betsy

I only have a very vague idea how things are done, so I'll just read your replies.

Oliver Craig aired an advice to Harper, that he should govern like he has the majority. Keep his focus on his platform and stick to his principles and not to compromise his policy. He further criticised that Martin compromised everything. Do you agree with Craig? Is it wise to rule like as if he has the majority?

It is fighting for gay rights, right? Most Gay groups are fighting for gay rights, right? Hence it is called Gay Rights Movement! Not that there's anything wrong with having a Movement fighting for rights. Feminists do! But do these Movements really reflect the desire of the majority of population they're supposed to be representing? The community may agree and disagree on varying issues. I know that I do not agree with some of the radical Feminists' contentions....I tend to agree more with another women's group called REAL Women. That's why I made an example of the group of homosexuals who took out a whole page ad supporting to preserve the traditional meaning of marriage. There are homosexuals who have conservative values!

"26/01/2006 "Apparently Iran, which President Bush has deemed part of the 'Axis of Evil,' is a suitable partner when it comes to discriminating against gay people." — Matt Foreman, executive director, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force today denounced the United States' vote against two gay rights organizations' applications to join the United Nations Economic and Social Council. The United States joined the repressive, anti-gay regimes of Iran, Zimbabwe, China, Cameroon and others in voting against even granting a hearing to the application of the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA) and the Danish Association of Gays and Lesbians (Landsforeningen for Bosser og Lesbiske " http://www.ilga-europe.org/europe/guide/co..._united_nations For a "small fringe group that may or may not even exist anymore", this one not only boast an umbrella....but still very much moving in the higher circles.

"ILGA-Europe is the European Region of the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA) . It is a non-governmental umbrella organisation which represents its members, principally organisations of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender persons, at the European level. Its membership consists of some 200 organisations from across Europe. ILGA-Europe enjoys participative status at the Council of Europe and receives financial support from the European Community. It is a member of the Platform of European Social NGOs. ILGA-Europe was established as a separate region of the ILGA in 1996. ILGA itself was founded in 1978. It has an office in Brussels, and seven staff members." This information was taken from ILGA Europe website.

I agree with you on this. Majority of gay members did not know anything about NAMBLA and the other pedophile groups that joined the Movement. They were unaware that their officers had made a pact with the devil on that one. I am also sure that if you poll the gay community right now, majority of them would rather just want to be left in peace, not wishing to get dragged along by a movement that probably do not actually represent them in some of its most major fight for what they perceive as "rights." A small group of homosexuals had taken out a whole page ad supporting the preservation of the traditional meaning of marriage. A lot of homosexuals must be like me. I cannot identify with the radical Feminist Movement that purports to speak for me. They do not represent me. The gay community must speak out! Not as one through the lobbying EGALE. But as true individuals.

I agree with the distinction you are making between paedophiles and sexual predators that take advantage of vulnerable teens. However, I think you have to include the legions of 'johns' that target teenage prostitutes in that group. I don't think you can say that a teenage girl prostitute is any less a victim. I am also fairly certain that the number of heterosexual johns is larger than the number of homosexual predators that you describe. In relation to their respective compositions in society, I'd say probably not. I do, however, think that some people are taking this down the extreme and encouraging persecution of gay people based on the fact that a higher percentage of them commit sex crimes. Thats not fair. I'll give you another example. I don't think we should immediately lock up all indians, even though they have a considerably higher chance of committing a crime than other groups. The facts do seem to present themselves, and I'd be willing to agree that homosexuals make up a disproportionally higher amount of sex offenders. However, we can't base any 'programs' or justice on this, as we are a long way from claiming that all homosexuals would have this interest, as I'm sure most do not. I can see this being exploited by the extremist right-wing fanatics. However, I hope we are not confusing legitimate questions of concern, and suspicions and doubts borne out of these facts/circumstances: 1. ILGA's previous history with NAMBLA and what seems to be the fact that ILGA's disassociation from NAMBLA was more out of saving its own image, thus just a political strategy. 2. NAMBLA's assertion that they are a part of the gay community, and that Man-Boy love is actually a part of the gay culture. 3. ILGA seems to echo NAMBLA's platform regarding age of consent, and its goal to lower the age of consent. 4. EGALE is making swift radical changes in Canada, taking advantage of a flip-flopping Liberal government, who in a rush to promote itself as the "protector of human rights", had rushed into a decision without closely and extensively analyzing the ramification this ruling may have. We already see some signs of "testing" from other groups, and the ink isn't even dry yet on this ruling, so to speak. As I said over and over again, the Gay Rights Movement will always be dogged by the spectre of NAMBLA. There is suspicion among us.....and that is what the movement has to try to eliminate. Like an alcoholic, the Movement has come to admit that yes, they do have a problem, before they can begin to correct that problem. The movement cannot eliminate the cloud of suspicions by crying "FOUL!" and "Bigots!" everytime this concern is brought up....and it will always crop up. They cannot slap the gag law everytime someone questions the motive based on a history of not too long ago. THAT results in more negativity...and only strengthens the suspicions. Gaps are bridged through dialogue. Two-way street dialogue.

