betsy

Are you kidding me??? Some kids start hitting almost as soon as they're able to swing their arm. Not all kids do this, but certainly there are many kids who simply lash out when annoyed or frustrated. And if your argument is simply that it's "learned behaviour", then who taught the first caveman to swing a club??? Violence is an inherent part of our nature that must be dealt with rather than denied. This extends to kids, else the problem of schoolyard scraps would not be anywhere near its current scope. Some kids can be spoken to with soft words, and will take those words to heart. Some kids need an attention-grabber, and a slap on the hand is usually more than enough for a small child. Either way, my argument, which was echoed a bit later in the thread, was that people need to be aware that actions have consequences. Plain and simple. If a kid is constantly allowed to get away with rotten behaviour, then his/her "learned behaviour" will simply be that he/she can get whatever he/she wants, through whatever means necessary, without any negative consequence whatsoever. An ex-neighbour of mine is a great example of this. Three male kids who could do no wrong. No matter whether it was another child or an adult who aproached the parents of these 3 hellions, the parents would always simply deny that the boys had done anything, and believe me, they did plenty. It was unbelievable. You could literally watch the kids throw a rock through a window, go immediately to their parents and tell them about it, and teh parents would just stand there and say "No, no, no. There's no way he did that". Of course, when asked, the kid would deny it with a sweet smile at mom and dad. I recall one incident stole a brand new bike from another neighbour's kid. The second kid's dad went to talk to the offender's parents' The little brat told his folks that "She gave it (the bike) to me". They stood there and refused to give back the bike because "There you go, your daughter gave her bike to my son, so you can't have it back". Things like this happened on a regular basis. I had both a snowmobile and a 10-speed bike wrecked by the eldest boy. Both times he told his folks that I said he could use the item in question. Both times the "usage", and breakage, happened while I was away for a couple days. Great way to teach your kids about values and consequences. One of the brats is now doing time for murder. Both the others had criminal records by the time they were 18. All three had at least 1 charge for some sort of violent offence. All three had been kicked out of school by age 16 for various incidents of mischief, fighting, or worse. Oh I absolutely agree with you. A parade pf children had come and gone through my daycare...and there were some that you could swear were spawns of the devil. Right now I have a two and half year old whose face looks so much like a cherub....but believe me, his parents are going crazy trying to figure him out. He just wants to hurt other children. Period. From purposefully running them over with any toys on wheels, shoving and grabbing. He slyly looks over to me to see if I'm watching him. Several times I saw him on the verge of doing something but that he happened to see that I was observing....he just stopped in mid-track of what he was about to do (grabbing)...then turned the sweetest innocent smile on me. The parents are gentle, now-generation types of parents who just talked so kindly and softly to him. One time, my three-year old told the parents boldly "He was bad. He hit me. Next time he hits me again, I'll hit him back." The poor mom just said..."oh but you're older than him. If you hit him, he'll only learn that hitting is okay." Wow! I just kept my mouth shut. Btw, the terrible-two's period I've notice go by like a jekyll and hyde syndrome. A period of goodness followed by a period of rottenness...and so on.

Interesting post, betsy. I'll take this one quote. I don't see any real difference between "bribery" as you call it and the threat of being hit, actually being hit, being sent to one's room or getting something good for dessert. I don't think there is any doubt that a parent and a friend are two very different relationships. But I don't see why a parent has to be an authoritarian or "tough", even with a young child. Ultimately, it is all the constraints of the outside world (including dealing with friends) that a child will have to face. More importantly, the child has the power to change those constraints. Life is not a one way street. I think children should be free to choose as much as they can as soon as they can, as long as the consequences of the choices are clear to them. Admittedly, this depends enormously on the child's personality and preferences. I have often felt that the single most important thing in raising children is listening to them. Choices. As long as the consequences are clear to them. A 4 year old chosed not to wear a winter coat in the middle of winter. "No Junior, please wear your coat. It's freezing out there. If you don't, you'll get sick. You'll end up with pneumonia. You could die." Gee, it's a rare 4 year old who'd even care. Maybe you'll get a response of "what's pneumonia, daddy?" But in the end, after all the lenghty explanation of what pneumonia is, all you'll hear is "I don't have to." So clearly, the consequences are made known to him. And he still insists. Now what? It's good to have choices. Choices such as, "Junior, you want Cereals or pop tarts?" But clearly, there is a limit where-in children are given that choice. BTW, there is nothing wrong in being an "authoritarian." We live in a society where there is authority. The sooner children recognize that there are rules in life to follow, the better it is for the child.

