Temagami Scourge

For the interest of all, this is an email I received: Shikon akwekon, (Hello to all of you, in Cayuga) This is to let you know that CBC Radio 1 "The Current" will lead off its show on Friday (May 26) with a focus on the issue of racist attitudes among the residents of Caledonia during the conflict over the Six Nations' land reclamation, and on racial-colonial attitudes in the white population of Canada generally:

River: What do you mean when you say this is irrelevant? Can you expand on this? River, the figure is closer to 100%, when our caucasian population is 87%. This is a lopsided trend, and this is the focus of discussion.....why is this seemingly more endemic in our caucasian community? Forgive me, but I don't get what you are driving at in the above paragraph. Could you expand a bit? Yes and No here. Yes, these types of crimes are rare, but they can and do happen, and to be frank, they seem to occur much more lately here in Canada. Mas murder almost appears to be a monthly event in the U.S. now, but why the increase in Canada? Do you think the States might have something to do with it? perhaps as an influence? No, as in there may be something we can do to pre-empt these types of crimes. I don't want to throw my hands in the air and say "can't help it", but rather do something more proactive. Treating all "white" men as serial killers is racial profiling, and that is one of the main points of this thread. Do you think its fair to do that or not? likewise, if you are interested in domestic crimes and gang stuff, start a thread about it, but try to maintain focus on what we are discussing here. Looking forward to hearing back from you.

Betsy: As I was saying earlier, if you and Rue want to discuss the Christian impact on Aboriginal people, then start a thread saying so and don't start a tangent here, please. To be honest, what you are saying is interesting, and i'd be happy to join you in conversation, but we just can't do it here. s'allright?

FTA: I suspect its because I'm a compelling and prolific forum user, and this impresses and exasperates you at the same time, therefore you are drawn here like a fly to....ice cream. You are absolutely right. I stand corrected, although I was just trying to use an example and knew that profiling means much, much more...having been through it myself. Exactly. That is racial profiling. We also have "youth" profiling, which reflects the times the police stop youth because they "know" youth are "likely" up to no good. Although I agree that the "Amish" point was not racial profiling, I do think I made it pretty clear that Morgan was acting like your hypothetical undercover cop searching Jamaicans. I disagree with your assessment that his comments do not come close to the Natural-born killers image. The man said Jamaicans -not some, not just the criminal element, not just the Rasta's of the fellows in montego Bay, but Jamiacans in general, come from a violent and crime-ridden society. To take this one step further...I know Jamaicans' that came to Toronto after WWII, some who came in the 50's, 60's and 70's. They make up a significant population, but if I knew Gwyn morgan and no Jamiacans, then I'd naturally assume that ALL jamaicans are somehow tied to violence...and this is clearly not the case. Morgan was wrong, as simple as that. If he wants, I'll write his speeches for him so he doesn't make the same error. . What? I'm not? funny...I didn't see anyone stopping those same characters from making derisory comments about Native people. I'd gladly stop giving out written bitch-slaps the minute I stop getting racist comments. As a case in point, you've not made any derogatory, anti-native comments, and I've never addressed you in the negative. Would you not agree? I mean, even anti-native stuff appeared on this thread, and this is about Morgan! you'll also see that it wasn't me that took this topic off on a tangent. I've repeatedly tried to discuss Morgan, only to get ambushed about something else. So please ensure that others, and not just me, get a tongue-lashing for their commentary. Shoop would be a good example of someone who needs to be brought to heel. I don't really need the advice, because I don't see myself as the problem child here, but I do intend to be a valuable contributor, so Nya:weh (means "thank you" in mohawk...pronounced phoenetically as Knee-yow-wah, but say it as one word, not three syllables)

Shoop: Chill out and quit your whining, and don't act like you are all perfect...you're responsible for a fair amount of bad behaviour. Just do as Greg says. If I can, then surely someone as "smart" as you has the same ability to change and adapt.

Machina: I have no doubt that europeans brought significant technology here, but as I said, so what? The only point you made is that european technology was superior that the "primitive" technology found here. We know that. Dee-Troy-it! Hey, I hang around Windsor on occasion and get plenty of Detroit stories. Here's a good Windsor joke: What does the "MGM" stand for at the new downtown MGM Grand hotel? Might Get Mugged... I used to live off Eddystone, by the all-night Commisso Bros. bakery, and across Jane at London Green court, overlooking the ravine. That ravine really echoed gunfire, but no one was ever shot. I think people used it for practice, and then ran away.