Corrections on this one. I was reading an old ILGA article. Current ILGA Europe does not seem to include this group.

The following was taken from EGALE's website. "The Human Rights of Trans People CALL FOR STORIES Not all Canadians now have clear and visible human rights protection. Trans-identified people are still invisible in human rights legislation everywhere in Canada except the Northwest Territories. Trans people do have protection under the grounds of ‘sex’ and ‘disability,’ but the protection is unclear and invisible. Trans people shouldn’t have to fit themselves into grounds designed for other groups. It’s time for governments across Canada to treat trans people with the same dignity and respect as other minorities, starting with the federal government and its Canadian Human Rights Act (CHRA). Egale has launched its Trans Protection Campaign to work for passage of legislation to amend the CHRA to explicitly include trans people. This will send a message to Canadians that trans people are worthy of equal consideration and respect, and will make clear to everyone that we are indeed protected. Egale is raising awareness of this issue with Members of Parliament (MPs), as we expect a new private members bill to be introduced in this session of Parliament. There is much work to be done and WE NEED YOUR HELP!! We have the legal, moral and political arguments we need to convince MPs to protect trans people. But we need to put a human face on this issue. That’s why we need your stories. We want to hear about your life. We need to show there’s a real need for explicit protection against discrimination. That means we need not only need stories about things like losing a job or an apartment, but also stories to highlight the sense of exclusion or lack of consideration when you look at the law and don’t see yourself reflected in it. As one trans person told us, “I simply cannot point to a public recognition and acceptance of my life and value as a person.” Telling your story is easy. All you have to do is provide answers to the questions below or write it up freeform, and send it to Egale at [email protected]." ----------------------------------------------- Part of their questionaire: 2. Trans Identity. I identify as (check all that apply): transsexual transgender intersex gender queer cross-dresser man woman other (please specify) ________________ Can someone please explain the difference between the different types of Trans? I never knew there's so many...all I know is transvestite...and it's not even on the list! I'm just seriously curious.

Except on this topic, which unfortunately touched on NAMBLA, it is a relevant fact.

Btw, I noticed on EGALE's site that they are also standing for Bisexuals. Does this mean that Marriage will mean a union between three or more of whatever gender? Does this mean that EGALE will fight for this union's rights to adopt children to be raised in this type of family environment? ILGA (Europe Chapter) is standing for Sado-Masochists. Does this mean that eventually, they will have the same right to marry and adopt children to be raised in that kind of environment? What next???? I mean....pedophiles can't be that far behind in the line-up, can it?

Do you agree NAMBLA was a member of ILGA? Do you agree ILGA had a consultative status in the UN? Do you agree ILGA's consultative status was threatened by CLINTON? Do you admit that EGALE is lobbying to have the age of consent lowered? Do you agree that NAMBLA's damning statement and insistence that Man-Boy love is part of the gay culture, that it took Clinton's threat for ILGA to respond that points to a political move as the real reason behind ILGA's disavowing NAMBLA, compounded by the research findings in the Church scandal are reasons why people are doubtful and suspicious? I am not being dishonest with my posts. Nor am I being hypocritical. EGALE had been making swift radical changes in Canada that of course leaves people reeling, especially when one of those changes, which is highly important and meaningful to a group, had not gone through the normal process in Parliament. And it is destructive to try to stifle one's voice of concern or legitimate questions by automatically calling them bigots. It only helps widen the gap.

I don't think you've followed the thread from the beginning. I've repeated several times that NOT ALL GAYS are pedophiles. I've even VOLUNTEERED THE INFORMATION (although I did not have to)...that majority of the gay members did NOT know about NAMBLA and other pedophile groups being members of ILGA. I repeat: we are only prolonging arguing about NAMBLA and ILGA because some people keep wanting to deny that an association had exist between the two. The more you deny it, the more I am compelled to prove it! Because by denying it, you are saying history is wrong....and that I am only making it up! Like I said, no matter how hard you guys try to sweep NAMBLA under the rug....people like me who have doubts and questions will always bring it up! It's inevitable! Because NAMBLA is strongly part of the problem why people question ILGA's motive! Do not hide behind the word "bigotry." I consider myself as close to the center Right. I believe that Gays ought to have protection and the same legal benefits that we all enjoy! Automatically calling anyone who has a legitimate concern or a question a bigot only incite! And infuriate! You're like children who runs tattling to the teacher at the slightest percieved hint of slight! Why do you think your group is the only one that deserves to be heard? This thread is about PEDOPHILES getting through the door....thanks to the Gay Rights Movement. Pedophiles are trying to get a piggy-back ride through the Gay Rights Movement. Face it. ILGA's association with NAMBLA had tarnished the Gay Rights Movement in a very bad way. It did not help matters at all when NAMBLA insists that Man-Boy love is part of gay culture! The ghost of NAMBLA will always dog the movement....that's why I said, that is what the movement has to overcome! You know the problem you're facing. Why don't you guys figure out a way to fix that? Now, let's get constructive.

