Temagami Scourge

Umm... Democracy. As a matter of fact, modern democractic states and their consitutions (esp. Canada, the US) and even the United Nations Charter are based on Haudenosaunee Law (which was written over 1000 years ago) We are nothing special geoffrey, and do not claim to be above or below anyone.......If the roles were reversed, who knows, maybe some of you would compromise your integrity, sacrifice your history, silence your voice, shun your culture - because that's what it takes to feel safe... i'd like to think that no one would do that, because without history and identity, you are nothing. ahnee, Ahni: I would like to commend you on your reply to Geoffrey regarding what Natives did for Canada, as I found it well thought out, lucid and informative. However, I also want to point out that many non-Native people like to ask questions seeking to compare caucasian contributions and Aboriginal contributions to Canada because -thanks to our education system- all most Canadians know about Canada is what our caucasian population did, and even that only refers to the leaders ie Prime Minister's, Rail Barons, General's etc. The other tack is for people like Geoffrey to take credit for everything in Canada because he likely shares the same racial background as all our Prime Ministers, and the same goes for people who invented cars and trains. I find this attitude of taking credit for the work of others rather surprising. Many people of European extraction would never compare themselves to Hitler simply because of shared European heritage, but they take full credit for the invention of the snowmobile because "white people created it for society", even though they have nothing in relation to Armand Bombardier apart from a common heritage. This can be even more amusing if you consider that Geoffrey and others with the same perspective may not be anything more than towel attendants at the local bath house, and yet they get online and said "well we did this and we did that...."

I haven't heard anything about Toronto muslims telling Harper to be quiet, and I read the Star, Globe and Sun daily. Is this new, and if so, why are you decrying the "few" Islamic leaders who may have been upset with Hapah, when the many are totally against this and awaiting tonght's Stanley Cup opener?

Harper's a moron. We are a target because we are in Afghanistan, and anyone with a hate on for the West will note that the Canadian Army is actively killing committed Islamiscists like the Taliban, and doing nothing for people like the young Khadr at Guantanamo. It's not how we live or about jealousy with our society. We have decided to stand with the west, plain and simple. I just wish a politician would lay aside the rhetoric and call a spade a spade. what's next..."no...we aren't at war...."

Are you kidding Betsy? Again, you have a thorough lack of understanding of Canadian history. Being here "first' is why the Crown has a legal relationship with the Aboriginal people in this country. That is why the Irish, the Italians, the Jamaicans, the Peruvians (oh, and Filipinos) and anyone else calling themselves an Ethnic group can't claim a legal relationship with the Crown....because they opted to come here. As I've often said, the Crown did not sign treaties with the Native people here just because their skin was brown and their hair was black. The Crown signed treaties in Canada because they wanted a legal method of bringing title of the land under their authority, and the Proclamation issued by the King in 1763 already outlined the method to go about bringing these surrenders about. That, to the great misfortune of many posters on these threads, is the history. People forget that the land called "Canada" was traded for all the benefits and rights that Aboriginal people have now. and as I often said, I would gladly give up the benefits and rights in exchange for the land, as per the original deal. anytime, anywhere and on anyday.

The bottom line is that the Crown -in its various incarnations- has to both live up to it commitments in the treaties and deal with unanswered questions using a non-Canadian court as the ultimate arbiter. If the Crown botheres to meet its commitments, we would never have seen residential schools or Indian Acts or anything else that has eventually turned up to pit Aboriginal people against Canada, and now by extension, other Canadians. Secondly, I don't believe a Canadian court will ever give a fair shake to First Nations who bring land claims before the courts, because the courts are made up of Canadian judges, and these judges have only the interest of the majority in mind. How can you ask a judge for a ruling if that judges' house or cottage lay on the land in question, or better yet, how can a judge rule for First Nations when they know that their ruling could set a precedent that brings ownership of their house or cottage into question. Never happen. Many Canadians may come online here and cry about the court system, but if there is one thing I kow for certain, the court system in this country is here exclusively to protect and support the rich, and there are very, very few rich Natives, ergo no support from the justice system.

Fixer...I'm of the impression that they are in his mouth more often than not. Don't encourage him. On the other hand, I hink it is a bad move on CUPE's part to take sides in the conflict. What's worse is that it looks increasingly like the Palestinians are on the verge of a civil war. Admonishment is one thing, but outright support is another.