I support the parents' rights to use spanking should they want to. But I do not agree that anyone other than the parent or legal guardian should. As a careprovider, I had learned different ways to be more effective and I see where errors are. Here are common mistakes: The one-two-three method. Parents say: Okay Junior, stop swinging the cat....I say stop it. One.....two.... (and then Junior obeys). Good boy Junior. This method of discipline becomes a game to a very young child. Threatening a consequence you know you cannot keep. "If you don't stop that, I'll go home and leave you here with your babysitter!" Negotiations. To me that means a form of bribery. Anyway how do you negotiate with a three year old? To me the kind of negotiation will be: If you don't do as you're told, you'll find yourself sitting in one place for a very long time. Time-out method done wrong. When I put a child to do time out, I like him to feel bored and miserable sitting all by himself. That's the whole point. Oh, they try to engage me in conversations as a form of entertainment while they sit....but I don't bite into it. Instead, I say: "sorry, I don't feel like talking. Besides you're in a time-out. You're supposed to be thinking why you are in a time-out." Consistentency. Once you become inconsistent with your methods, you lose credibility and you're back to square one. Fairness. You want them to feel a sense of justice....and being fair makes them know and understand that you are not singling anyone. Punishment fits the crime and age.

I like Harper's plan of giving the Auditor General more power. It was because of lack of power that she was not able to get to the bottom of the Options Canada thing when it was reported. She must have a formidable team....that when they swoop down to do their audit, no stone is left unturned. Heads of departments must be held accountable, along with any perpetrators, for they should know....and make it a point to know what is going on in their departments. Anyone who is being investigated must step aside until the investigation is concluded.

And a big waste of taxpayers money! I say if they can't give straightforward non-biased journalism...then they should finance their own station. I don't think it fair that we finance Liberal commercials.

The promo for the ConservaTiVe news that just ran started with a soundbite of Harper saying something ambiguous like "choose good over evil" and then Lloyd Robertson voicing over something like "The Conservatives push to bring freedom to the Maritimes." There was no other mention of any other political party. Go Big Blue!! I can't believe the left is complaining about CTV being pro-right wing. The left need look no further than CBC and the Globe and Mail, two of the most leftist anti-CPC outlets in this country. And I shouldn't forget the Toronto Sun, what with Sheila Copps writing her "daddy dearest" letters about the Martin Liberals and her seemingly unabashedly pro-NDP views. If CTV is as unabashedly pro-CPC as CBC and the Globe and Mail are, we might actually has some biased journalism in Canada...go CTV go!!! Even the CBC sounded pro-Conservative last Friday! But it was because they had no control over it. They were interviewing people on the 6 oclock news segment (radio) and asking who they'd vote for. CBC was having a hard time finding pro-Liberal. Out of all those people, only one was voting for the Liberal. I think M Duffy is finding it hard to locate any pro-Liberals among the media too? Either they are very much against that party....or are choosing to remain quiet and distance themselves.

According to M Duffy, the Liberals will be releasing something, which they (Liberals) say could turn the tide. It's supposed to happen tomorrow. Btw, journalist gave his analysis (based on what he'd been hearing from people), that some "silent" things are secretly hurting Paul Martin. It's family values. Then he cited the recent swing club ruling, polygamy issue, etc., as examples....and said: these are not our values.

I understand the concern about violence....but I think the no-spanking advocates are really looking in the wrong direction and I can only question what the real motivation is. If my aim is to eliminate physical violence, I would start by throwing that television out into the garbage....along with those video games. Right now, every household has two or more tv....and every child has a form of two or more types of video games. So far I have not heard this endorsement or demand for a ban on these products that had invaded every homes....and had been slowly disensitizing our children. Reality Shows that demeans and verbally abuse participants, TV shows with characters the epitome of rudeness are being hailed and more popular than ever. I do not wish for any ban. I'm just making a point.

I'd really liek to see the evidence that shows kids who aren't spanked are more likely to commit crimes. I'd be far more willing to bet that kids who get hit by their parents are more likely to grow up to see physical violence as an acceptable solution to their problems. Gee who can really say? All I can say is spanking had been acceptable for ages...and the days of my parents and grandparents had produced a population of mostly upright and responsible citizens. I had been spanked in my childhood...most friends or acquaintances in my generation had admit having been spanked....but we all seem to bel okay. It's just been in recent years that this almost zero tolerance to spanking had come into effect. And yet amazingly....this coincides with the growing numbers of bullying - an aggression related to violence...or threat of violence. Perhaps we are giving the wrong signals to children. One of my steadfast rules for kids in my daycare was "NO HITTING." But due to the rise of bullying incidents in schools....my school kids whine to me and express frustrations over how teachers seem to be indifferent to bullying incidents...and one example of indifference was witnessed by one of my parents, I decided to change my rule. Now I say : DON'T HIT FIRST. Then I explain that if no one will hit first, there wouldn't be any hitting at all. I'm all for children learning how to stand up for themselves. I do not wish to "tie up my childrens' hands" by a rule that forbids them to defend themselves. So back to the idea of spanking generating more violence....maybe we should seriously re-think that.

Also, Ontarians are much more angry with Dalton McGuinty, for outright lying through his entire campaign. They should make another ad showing the big fat liars. McGuinty is so recent....that should make a lot of blood boil!

