betsy

Well, there is a difference. One deals with something tangible and real, like a carpet. The other deals with superstition and misrepresentation of life. At least the carpet cleaner was being honest when he said you're living like a pig. Oh Bubber, you of all people should be the first one to understand what I am saying, after all you've been whining about people telling you drugs is bad for you! Anyway, Tangible or not. Honest or not. Pressure tactics or not. Still the same bottom line: they're both telling you how to live!

That's what some of their acquaintances said of the killers, and they had also dismissed their braggings...they didn't think much of it. But then, the comments about Rachel were extreme in nature. As I've said, we get annoyed by hockey juniors knocking on our doors...but I don't think any of us here joke about hurting them! Yes, the comments made about rachel were more likely harmless prattle...but it is your reaction that I find disturbing, to be quite honest. When I've expressed my outrage over those comments, why do you seek to downplay and dismiss the whole thing as being hyper-sensitive on my part? Do you really know those people personally that you can confidently vouch that none of them is a Harris or a Kiebold? I guess holding up the mirror shows such a stark reflection: you've got the same extremists and looney nuts in your midst.

Both might be annoying, but one wants to tell you how to clean your carpet, and one wants to tell you how to live your life. Nobody is going to tell you that you'll go to hell if your carpet isn't clean. But evangelical fuckheads have told me that I'm going to hell if I don't listen to their advice on how to save my soul. I find it profoundly insulting and offensive. -k Yeah the salesman tells me how to clean my carpet...same as a preacher tells me how to clean my soul! The salesman tells me I live in filth, and must love being in it because I didn't want to buy what he's selling....same as the preacher tells me I live in sin because I didn't want to buy what he's selling. The salesman used the scary tactics with my health...and the preacher used the scary tactics of hell! So there's no difference there! Bottom line: they're both telling you how to live!

If you can't see a difference between religion and vacuum cleaners, I'm at a loss. -k I guess you missed my other post: "I let a guy demonstrate a vacuum cleaner for me, since having done that way back....I know he was a newbie trying to get his experience and bearing on how to get his foot in the door. My mistake. His supervisor entered the picture...and tried to "close the sale." When I wouldn't buy...the supervisor became insulting..and indicated I must love living like a slob if after seeing that my carpet has some piles of unseen dirt, I still cannot appreciate the superior performance of his product." When these ADULT salesmen give their sales pitch in the privacy of your own homes...and as I had experienced, this guy even had the audacity to insult me right in my own home....in comparison to what Rachel had done, approaching someone in a public place, and giving her 30-second sales pitch along with a brochure....I think things are little bit out of whack here when this little girl is getting all these vicous comment! If you can't see the comparison between the two....well I'm surely at a loss! Like I said, you are surrounded by people and propagandas trying to tell you how to live...everyday of your waking life! A little annoyance from someone like Rachel is no big deal to normal people!

You're comparing internet trash-talk to spousal battery? Get real, Betsy. If you don't understand that there's a big difference between what people feel free to say on an internet message board compared to what they'd do in a real life situation, then I'm not sure you're qualified to be on the internet. How many high school killers had been on the web bragging about their intent? Harris from Columbine was said to have bragged to want to "rip the arms off racists...etc..," Anyway, I'm just perplexed why you're trying to down-play those comments, Kimmy. Like they're just normal comments to say about a girl...whose only "crime" was to give that 30-second spiel. I was responding to your comment: "Good grief. I don't think a few comments about slapping her qualify as "vicious savagery." And yes, compared to spousal abuse....a few comments about slapping a woman would get the rabid response of the feminists, and those who purport to abhor violence against women! Comments like those wouldn't be acceptable to them! They'd swoop down like locusts condemning those commentators! How is this any different? Because Rachel happens to be a Christian?