Argus: please, can you prove that Natives didn't own the land before Europeans stepped foot here? and don't link us to one of those Klan websites that talks about conspiracies and stuff....just actual fact, with maps to show the little pieces. After that, you can tell us what Jesus had at the Last Supper.

Except it wasn't your house. It didn't belong to you. You lived on tiny pieces of it. The vast land holdings was a European concept to begin with. Besides, half the time you stole what you had from some other tribe, and killed them all so they couldn't complain afterwards. When I start an "Idiot Savant" thread, I'll know who to invite.

Renegade: Personally, I don't want people fighting my battles, and I believe that running to the moderator is a sure sign that a person cannot look after their own. Secondly, going to the moderator is only an adult way of tattletaling. I prefer to handle things by myself, but everytime I step up to the plate, people run to the moderator on me. I also respond in kind because posts like that are not removed. When they are not removed, then others who come here later will assume that what is said is OK, and that is not the case. Thank you for your indulgence, though. I already asked the moderator to lock the thread two days ago as I knew it was going where it currently is, so I'm left to wait and rebut until that time.

Why should there be? This was exactly what Scourge has been begging for, fishing for, trolling for. It is the inevitable result of starting a racebaiting thread. Uhoh...sounds like someone's jealous.....

victim mode? Ok...if it's one set of posters saying I'm in attack mode and the other is saying I'm in victim mode...what gives? Personally Newbie, I gave you concise answers with some tongue-in-cheek rolled in. It appears that you haven't a clue as to what constitutes a legal agreement and exchange, but I'll try to spell it out for you. Please read slowly... In my best "victim" voice, i'll write it as clear as I can be: The Crown and the Natives signed agreements called treaties where the land (aka Canada) was signed away in exchange for certain rights and benefits (housing, medical and education, tax exemption and a plot of land called a reserve). I would gladly give up the rights and benefits in exchange for the land. That was the deal, was it not? You, however, are trying to tell me that I should give up the rights and benefits for....what? Nothing. You are trying to tell me that we are "equal" when I no longer have treaty rights or benefits, and yet you and the government still get to keep the land we exchanged in the first place!? Forgive me newbie, but here is where I switch from "Victim" mode to "are you F*cking crazy" mode. Are you f*cking crazy? Why on God's green earth would I give up what my ancestor's exchanged the land for? To make you feel better? Give me a break. Nothing in this world is for free...do you get that? Nothing. If that is too hard for you to understand, then try this analogy: Canada was my house and I sold it to you. you agreed to pay a certain mortgage made up of a number of rights and benefits, and I get the basement. you agreed to pay in perpetuity. Comprende?

I usually take offense when someone infers that my mother, sister, wife, cousins and every Native woman I know is a whore. Should I smile and wave Renegade?

Launching a war on Terror was not a bad thing. Expanding the "War on Terror" was a horrible miscalculation on the part of the U.S. I said long ago that the U.S. needed to keep its focus in Afghanistan, and use that country as a shining example of what could be achieved with proper support. Now Afghanistan is starting to erode because the U.S. is too focussed on Iraq. Our own army has sustained more casualties since January than we did when we first went in. Apparently, Mrs. Bush forgot to teach Junior that old adage that "you finish what you start before starting something else". Pull out of Iraq and go back to Afghanistan. that is where bin-Laden and pals are.

Rue: Betsy is intelligent, but I don't fully agree with your assessment, nor do I think you fully comprehended what I was saying. What does truly astound me is that Mongomery Burns just had a post go up that says that he will kill Natives under the right circumstances and that Native women are all whores. ...and you put up a post lecturing me. That, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with Canadian society. White people killing Native folks somehow gets this "Oh boys will be boys" attitude...and I have over 500 dead Native women to back that point up, but when Native folks stand up for themselves, they are considered "terrorists" that are"living in the past" and should have the army used on them like in Haditha. Rue, I've always had respect for you until this moment. I, nor any other self-identified native, have never said on any thread that we promote the killing of Caucasian people, or have cast aspersions on white women or children, and yet you can calmly blow by what Monty said because "I" have the problem. You severely disappoint me.