Well I don't know how you can say that "there is no daycare to choose." Harper's plan do not have to create more daycare facilities....since there'll be lots of other options and open spaces from other areas...which will free spaces in the daycare facilities that we now have.

I'll see if Mike Duffy mentions anything about it.

Sometime in the early evening (or late afternoon?)...they showed him at different places of campaign (North Bay and Monteal).

I watched CPAC...I'm not sure when Martin's campaigning in Laval took place...I assume sometime today. One reporter asked him about the incident involving a Liberal candidate somewhere in Quebec (I didn't get the name)...and a volunteer (student), who was promised she'd get paid. Martin's face became tensed and he said " we have rules and everyone will follow the rules."...or something along that line. I don't really know what the allegation was about...if there's a regulation against paying volunteers. This might be another scandal waiting to explode. Did anybody hear something happening in Quebec?

Eureka, you must have overlooked this one. Can you please explain further what you mean?

With competition, I'm sure daycare prices will be competitive! If public-funded agencies and daycares will still insist on charging double the amount being charged by private competitions....that's their choice. BTW, the "revolving doors" of staff are happening in the public daycares now. These staff are most likely paid higher than that of their counterparts from the private sector plus with all the benefits...and yet they do not stay. One reason is said to be due to burn out. And the amount of bureacracy.

Yes, I can just imagine the regulation. But about standards....It is highly questionable though if they can at least maintain the current standards we now have. It is the question of RENUMERATION that I, as a taxpayer, am most concerned about. Like I said, sometime in 2004 before the election, Child experts were on the news repeatedly, whining about the big problems the public daycares have in keeping their staff. They were calling for a bigger budget to raise the salaries of the staff to keep them from leaving. Keep in mind that these problems are happening already....when the National Childcare is not even in place yet. They're already talking salary raise. The expenses will be colossal.....far, far greater than the gun registry! I can almost foresee that this boondagle-about-to-happen will cost far more than the Tory's whole platform! My question is: How will the Liberals ensure that they keep to their budget...and at the same time, maintain the standard?

Just watched Question Period on CTV...and they analyzed those ads (guy from Globe and Mail and Craig). They compared the Liberal's Mike Harris ad...and dismissed it as ineffective. They pointed out that hardly anyone remembers Mike Harris....and also pointed out that a number of Canadians did like Mike Harris. Both marvelled at the brilliance of new Tory ad. It negated all the negative ads of the Liberals.

With Harper's plan, the really needy single mom/dad will have the spaces in a public-funded daycare....since the others who can afford will most likely go and choose the kind of daycares they want. Harper's plan will open up this spots. And if your single mom happens to get employed by a big company that have its own daycare....there you go....I bet they'll have daycare hours tailor-made for their employees needs. Btw, why begrudge families who can afford if they do get a break from Harper's plan? Most of these people who "can afford" had footed the bills to all the social programs. But then again, it all boils down to parents having the right to decide for their own children. Most parents would want their child's early childhood learning to include learning of their own family values...and not the values dictated by a government.

Can you please explain further? I don't understand what you mean by this response.

How will the Liberal government ensure that there won't be a fast turn over of staff? Eureka, I'd also like to hear your input on this. Please answer.

Eureka, I'd really like to hear your opinion on this. Please answer.

As a childcare provider, I sense a certain wariness among parents in disciplining their children. Society had slowly turned that everyone can interfere how a parent deals with her child. Let me just make it clear that as a care-provider, corporal punishment is not acceptable in my daycare. I believe that only a parent can use it as a form of discipline. Here's an example. A 4 year old child was being picked up by her mom. The mom was sitting on her heels as she puts the shoes on her child who was sitting on the steps, so she's eye-level with her. The child started becoming difficult and the mother tried to cajole her to listen. The child suddenly slapped her mother soundly on the cheek. The mother said, "Please don't hit me. It hurts." The child responded by doing exactly the same thing. Thhe mother repeated "Please don't hit me. It hurts." The child hit her again. All this time, my other children were witnessing this display. The next day, it was the father who picked up the child. She was the last one in my daycare that time. She started being difficult....and she hit her dad. The dad said, "Hey, no hitting." I notice that he's conscious of my presence, and holding back. FInally I said...."Well Paul, you're the dad. Don't worry about me" Then I went out of the house and left them. The girl was crying but behaved when they came out. I think Dad spanked her. Was I wrong? Did I do the right thing?

Yes I definitely agree. And this put the vulnerable and the helpless at risk of being intentionally murdered. Though I do sympathize with people who carry the burden to care for those with overwhelming disabilities....how do you distinguish if "euthinicia" was done to ease the suffering not of the one who is ill or disabled....but of the one who is doing the caring? Just think of the lurking fear of getting snuffed in people with disabilities...and the infirmed old people.... Once we open that gate....anything can easily follow.

Or how much they had stolen so far. That's why we really do need to review and audit everything they did. Including Childcare.