Sorry to pick this one to the bone...but I do have trouble seeing how this simple action on Rachel's part can be so offensive to the point of attracting all these vicious comments. I let a guy demonstrate a vacuum cleaner for me, since having done that way back....I know he was a newbie trying to get his experience and bearing on how to get his foot in the door. My mistake. His supervisor entered the picture...and tried to "close the sale." When I wouldn't buy...the supervisor became insulting..and indicated I must love living like a slob if after seeing that my carpet has some piles of unseen dirt, I still cannot appreciate the superior performance of his product. I guess I shoulda chased him with a machete! Bottom line: we deal with people and propagandas telling us how to live...we're surrounded by them! With how these people commented...and hardly anyone voiced any objections or pointed out the EXTREMISMS of such outbursts of emotions.......and they have the gall to criticize the "loonie-ness" of Jesus Camp? These non-religious people are worse! Since they've got a a target in their sight! And it's only a little girl at that! With all these things showing up...maybe Jesus Camp is not a bad idea. Christians never know what other loonies are out there!

Religion is not a matter of taste for me...or for others like me. Although for some it is....who want to pick and choose what morality should be in it...or what morality should be changed...or excluded. Some go to the extent of challenging the church and its belief. Some end up creating their own religion...creating their own version of what they think it ought to be! You wanted solid reason gleaned from compelling arguments. And I tell you, faith and reason do not go together! I think you should re-read the exchanges...

I do not feel Muslims wearing traditional garments judging me. I don't know why you would feel that way if you are on your own soil. For some reason you seem to feel guilt....where you should not.

We shouldn't have public schools at all then! Schools should be run by religious institutions. Atheist and Agnostics should have their own. Why should taxpayers bear the burden of supporting schools that do not recognize our beliefs...and undermine our values by teaching and promoting values that goes against our belief? That should make everyone happy.

Kimmy, this was all she said: "Hi. um, God's just telling me that you're on his mind, and he just wants to take you and love on you and he has special plans for you and your life. He just wants you to follow him with your whole heart." So where's the litany of thou shalt not? She just gave a 30-second spiel. At least she did not come to the privacy of your own home trying to give you a demo...like salesmen of vacuum cleaners, air filters and water purifiers! Why so sensitive about this girl's "advicing strangers how to live?" Doesn't commercials and ads practically spout out the same advice? Don't the fanatical busy-body crusaders don't do just that? Very much in-your-face and maniacal in their quest for controlling our behaviours. Inside our own homes! From what you should eat...to what you should breathe....to how you should die...to how you should raise your children...to how you should think...etc., If you should be sensitive about dictatorial intrusion by complete strangers "advicing" us how to live....then direct thy wrath and indignation towards....those fanatics over there...from that other side of the fence! They plot for more as we speak.

Good grief. I don't think a few comments about slapping her qualify as "vicious savagery". If little Rachel's parents read those comments, perhaps they'll think twice about having her roll up on complete strangers with advice about how to live. -k "If she walked up to me, I would grab the leaflets and make her choke on it. " "please god, help this girl smash her face on a rock." If these do not qualify as "vicious savagery"...I guess brutalized women have been over-reacting about the "love taps" they get at home. Anyway, what do the anti-spankers have to say about that, I wonder? Since most of them come from that other side of the fence!

I worry about the motive of those who are already here! The fanatics from the other side of the fence! Boy, when they start quoting these lines (which I got from comments on Brad's link)... "They are too young to know what they think. To slap a label on a child at birth - to announce, in advance, as a matter of hereditary presumption if not determinate certainty, an infant's opinions on the cosmos and creation, on life and afterlives, on sexual ethics, abortion and euthanasia - is a form of mental child abuse." [Richard Dawkins]." "To succeed the theologan invades the cradle. In the minds of innocents they plant the seeds of superstition. Save children from the pollution of this horror."- Col. Robert G. Ingersoll [1833-1899]" It can't be far behind that some holy lobby group will push for all children to be raised and doctrined by the state. And I ain't talking about universal daycare! Although it's a giant step in that direction! How does the parents of Rachel feel reading the vicious savageries aimed at their daughter? I am still disturbed by them...still angry and outraged by them! And I don't even know her! Rhetorics and violent imageries, they take on a new light when we think of our own children as the cast of characters in these imageries. The innocence of Rachel in her joyful belief in Jesus....the innocence of our children in their joyful pursuit of Hockey. The impact of savagery is more than just disturbing...it grabs your heart...it becomes frightening....when we picture our own children in the shoes of Rachel.

I guess, Islamic Militants are protected species.