What I find even more astonishing is that it was the Federal government that wanted the court case switched from litigation to negotiation back in 1995. Why would they do such a thing when the Feds knew about the 1841 "sale" and all the other documents that have been popping up suggesting that the land in question was a done deal. If the Feds were so certain that things were in their favour, they would have pressed on with the court case and hammered the Six Nations... but they didn't. they know that there is far more involved that what the public knows, and the public is being fed with more misinformation on a daily basis. About the only "good" thing that came out of the blockade was that we truly got to see the depth of hatred Canadians have for Native people. This should be a wake up call for all those people in our communities who keep saying that we need to work with non-natives. Bull crap. we need to protect ourselves from these people. That is what is clear.

We can't blame the soldiers entirely for these two events. The politicians who put them in that position through their own poor planning and estimations bear the ultimate responsibility, but they are the ones coming out now (like Bush yesterday) saying that the soldiers will be punished if found guilty. Bush, Chinny and rummy should be punished for telling all and sundry that the Iraqis would welcome the U.S with open arms, and I can cite about a 1000 IED expolsions that back up that point.

Monty: Partie deux Are you saying you are a serial killer? Is it in your constitution to be a mass murderer? Have you sought help for your mental affliction Taxpayer Burnski? It sounds like you might have all the necessary prerequisites to become a mass killer. you should see a professional. I can probably find a couple of good referrals for you in Saskatoon, even from here in the GTA. I've been there many times and know a few folks. I also bet that I get hit up for coin more often than you do when in Saskatoon because folks see me as a "brother". speaking of which, how come most of the people begging me for coin in downtown T.O. are Caucasian? send us some Native beggars to keep me company, and I'll send you some Ukrainian beggars to make you feel better. Snore....snore...hunh...wha? Oh...maybe that was their land. you never know. I've pulled up to my house on Lake Temagami to find caucasian people camped on my island. I guess it happens everywhere. Hey, take it up with your Saskatchewan buddies. I live in Ontario and I don't see that, especially at Six Nations. You should see the race track there! I don't trash homes. My brother builds homes. You make no sense. I do know the site, and I agree with much of what is on there, which is why I'm having a hard time wondering why you are accusing me of everything under the sun. I pay tax. I look out for my own. I've defended this country. My question is, for such a big talker, what have you done for this country? Good analysis. So...you believe Native women are whores? Is that what you are infering Taxpayer Burnski? My mother, sister, wife, sisters in law are all whores, eh? Well, I guess that is better than Ukrainian men who like to rape young children. Too bad they couldn't just stay on the farm and go about their business, but instead, they drive around Saskatchewan looking for young Aboriginal kids to rape. The best part is that they get off because they just tell the judge that the child was a whore anyway, eh? I know...throwing things at the Native people, starting fights with the poor Natives, but worst of all, now we find out that they shot a Native protestor with a pellet gun, cutting the Native man's face! Absolutely unbelievable, and the worst part is that they won't be caught and no investigation is underway. .....and this is Canada? Yep...darn tootin' pardner! Git out the ol' shotgun an show them Injuns a thing or two. Hahahahahahahaha....ahaahahaahaha Now that is funny! hoo-ah Taxpayer Burnski! You go get'em lad! But don't show your face here or you might get a good whupping and have some proper manners handed to you. It would be my unarmed pleasure. In fact, I'll even let folks know when I'm next in Saskatoon on business so we can discuss this matter in greater detail. Et tu brute

Monty: (Partie une) No. I have nothing to do with August. In fact, he too takes umbrage with this thread, so i'm of the impression that you two have much in common. Additionally, if you find the terms "Euro-Canadian" and "Caucasian-canadian" too harsh, how's about I call you "Taxpayer"? Would that help? I should think so, you don't seem to have a clue about what we were talking about just judging from what you written here. You saved yourself much embarrassment, Taxpayer. Mooching? How? treaty agreements are one thing, but I pay my taxes, and I'm glad that some of it goes to maintaining Canada's treaty obligations. If you aren't then feel free to leave this country for another where your taxes don't hurt as much. I wouldn't say that either if I had surrendered like they probably did. You can thank my two Native Grandfather's who probably accepted their surrender during the First War. I'm sorry about the farmland, but face it, you're Ukrainian, what do you expect? Cool! So if you are willing to throw me in the same group as homeless Saskatoon Natives, then it is fair to put you in the same group as child-raping priests! However, I won't. I know that are not representative of every white person in Canada because that would be a gross insult to white people in Canada. Also, it highlights my intellectual superiority because I don't make blanket assumptions about people and beleieve that all are the same. that is shallow, much like your train of thought...or should I say tricycle of thought (hahahah....that's a good one)! con't