Someone mentioned the Liberal Party is in debt by 1.9 mil. Warren Kinsella said that the decimal point on that figure is off a bit. He figures they're in debt by at least 20 mil. There is a long list of names for leadership possibles, but Kinsella said you'll see that list shrink fast when they realize the burden of this debt. They need to raise money to pay that....and to finance the next election campaign. The new Accountability act will not help matters when it comes to donations. Strange, that while listening I sort of wondered if this was the reason behind the "win-at-all-cost" desperation of the Liberals. One of the names on the list publicly announced on Mike Duffy that definitely he is not running. I didn't get his name though.

Oh you never know....she might be deadly. I was talking to a "now-generation" professional lady (you know, yuppie type) and after we've both agreed that Belinda does not seem to have much under her belt except dad's billions, the lady waffled in the end and said: "well...it will be nice to have a strong woman sitting in power, you know."

No, we shouldn't recognize Hamas until we are sure that they renounced terrorism. Giving foreign aid that may be used for terrorism will in a way, make us accomplice of the act...especially when we know what Hamas stands for.

This topic had drawn heavy criticism for several posters in this forum had questioned how come NAMBLA is being associated with the Gay Rights Movement. The answer is quite simple. NAMBLA and ILGA had a shared a page in history not that too long ago. A history that resulted in a big controversy that saw then US President Clinton issuing a threat to revoke ILGA’s consultative status in the UN unless ILGA rejected the membership of NAMBLA and other pedophile groups. It is almost impossible for ILGA to ward off any opposition bringing up NAMBLA. It may be just poor judgement on ILGA’s part to have allowed such a group to join its rank….but it is damaging nevertheless for these reasons: NAMBLA’s platform echoes that of ILGA. “2) The North American Man/Boy Love Association calls for the abolition of age-of-consent and all other laws which prevent men and boys from freely enjoying their bodies. (2) We call for the release of all men and boys imprisoned by such laws." [8] This policy was still in NAMBLA's "official position papers" in 1996. ILGA had passed a resolution in 1985 which stated that "young people have the right to sexual and social self-determination and that age of consent laws often operate to oppress and not to protect." ILGA may have complied and rejected NAMBLA, “Gregory King of the Human Rights Campaign later said that "NAMBLA is not a gay organization ... They are not part of our community and we thoroughly reject their efforts to insinuate that pedophilia is an issue related to gay and lesbian civil rights." However, that rejecting statement was challenged by NAMBLA. “NAMBLA responded by claiming that "man/boy love is by definition homosexual," that "man/boy lovers are part of the gay movement and central to gay history and culture," and that "homosexuals denying that it is 'not gay' to be attracted to adolescent boys are just as ludicrous as heterosexuals saying it's 'not heterosexual' to be attracted to adolescent girls."[22 To this date the Gay Rights Movement disavows any connections with NAMBLA, just as they did in that past: “Today almost all gay rights groups disavow any ties to NAMBLA, voice disapproval of its objectives, and attempt to prevent NAMBLA from having a role in gay and lesbian rights events.” However, the shadow of doubt and suspicion that continues to follow the Gay Rights Movement was, ironically, made by the statement of its lobbyist: “One such statement was made by gay rights lobbyist Steve Endean. Endean, who opposed NAMBLA, said: "What NAMBLA is doing is tearing apart the movement. If you attach it [the man/boy love issue] to gay rights, gay rights will never happen." Gay author and activist Edmund White made a similar statement in his book States of Desire: "That's the politics of self-indulgence. Our movement cannot survive the man-boy issue. It's not a question of who's right, it's a matter of political naivete." That statement points to a political move as the reason behind the rejection of NAMBLA. This is what the Gay Rights Movement has to overcome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA#The_ILGA_controversy

I suppose if 20 years ago isn't "not so very long ago." Incidentally, the NYC police department, a number of investment banks, and Irish groups march in the NY Pride Parade too. So homosexuality is clearly an effort to advance police who are Irish investment bankers too. The connection is undeniable! That's not what the victims groups say. In fact, a majority of the victims of abuse were little girls or women at the time, and victims groups have been quite upset that the Church and right wingers like yourself have ignored and downplayed their suffering in order to advance an anti-gay agenda. See for yourself: http://www.snapnetwork.org/female_victims/..._as_victims.htm http://www.snapnetwork.org/female_victims/...ell_stories.htm But no one is saying that no sexual molestations were committed by heterosexual priests. There were pedophiles who molested girls too. But the study by the Church points to the overwhelming percentage of abuse on boys, perpetrated by priests....not nuns.

