns Band, Digging Roots, Howard Lyons and Joseph Fire Crow (just to name a few), confirmed for the big date. In total we have over 27 bands booked for this date, and they are coming from as far away as New Mexico to do this!!!!!! Please note that All our First Nations performers are coming to do this Benefit Concert on their own dime, and out of the goodness of their hearts, to stand in solidarity with Six Nations and The People. We also want to say a HUGE and heartfelt Nya:wen (thank you) to our Brothers at GRAND RIVER ENTERPRISES, who have stepped up to the plate and have sponsored a World Class Stage with all the bells and whistles. Only the BEST will do for our First Nations Artists and Entertainers!!!! We have also been receiving donations of Artwork from Aboriginal Artists across Canada and the US, so that we may have an Art Auction with all the proceeds going to the Reclamation Efforts in Six Nations. The date of this Auction will be announced at the concert. KEEP IT COMING....A BIG THANK YOU TO OUR TALENTED FIRST NATIONS ARTISTS OUT THERE!!! NYA:WEN KOWA!!! Well known First Nations Actor, Gary Farmer,(Pow Wow Highway, Smoke Signals)and First Nations Actress/Singer Cheri Maracle(Black Fly, Moccasin Flats) have confirmed their support as MC for this benefit. You are ALL welcome to come and support us, and enjoy some of the finest First Nations talent across Canada and the U.S. Indigenous artists CAN make a difference. Let's all take a stand together. ITS FOR OUR CHILDREN AND THEIR FUTURE. WE NEED TO REMEMBER WHERE WE CAME FROM. We need to rally behind Six Nations and The People. Please send this on to your fellow Indigenous Musicians, Artists, and Entertainers. We want to show the Unity among our Peoples and our supporters across Canada and the U.S.. LETS TURN THIS INTO AN INDIGENOUS ""WOODSTOCK FOR UNITY"" If you are NOT available to perform, then please feel free to send any donations; Art work, CDs, or anything you can, from your heart, to show your support. Keep up the great work everyone!!!!!! Please contact our events Coordinator, Tuesday Johnson-MacDonald, of TAP Resources (519-445-1794) [email protected] on how YOU can help, and/ OR SEND MONETARY DONATIONS TO : TAP Resources, Six Nations Reclamation Efforts P.O. Box 669, Ohsweken, ON N0A 1M0 Performers and Artists: Contact David R. Maracle, www.davidrmaracle.com before May 31, 2006 to confirm your appearance as a performer, 613-396-2767;

River: The number may be small, but the impact is very substantive on society. No one wants to go to work only to find out that they guy two bus seats down just pulled a gun from under his clothing...in much the same way as all those people who went to work at the WTC on 911 didn't expect to die at the hands of radicals. Even using 911 as a non-Canadian example, the U.S. governemtn has put in place all manner of measures to keep planes from flying into buildings...and that occurs far, far less than a mass murder. I do understand what you mean about a lack of evidence on a statistical basis, but look at the photos of our serial killers and mass murderers since 1950, and they are all caucasian, with the exception of Lepine, who was half caucasian and half-Algerian. No matter how we want to slice or dice things, this issue resides in one portion of our population. In essence, are you making the point that racial profiling is not a good way of going of addressing crime? Nor I, but the important point was stopping white vans, not who the driver was. A profiler might say it is likely a caucasian perpetrator, but the main point is "likely". I don't think this is example enough to say racial profiling works...especially when caucasians and hispanics could pass for one another from a distance. But on another note, when the Washington shootings were happening, my profile of the killer was that it was someone with military training in sniping, and that there were likely two of them because military snipers work in teams, and whoever was doing the killing was far too successful to be a "lone" gunman. Race and color were irrelevant. I think this is the most serious problem with using racial profiling. As I' said on other threads, the net gets cast too wide, and not every person stopped is treated with respect. It doesn't take much to start public/police animosity, and racial profiling doesn't ad to that. Do bear in mind that when we are talking about profiling, we aren't talking about descriptions. If someone posts a picture of a wanted felon on T.V., that is not profiling. Having someone else come on T.V. after wards and say that the felon's entire community is prone to crime, then that;s profiling. Thanks for the input River.

Read through the majority of posts and you'll note that there actually is interesting and adult discussion going on here. We are maintaining a decorum. If the subject matter is too difficult for you, then don't participate. Please. I've dealt with your kind on many other forums. I have no trouble putting you in your place. However, given the rules of this forum I've been warned previously by the moderator for responding in kind to people who have little interest in anything other than insults and attitude. That's why I report such things now. If the moderator says race baiting is okay with him then I'll respond appropriately to you too. Argus; Will you please stick to the topic. If you want to villify me, then start a thread doing so. We do not want a repeat of the name-calling from the Six Nations web, so please either help out or stay out. The choice is entirely yours.