...and all I'm trying to say Betsy is that you really have no knowledge of Canadian history, just judging from your comments. You should listen to me more often. I'm quite the student of Canadian history. American too. Unlike many others here, I don't get my understanding of history from watching old John Wayne movies.

Newbie: Not really. But as i've oft said on this site, I'd gladly exchange all the status benefits and treaty rights in exchange for the land. That was the original deal. I don't see why you should get anything for free when the rest of us need to work for what we have. For the most part, the Natives want the land. I'm sure some would want money, but we are all different in our outlook. Additionally, after seeing what "wonderful" neighbours Kaledonians turned out to be, I think pushing the idea of integration is asking a bit much, isn't it? What one calls "support", another calls "mortgage payment". We exchanged our land for a number of benefits, rights and a plot that remained under our control. Now you don't want to pay. Hmmmm. and you have the gall to say that Natives get free stuff. We don't get anything for free, we traded the land, and you can't grasp that. Of course this is not the 1800's...Natives are far more sophisticated now. In fact, we are so sophisticated in our approach that it pisses off many Canadians who have this idea that Natives should be content with trinkets and baubles, and should live in the 1800's...kinda like you. Unfortunately, common sense and respect for agreements are lost on people like you who expect free stuff for nothing. As long as Canada owns the land. As per our legal agreement, give the land back, and we'll no longer be tax exempt or have any further treaty rights or benefits. Fair enough? Are you assuming I don't? Don't worry, your in good company already. Many others naturally assume I and the other Native folks on these boards don't work. Whereas, I know that 100% of Canada's serial killers and mass murderers are Caucasian, and that's not an assumption, that's the truth. When is enough enough? I don't know, ask the folks that were raped at residential school that question and then get back to us. Oh...and violent child rape was not a treaty benefit too, in case you get that mixed up.

What a ridiculous thread. At the rist of echoing some other comments wouldn't it be wise to look at the reasons why "your" people are occupying most of the spaces in Canadian jails before judging other races as potential killing machines? As for "Euro-Canadian," I was born here and am not a hypenated Canadian. My grandparents were born in other countries and left their culture and language behind when they moved here. They wanted to totally integrate into the existing society. Instead of racially profiling, how about working towards the definition and identification of all Canadians being equal. newbie: Yes, I guess you are new because you missed much of the prior discussion that preceeded this topic. I can't fault you for that. I would like to see what you mean when you mention Canadians being equal. Many have said it, but they also don't mean it.

Betsy Partie deux: Thankful? I had two grandfathers and a brace of cousins who fought the Kaiser in WWI. I even had a Belgian guy digital photo the names of some of my relations from the Menin Gate and email it to me so I could send it to my family members. Do you know what the Menin Gate is? That is in Ypres, where they were killed keeping back the German hordes. My dad, uncle, aunt and another whack of cousins fought in WWII. I have three cousins from the Korean War. I have relations who fought in Vietnam, in gulf War I and are now in both Iraq and Afghanistan. If anything Betsy, since my family has proven their commitment to Canada and the U.S., maybe you should thank me on their behalf. (and that doesn't include my relations who fought in the American Revolution and the War of 1812) I doubt it, they would have had a hard time chasing them through the forests up north. They didn't do that good against the Russians at Leningrad (which is sort of like Northern Ontario). be thankful that the people greeting their arrival weren't hostile or intolerant either. What? Jeffrey Amherst sent pox-infected blankets out to the western tribes as "trade gifts"...you mean to tell me that is not wholesale slaughter? He might be one of the original mass murderers. I agree, but what are we going to do about it? You just spent a post calling my people welfare users who are only living at the whim of your people, so I don't see anything redeeming to build on. I do know this is off topic, but that's about it.