Warwick: I think it is very small, but the fear of the randomness of the act is what drives me. I mean, look at Lepine. he purposfully killed women. How do I know that myself or my family be a victim because of our race? The whole Caledonia event certainly brought this idea to the fore because, as Betsy pointed out, many of the Caledonians "fit" the serial killer/mass murderer description. This is not to say that Natives or anyone else has the same propensity, but the fact is that none of the minority groups in Canada have committed such an act, so they can be discounted for the time being. Agreed. There are no boundaries for "regular" murder. This is a sad reflection of society, especially family murders....and unfortunately make up the bulk of the murders in Canada.

Actually, I think you are reading a bit much into the post. There have been some anti-Native commentary, but I'm trying to quell any racist comments and just focus on serial killing and mass murder in this country, and the overrepresentation of the caucasian Canadian community in this issue...and nothing more. Rue: I, too, have worked in the court system, and I agree with your insight that genetics and learned behaviour have much to do with criminality. Now, to focus even more, is it possible that a mix of genes and learned behaviour contribute to serial killings and mass murder? What is the thread between Bernardo, Pickton and Olsen? What set them off and not someone else? Do you have any thoughts on that? I hope you don't assume I'm passive-agressive? I'm pretty much all aggressive, and this is not fake B.S. about serial killers. This is a candid discussion that I intend to do my best to prevent from degrading into some racist drivel, and right now you are helping that much Rue. You obviously have a lot to offer, so I would like to see more insight from you...I, for one, appreciate it. maybe some time later I'll start a thread about preceptions in discriminatory treatment, but we've just been through the whole Six Nations ringer and I'd prefer to give it a rest for the time being.

Betsy: For some reason, serial killing and mass murder has proven to be confined to caucasians here in Canada. I know the US stats that that serial killers and mass murderers are usually white males, but on occasion can come in every shape and size, but I'm focussing on Canada. We have different perspectives, a different culture and many other social differences not shared with other countries, so what make serial killing and mass murder so unique here? I'm certain that the times will change in the future, but for the time being, these terrible traits reside in the domain of our caucasian brothers and sisters.

Machination: No, many murders take place in the Aboriginal community. I've had to live through the unfortunate experience of having relations who were either murder victims or murderers...but again, this thread is looking at serial killing and mass murder, which have non-existent Aboriginal representation in Canada, to date. If you want to discuss Aboriginal murders, start a separate thread. It might dovetail with this one if Pickton is being discussed. The focus of this thread is on Canada. Serial killing and mass murder take place all over the world, but here in canada, we have our own unique issues separate from the U.S., Britain etc. Actually, I am interested in debate, and I'm not a petty racist. I also take exception to you viewing me this way, but I realize that your perceptions are your problem, not mine. I'm sorry you feel this way, but if you don't want to participate, then feel free not to do so. other than that, there is some genuine and interesting discussion taking place. You've not made one point about Canada. To reiterate, the focus of this thread is about canada's issues with serial murder and mass killings, not any other country's. If you want to participate, please stay to topic, or go create your own "non-Canadian serial killers and mass murderers discussion" thread. Apart from the inchoate babble at the end of the quoted sentence, I would like to know more of your thoughts on racial profiling and why you disagree with the idea. I was under the impression that many people on this site were supportive of the idea of racial profiling...especially after participating in the Gwyn Morgan discussion.

betsy: Yes, I understand that most serial killers usually kill their own race, but there appear to be many exceptions to that rule, especially in the Pickton case and the John Crawford's killings of Aboriginal women in Saskatchewan. even Ng killed outside his race, but he is American, and we are talking Canadian criminals. likewise, I'm certain that there are serial killers and mass murderers all over the globe, but for this discussion, we are focussing on Canada and Canada's social plight. Serial killers in russia have little to do with it unless there is comparable evidence of a mental nature which is shared by serial killers worldwide. to date, there is no such evidence.