Parents are the MAIN adult figures of authority...of course children will learn from them and believe in their parents' belief. It is the parents natural right to pass down their belief and philosophy to their children. You believe what you believe...and you pass it on to your children. That is a parental responsiblity! What are you suggesting here? Let our children loose to roam the world to find their own way? It's not even safe to let them go to the mall by themselves! I hope this does not mean what I suspect it means. Another banning waiting to happen? Or is this just another "wishing will make it so."

Darn! It's only for the XBox? Playing on PC...I can't feel the same enjoyment. I guess I don't feel comfy...it feels different from sprawling or reclining in front of the tv. Right now I'm playing Dark Cloud 2 (have finished Dark Cloud 1)...an old game but it has a lot of things to do too other than building up your level. Side quests, fishing (which involves levelling up too)...then you can breed your own fish and level them up and enter them in contests. There's the game "spheda"...it's like golf (but you use different clubs for different purpose), you also level up and can morph your weapons. You have supporting characters that you can take with you to battle....choosing from their different abilities! I like war strategies too...like the Romance of the Three Kingdoms series (although I've got them still waiting to be played. Reading the tutorials and learning the controls is an aspect that I find daunting sometimes). I'm into action too...but I find them stressful....so I play them in little doses. You should see God of War....the graphics is just awesome! I usually go to Gamefaqs and GameSpot to check out the reviews on games...or post on their message board for recommendations.

A 9 year old girl was trying to get subscriptions of magazines (mainstream glamour popular names)....she was hoping to reach a quota of subscribers so she can have the prize: a limo ride. The companies know that no one can refuse children...especially grandparents and other close relations and friends of the families. I know it has merits...teamwork or learning how to go for it...etc.., But it's still exploitation, because somebody is makig a profit out of the labor of these children. I failed to add that I declined the girl's pitch for magazine subscriptions. I guess her mother felt slighted because of that....and didn't speak to me for years. But you see how kids are being used here by the companies...through schools and the childrens' parents? And we're no longer talking $3.00 worth...the minimum subscription from what I remember was around $20. I feel the method of coercion being applied by companies' marketing tactics.

Although it is being refuted by others, remember Cassie Bernall? She's one of the victims from the Columbine massacre who was asked "Do you believe in Jesus?" ...to which she tearfully replied, "yes," and right after, the killer pulled the trigger. The Amish children massacre that happened recently involved the older girls asking the killer to spare the small children, and offered their lives instead. How many young children..or even teens...would willingly offer their lives, in exchange for others? To me, this is not unbelievable. Faith had given these children who died, the strength...the courage...or the dignity, at least....to face the horror that came.

Faith and reason do not go hand in hand. Faith is believing in something that has no proof. My question stands... on what grounds should any of your moral views, grounded as they are in a religious belief that you yourself say people are free to adopt or not as they see fit, carry any weight with anyone? In other words, why do you think your moral opinions should matter to anyone who does not shre your taste? Why would you think your moral opinions should matter to anyone who does not share your views? No one is forcing you to accept views and opinions you don't agree to. And I surely think, (and I should hope not), you do not believe in forcing anyone to accept yours either...do you? So we're back to what I've said before: at the end of the day...it boils down to your own choice (if you live in a free society). If you don't like the show on tv...simply switch the channel. Or turn it off. This practice of free will in a free society makes life and decision-making less complicated.

Thus we should treasure our freedom. So many had died securing it for us.

If there is nothing to live or die for......what's the meaning of life?

See post #87.

Faith and reason do not go hand in hand. Faith is believing in something that has no proof.

Unless you belong to a society in which you are forced into it.

I don't know much about that so I cannot really say anything. Your question which I answered to was: "But if you aren't buying, why should the morality associated with this thing that you are free to buy (or not) be proposed as a matter for public implemetation? Likewise, why should the morality associated with your religion, a religion you imply is merely a matter of taste, be proposed as a model for public behaviour?" But what I do know is that the values of colonizers usually end up getting into the system of colonized countries....which is only understandable if they're the ones who established the politics and the laws... of course their religious values are understandably reflected into those laws. The pioneers /colonizers of America are Christians. So the model for public behaviour that was established by those pioneers/colonizers reflect the Christian values.

Because I cannot...and don't want to presume how others might feel. I cannot answer for them. That's all. I was answering Dark Angel's question: Do we really need faith? Thus I answered: I can only answer for myself alone. I need my faith.