What, like the two cars, 2.5 kids, the dog, a home, freedom of choice, freedom to pursue their religion in peace? Boy...I'd sure like to be a tax payer. Oh geez...I am! I don't live on reserve so I do pay taxes, and as a taxpayer, I think the government has screwed up...but i have to rely on other taxpayers to change the government and hold them accountable. Who, the folks at Kaledonia? You mean the taxpayers who are refusing to let their kids play the Six Nations youth baseball team because they are still mad at Six Nations? You mean people who'd use their own kids to strike back at those "non-tax-paying natives". Well, you have me beat. I can't think of anyway of acting lower, so I guess you are right about taxpayers. Well I've managed to screen out Santa and the Tooth Fairy as instigators of anti-Native racism, so you tell me where this flows from? I'm pretty sure neither you or I created it, but we sure like to participate in it, eh Betsy? Heck no....these anti-native attitudes come from all social classes, the rich, the poor etc. The common denominator appears to be the same as this thread. likewise, if you are upset with your tax dollars, why are you blaming Native people? They have nothing to do with how the government spends our money. Talk to your MP, or write your MP and ask him/her to make Natives illegal if it galls you so much. Actually, it's more like opening your house to accomodate the new neighbours who don't have a place, and then the new neighbours take over the downstairs and move you to the second floor, and then more neighbours move in and you get moved to the attic. Then the neighbours wonder who gave you the legal right to live in the attic. I'm sorry Betsy, but if you feel so hard done by with your taxes and all, then why not move away? Didn't your ancestors come here because things weren't that good in the old country? If you truly feel that you are so "oppressed", than do what your ancestors would have done and feel free to move to a country where you aren't taxed as badly. I pay tax here, and I think Canada is a great country. I can travel all over the place and see all this country has to offer...I can choose to live wherever I want, and I don't whine about my taxes, but I do get upset with legislation. This is confusing. Six Nations was granted land, but the other 632 Nations are all on their traditional lands. The 632 First Nations traded a large portion of their traditional lands with the Crown for a number of rights and benefits, but no land was ever given to them, unless by the Creator at the dawn of time. Are you sure you know what you are talking about? Actually, they are owed housing by the agreement stemming from the treaty they singed. Even here the government has not lived up to ther promises as housing is a major need on many First Nations. The taxes are also part of the exchange of land for benefits. Hunh? Each band is auditted annually. Their audits are on INAC's website so that any Canadian with web access can go on and review the financial details of every band in Canada. Didn't you know about this? Are you sure you have a clue as to what you are talking about, or are you making things up as we go along? Who? From my knowledge of Six Nations, they are on a par with all Canadian towns and cities of their size when it comes to average per capita social assistance usage. Some places on the East coast are higher because of lack of employment opportunities, but there isn't much difference. I have to assume that you want to insult Aboriginal people as a whole because you are making accusations without factual knowledge. likewise, if you want to see the per capita comparator, subscribe to either one of the Six Nations newspapers. they have that info. Again, you are incorrect. The land was purchased by the Crown from the Native people, and the Crown made a number of promises and payments (that they've since reneged on again and again, but that's another story) to secure the land without bloodshed. Oh, and the Native folks too. Remember, our most decorated War veteran was Tommy Prince, a native from Manitoba. Tom Longboat (from Six Nations) made Canada renowned with his lond distance running, as did Pauline Johnston (also from Six Nations) with her poetry. Graham Greene was pretty good in "Dances with Wolves". What? Ignore any contributions the Natives made and take all the credit for yourself? Geez, why can't you do likewise for serial killing and mass murder as you do for "building" this country? Yes, but I don't live on your land and call you and all your people shiftless welfare bums, like you do here. Why not move back and improve your land? I'm sure your people would be happy to see you, all educated and everything. Again, have you any clue about Canadian history? There were no Indian Wars here, like in the U.S. The only time Natives against Europeans was when they were involved in European wars, like the Seven years War, or the War of 1812. the Crown prided itself in the fact that they could come to terms civilly with the Natives and had the treaties to prove it. The only people who got beat through war in this country were the French, and they are European!