Thanks for the apology Enskat, but you can chill on the inflammatory comments. We are trying to maintain a proper decorum and focuss on the topic at hand. We don't want to go swanning off like in the Six Nations thread. I already told Geoff that if he wants to discuss Native incarceration, than go start a thread on it. TS

Geoff; our Caucasian population is 87% of our total pop, and yet the serial killers and murderers are near 100% Caucasian. To me, this isn't simply a "most of", but a serious social problem I think that mental issues might lay at the crux of the problem. If this is the case, would it not make sense to begin mental testing in public school? Although one might make a case that we should list risk factors and address them (which a lot of conservatives think is B.S.), I think that risk factors while growing up are not true indicators. They might have helped with Clifford Olsen, but certainly not with Bernardo. Bernardo had it easy compared to most Canadians...in his case, and in Carla's too, one could argue that "it was in them" all along, eh? Well, go start an "Indian incarceration" thread and discuss it. The purpose of this thread is to discuss ways in which we can help our caucasian brothers and sisters overcome the scourge of mass murder and serial killing. Having a gun in the house doesn't protect you from the guy who pulls out his rigged semi-auto while you are standing in line for your MacDonalds order. Everyone packing heat means that anyone making the slightest twitch will get shot, and then that person's friends and family will open up on the shooters who mistook him for a felon in the first place. It gets too "OK Corral-ish' for my taste, but thanks for the reply, it is appreciated.

August: to add to my earlier post, I wouldn't include The recent Biker killings nor the multiple-shooting at that Sikh wedding in Vancouver a few years back. In both these cases, murderer and victim all knew each other, and each event was planned. Nor would I include any gang fights for the same reason, but I've yet to hear more more than three people dying at any time. Additionally, I'm not including family murders because they are a completely different animal too. Only murders where the victims and killers didn't know each other, or a public venue blowout, like the Ottawa bus station.

August: Are you certain about those assertions? Yes. I'm referring to post-1950 Canada. (And what do you mean by "Euro-Canadian extraction"?) Caucasians in particular. There are many Turks, Algerians and Somalians who are now European. I should of said pre-1800 Europeans. Sorry for the confusion. BTW, one of the most notorious mass-murderers in Canadian history, Marc Lepine, had an Algerian father. Yep I know, but Algerians are primarily Caucasians. If you want to get semantical, then we can say that 99% of our serail-killers are caucasian, and the other percent are half-Algerian. Can you provide us any insight August? ...and I'm not joking around...I'm serious about this topice sine the Pickton pig farm, and what has been happening to women in the sex trade in Edmonton. and Mayerthorpe, where the Caucasian dude hunted those poor police.

Sahara: My mother-in-law (retired on a fixed income) lost half a beef she purchased less then a month ago. Do you think she'd be interested in a bunch of bread and cheese (mild cheddar, I believe)?

Politika: But you guys are th eones that cry to the government about a new issue every year and demand compensation and the government gives it to you. Residential schools, land claims, and now Caladonia. Go take your people to the US see how better your treated their in Canada becaus eif you pulled that shit their like you did with Caladonia theyd have the national guard in their hauling your ass's out of the way. tut, tut now Laddie....no need to get all uppity! There are actually many unresolved issues between the Crown and the Natives lasting many decades and beyond...these just don't occur overnight! But I understand that you are young and need to do more growing, so I'll give you a decent "You're Welcome" for the thanks I know you'll want to give for me correcting you. Keep up the good work lad! TS

Politika: "Look at this here your saying me, geoffry and argus are all racist talking about indians in the Caladnoia thread and here you go about the white population. Hypocryte." Come now lad. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what we can do to overcome serial killing and mass murder, and nothing else. I'm not trying to be P.C., nor am I charging any particular group with being lazy or criminals, like Argus and Geoff do regularly. But you must admit. ALL of our serial killers and mass murderers are Euro-Canadian. We can't keep denying racial profiling -which I happen to agree with Argus and Geoffrey and others, so let's take the bull by the horns and discuss this issue, and not cast aspersions. Peace, little brother.

I, for one, can't understand what would drive an outwardly normal Euro-Canadian into a fiendish mass murderer? In Canada, Euro-Canadians have enjoyed the bounty of this great Nation. They have had the fortune of creating and keeping jobs amongst themselves, and for years had the benefit of exclusive policies that ensured their place at the top of the food chain. Maybe that is the problem? Is it possible that national issues like what happened to the Japanese-Canadians in the second War, what happened to Chinese-Canadians with the head tax, and what has occured with Native Canadians at residential schools, and the efforts to make up for these black gashes on Canadian history has created an underclass of people that -for reasons unbeknownst to us- seek to stalk and kill, or simply explode in anger and kill anyone within range? Or is that too simplistic an argument, and quite possibly other factors are involved. For instance, why did Mayerthorpe occur? What would make a crazed Euro-Canadian want to harm Mounties? Why didn't the Mounties simply jail the man since he had a long record of mayhem?