Someone is already "testing the waters" here. All it takes is a winning precedent in court and boom!...suddenly it's okay to have sex with kids under 14! It's so easy to corrupt and seduce children that age...hormones are kicking off and curiousity for sensuality and sex are raging!

"And there is no wiggle room here. EGALE points directly at the “close-in-age” exception in Canadian law. That would be the infamous section 150, Part V of our Criminal Code: “in respect of a complainant who is twelve years of age or more but under the age of fourteen years, it is not a defence that the complainant consented… unless the accused (a) is twelve years of age or more but under the age of sixteen years; ( is less than two years older than the complainant....” EGALE says it flat out:"Whatever the age of consent is, the Government may wish to consider increasing the window for the “close-in-age” exception.” In other words, worry less and less about that darn age gap. And we ain’t talking Demi Moore/Ashton Kutcher here. Get offa that! So-called right-wing bias is a buffer, it turns out, between kids and EGALE’s liberal Namblarism. If any kid needs to be protected from older associates, by age gap limits, surely it would be the kid who would be the most ashamed or afraid to complain to the police in the first place. Just two weeks or so ago, Joel Johannesen posted one of his best biting blogs on all this (see September 16; partially repeated on Wednesday, 28 Sept.). With reference to US magazine editor, Tim McDarrah, busted for trying to pick up a 13 year-old girl on the Internet for sex, Joel reminded us of Canada’s “progressive” tolerance of sexual contact with those younger than 14. As he said: “[A]t the rate of “progress” we’re making in Canada under the liberal-left, the age of consent might well keep getting lower and lower.” Indeed, we would be providing the world with a model defense to consent in the growing industry of pedophile-tourism. " This is really disturbing for me. We need to cement something so that there won't be any loopholes that will leave the young so unprotected. I worry that laws can be twisted and maneuvered around by crafty lawyers.

I have not insulted you in any way. If you think that pointing out that you are wrong is a form of insult, then you ought to understand that this is a forum. Opposing views are most likely to prove each other wrong. There were a lot of other posts that came from others who opposed my views. Some would be considered as personal insults....but I understand that sometimes, highly controversial topics such as this can get the better of even some educated ladies and gentlemen. They were just said in the heat of the moment and should not be taken personally. However, you have embarked on a personal attack against me. Even after my suggestion that we should take a break from one another. You are persistently attacking me with my every posts that no longer directly address you. I can take the heat, mind you....obviously, you cannot. I'd like to remind you of the Rules and Guidelines in this forum. I have explained that this is not painting all gays with one brush. I even volunteered the information that majority of the gay members have no knowledge about NAMBLA or any pedophile groups being members under the same association...that only the high level officials knew of it until the scandal broke out. If it is your purpose to goad me into turning this forum into trash, then you ought to re-think how this is reflecting badly against you. Others may just totally dismiss your rant...while others may silently reflect that you protests too much.

Mike Duffy was speculating if there will be digging and more auditing. One of his guests is hoping that they look into auditing the Gun Registry and all contracts that have been awarded. It will be interesting to know about Foreign Aid. How likely will it be? Will the process of cleaning up include that...or will they just let it slide?

A journalist at Mike Duffy said that actually when the Ambassador spoke, it was just something that casually came out....that the journalists did not even think anything of it.

No, But the left wants us to...they want us to think Harper is being anti-American now... Jason Kenney said it best...he said, when you talk to your friends, sometimes you've got to show some tough love. I think he's right... When Paul was being anti-American, they were all cheering. Now that Harper only showed a bit of steely determination....they seem to be criticising. No matter what he does, they try to find fault.

When incest and child abuse came to the fore some years back, child welfare advocates have all concluded that SILENCE was the reason why it had gone on for generations undetected. Nobody believed the children that any sexual abuse was being perpetrated at homes. Some authorities even turned the tables around to suggest the children were just lying. When women were being battered, the shame of admitting being battered by a spouse had caused so many to suffer in SILENCE. People simply looked the other way. Some justified the beatings! Now, when all that is being raised is a legitimate concern, instead of trying to reach an understanding in a constructive way, a virulent pressure is being enforced for us to remain SILENT. Ironic.