Flame baiting? I'm beginning to think that flamebaiting is something in the eye of the beholder considering the manner in which you and Argus complain about this thread. In my quote, there is nothing to indicate a racist bent, is there? If I was here blaming serial killing on some inherent trait, THEN we cross the line. But that is not what is occuring. Thanks for reading my mind. August, you have taken the above quote out of context to try to prove your point. You did not include the first sentence I wrote which clarifies this. Even then, what is so terrible about the quote? I have no problem discussing the social ills that have befallen Native people. I do not shirk from the fact that Natives are found at the top of all the bad social indices, and at the bottom of the good ones. All of us here have commented on Jamaican crime like we owned it, so what is so different about serial killing and mass murder? Don't tell me you're in denial too August. Look, I understand how it feels when people talk about the social ills of my race, but I can see farther along and understand that denial does not lead to addressing problems. In this manner, many Aboriginal people are actively working to address our social ills, and I'm happy to see that a great deal of progress has been made. Many more Aboriginal youth are going to school and graduating from post-secondary education. The Jamaican-Canadian community has been working hard for the past few years to overcome "gangsta" attitudes (unlike what our peers say here...oh, and Gwyn Morgan too). Surely if many Canadians can stand up and count themselves in, then why can't the same be true for our Caucasian brothers and sisters. ...and I'll say this again: Serial Killing and mass murder can happen anywhere in the world, and can be committed by anyone of any race, HOWEVER, IN CANADA serial killings and mass murder have been the domain of one subgroup of society. That indicates a social problem. I want to help overcome that problem, as well as not become a victim. See, the above poses a problem for me because you describe a "white" world. Yes, North American society has done a lot of studies on this issue, and then you say that the police , judiciary, correctional officials and pyschologists are all white and dealing with a white problem. August, I can't have this kind of racist tripe on this thread, so please watch what you say, and don't assume that we are all "white". August, I've provided numerous examples of non-caucasian serial killers and mass-murderers as well, but, let me repeat again: I'm talking about the Canadian experience. Not the U.S., Not Asia, Not Europe nor Africa, but CANADA. I have listed Canadian serial killers and mass murderers in another post. I've gone through each one to ensure that I'm not in error -which if I was I'd note-, and lord help me, but I'm not. I agree with the research aspects, but I don't believe much has been done socially. What programs have our provincial governments enacted that bring children out of welfare? none, and yet research shows that a number of serial killers and mass murderers resided in poverty. Instead, many Canadians yell and scream that we coddle the poor and give too much, or they are serial malingerers, all of which is crap and is based on the handful of welfare cases people have some knowledge about. Are we doing anything to find the narcissists at school? No. Are people calling CAS when they see a kid killing small animals? No, but we do for almost anything else. I think we need to do more. Am I, or are you in denial? Which one? It basically comes down to feeling whether or not we feel there is a problem. I think there is, you don't feel that way. That seems to be the crux of the argument. You've gone off-topic again. I don't see the relevance between incarcerated Aboriginal people and serial killers and mass-murderers. What? I'm not trying to help anyone better understand Native people. how can you say that anyway given the ingrained beliefs that we already see on these threads! I couldn't possibly change anyone's minds because most are already set. Just look at the Six Nations thread. Read posts #3 and #4...the one's that attracted me to this site. The ideas and notions in those posts never changed an iota, and in fact they still pop up. listen August, don't get any idea that I'm some Noble Indian here to set the record straight. I've learned a long time ago that people in this country by and large already have preconceived ideas that are unshakeable. I know damn well that the minute my back is turned, that someone makes a comment. If you haven't figured that out yet, then we live in different worlds, but to me, that is reality. Just be thankful we don't have any Jamaicans on this thread. The society that lets the individual know that they are free to do as they please as long as they do not harm others, and that the individual abides by the social norms. That is the perfect society. but between you and I, it's too bad the Indian Act only affects me.

This sounds interesting, and I've seen similar situations myself, but it does not dismiss the type of racisim that the Six Nations' people endured, and continue to endure, at Kaledonia, nor items like Harper's breaking of the Kelowna Accord. Issues like these tend to lend credence to the idea that non-natives dislike you, and this isn't even including the Argus', Geoffrey or Scribblets of this web who also go to lengths to stereotype Aboriginal people. However, none of this has anything to do with serial killing and mass murder in Canada. Let's try to stick to the topic at hand.