This whole imbroglio is censorship, regardless of what color of government is in power. Both the liberals and the Conservatives have always tried to suppress the press corps...the prime difference is that Harper promised us a more open government, and we are not seeing the type of openess one would expect from him. Others may defend Herper's decision, but all that is doing is enabling the Feds to devise policy and process without the bothersome public being involved. With the press, he is clearly showing us that he only wants to work with certain Canadians. That is not open government.

Sahara From what I hear, there are a lot of folks on Six Nations who are pissed at the vandals and want them punished. They see those goofs as ignoring the wishes of the Clanmothers and Chiefs and raising havoc on their own. You never piss off the Clanmothers and Chiefs. Hopefully the police will get them before the people do. Nya:weh

Betsy: You bring up an excellent point. bullying. I hadn't considered that aspect, but it does make sense when compared to learned behaviour. bullies are often both the victim and the agressor, and this contrary set of circumstances might provide the mental stimulus to go off the deep end. Can you expand on this a bit?

Argus: Read through the majority of posts and you'll note that there actually is interesting and adult discussion going on here. We are maintaining a decorum. If the subject matter is too difficult for you, then don't participate. We don't need people going off on tangents like on the Six Nations thread, and the moderator is aware of this thread.

I'm excited by the prospect of a Sabres/Oilers series. At least I'll have a shot at driving down to Buffalo to catch a game. I'm not "un-Canadian", but I like Buffalo's team speed, and that will make the difference. maybe not in a long series, but if we are looking at five games...hmmmm?

Sorry all, I apologize for going off topic on this thread.

Argus: Look Argus, I'm trying to be civil, and I am disgusted with the fact that I let my anger overcome me; however, you certainly aren't going to tell me that you are blameless in this episode. If you can't let your anger drop, then that is your problem. I'm not going to go through every post you've ever written to "prove" I'm right...I'm just leaving it behind and trying to move on. All I'm suggesting is that you try the same, and leave out the personal attacks. If you doubt my sincerity, then there is nothing I can do about it. I just hope you can change and be civil, whether you like me or not.

Mr. T. Fleabag Yes, across the world mass murderers can be of every persuasion, however, this discussion is focussed on our experience here in Canada, and so far, this problem has been almost exclusively in the caucasian community. Do you know of any factors in the caucasian Canadian community that could cause this problem? Some people have mentioned mental issues as the root cause...in particular, Rue postulated that a mix of genes and learned behaviour could be one of the prime causes, and I'm inclined to agree. However, what behaviour would set off a mass killing? That seems to be one of the key questions. Again, I disagree on the grounds that I don't believe in shrugging our collective responsibility off so cavalierly. I think that there must be something we can do to help our caucasian brothers and sisters. I don't think anything is out of reach if we really put our heads together and talked this issue through. Besides, the U.S. has already long profiled serial killers. I believe Betsy already has a link to that in an earlier post on this thread. What do you mean when you say the numbers need to be significantly higher? How can anyone know where the "line" is? Even Ipsos-Reid uses the +/- 4% as their range, but the range between 87% and 100% is 13%...three times Ipsos. To me, that is a very significant difference. The "the top of the food chain" comment is another postulation. For example, if you were brought up to believe that the world is your oyster and you can do anything you set your heart to if you work hard at it, and then lose a job to a woman or a minority person, could the resulting feeling of emasculation act as a trigger? Is that a resonable hypothesis or nothing at all? Does that make sense Theo? you're bringing up some good points, though.

Argus: feel free to look into the mirror.... Well, I've stopped trading insults. I'm just trying to focus on the topic at hand. You seem stuck in the past, though. Try working through it all.

leafless: Geez...we could have used your opinion back in 1995, when this whole issue first went to court at the SCC. H How come you didn't get on the Feds case then, instead of waiting til now? would've saved a lot of anguish in the present. On another note, are you trying to argue that the actions of the Kaledonians at the blockade were civilized? Buddy, I've seen more civility coming from a bunch of drunked-up fans fighting at an Argo game than anything we've seen at Kaledonia.

Scrib...believe it or not, but you just identified the Kaledonians with the above post. I guess that means that both parties at the blockade were terrorists, by your definition. If that is the case, then the Army needs to take out both groups, correct?