Like many people here, I firmly believe that racial profiling is required in a number of cases. Specifically in instances of mass murder and serial killing. Although only 87% of Canada's population is of Euro-Canadian extraction, they make up 100% of Canada's serial killers and mass murderers. We must ask ourselves: What can we do to assist our Euro-Canadian brethren overcome this insidious desire to stalk and murder, or just blow up one day and kill a bunch of people at a workplace, or other public venue? How can the non-Euro-Canadian population help our brothers and sisters? How can we protect ourselves from wanton acts of slaughter? Additionally, do not think for a minute that this thread is here to bash our Euro-Canadian population. They have done a number of wonderful things that have made Canada great, and although they may be prone to serial killing and mass murder, we can't let the actions of a few represent the abilities of the many. Does anyone have any thoughts on this grave matter?

gost: you are calling Bull? Well, if you are doing that, then I feel that I have to declare "Shenanigans"as per South Park. where's my broom....

sahara: "Who will compensate my family?" geez....is money all you think about? The first time the slightest thing goes wrong and its "where is my money"? Did you send in a demand for cash back in August of 2004? My power was out for a full week. Lost my food and everything. .....and the reason was that someone in the States didn't follow proper procedure. The Sun says power is back on in Kaledonia, so yours should be on soon. ...and watchout for terrorists. I understand they were acting poorly with the police on monday, as evidenced by this from today's Sun: "Haldimand County OPP Const. Paula Wright confirmed police arrested one man Monday night for breach of peace. The man, who was protesting with the townspeople, was later released. Police are also investigating incidents of looting on the Douglas Creek estates, Wright said. Several police officers received minor injuries from residents who volleyed projectiles like rocks, eggs, fireworks and a hockey stick during Monday's tense face-off, Wright said. Townspeople were livid that OPP formed lines facing only their camp and tempers ignited when police shone two floodlights on the residents while the natives were unsupervised. "Projectiles were being thrown at the officers so it was important for the officers to see what was going on," Wright said, insisting the OPP acted professionally. "

Scrib: Hey...how come you didn't put up other excerpts from the Sun like this one: "Haldimand County OPP Const. Paula Wright confirmed police arrested one man Monday night for breach of peace. The man, who was protesting with the townspeople, was later released. Police are also investigating incidents of looting on the Douglas Creek estates, Wright said. Several police officers received minor injuries from residents who volleyed projectiles like rocks, eggs, fireworks and a hockey stick during Monday's tense face-off, Wright said. Townspeople were livid that OPP formed lines facing only their camp and tempers ignited when police shone two floodlights on the residents while the natives were unsupervised. "Projectiles were being thrown at the officers so it was important for the officers to see what was going on," Wright said, insisting the OPP acted professionally." Wow...those law-abiding townspeople! What role models for Canadians everywhere! and they use excuses just like everyone else!

Scrib: You want, calm, premier? Show us there is one law for everyone -- native and non-native -- that judges people based not on who they are, but on how they act. The Indian Act is Federal, not provincial law. McGuinty can't do anything about it, but feel free to contact your MP and ask about changing it. Funny thing...I didn't see any Kaledonians get arrested when they punched the Natives or police, or destroyed property? Wouldn't that indicate that we are operating under the same law?

River: If treaties are binding under Canadian law then the duly elected Canadian gov't can change the law and revoke these treaties without the consent of native groups. However, if treaties are agreements between 'nations' then there are definitely not legally binding and can and should be re-written to meet the needs of people today. Ok...let me spell it out for you one more time. A. Canada made treaties with the Aboriginal nations already here. B. Canada then took parts of the Treaties (the benefits) and ensconced them into the Indian Act, and then the Constitution later on. C. The treaties exist as agreements, but the terms exist as Canadian law. hence, your government has given itself the right to amend the terms of the treaties under their own laws without our approval at any point. and yet this makes you upset because they don't make the amendments you want to see, therefore: D. Complain to the Federal government, and stop blaming the Indians. We can't do much more than blow in the wind.