betsy

You believe in the Old Testament. True Christians should believe in the Old Testament....Christ made that clear in the New Testament. So Jews and Christians have the same foundation. Our moral standard is the same. For Christ's teachings was to stress the absolute importance of following the Commandments of God. And as I said: If they understand the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, they understand by way of a moral code that is similar to Christianity. You don't have to be a Christian...or a Jew.... to be good.

I read the title. But it is you who brought your own topic to Christianity....as early as post#6. And on....and on...and on...it went. Hey, you were on a roll! You should've titled it appropriately: Christianity is Child Abuse. Post#6 Your title is one false advertisement! And when you can't come up with a rebuttal to my statement, you say your topic is about religion. Yeah religion: Christianity! I mean, how can we take your arguments seriously??? So.... Whatever.

Whatever. After all this time that I've been talking about TRUE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.

The source of our western moral standard is Christianity. There is no other standard. Atheist, moral relativists, nihilists, etc., don't have a moral standard. Their rules are self-declared. What THEY want is the "standard" , which of course is not a standard at all. Therefore whether a child is religious or not, if he's taught Christian morals, he understands Christian values. And if he understands western values, he'll fit into our society. If they understand the difference between right and wrong; good and evil, they understand by way of a moral code that is similar to Christianity. You don't have to be a Christian to be good. But Christianity requires much more than just being good.

If you don't have sex, you won't get AIDS! It doesn't matter whether the Pope said it or Hitler said it. It's a fact. It has nothing to do with the Pope's or Jesus Christ's stand on sexual behaviour. What do you expect the Pope to say? They won't like his solution because it will mean they'll have to behave themselves. Shucks. No more promiscuity. No more adultery. No more orgy! No more f--- buddy! No more sodomy for heaven's sakes, what's left in life??? Ha-ha-ha! Well, if nobody has guns, certainly there wouldn't be gunfights!

Ha-ha-ha! You're making it sound like this AIDS thing is not a life-or-death disease that's transmitted through sex (or needles). Sex spread AIDS like wildfire. It's spreading so fast....that it's considered critical. The Pope is offering a very straightforward solution. Abstinence or monogamy. So he still believes that sex should be for the purpose of reproduction...what's that got to do with this??? We're talking about AIDS, remember? Millions dying...spreading rapidly...the world is in panic-mode, or so I think. I mean really, is this an appropriate time to nitpick on what he believes in and gripe about offending those who still want to pursue their carefree lifestyle? That comment kinda lessens the gravity of the situation....the reactions to his statement so ludicrously comical....like as if this AIDS crisis is just like a trivial flu-epidemic. Talk about being out of touch with reality! If people don't care about faith....why should they care what he thinks or believes? It almost sound like they want to have his approval! They don't believe in or follow his restrictive sexual polices that's based on his faith...so why should that bother them? If they don't want abstinence, then there's another alternative: monogamy. I guess monogamy is still not acceptable for some, not "recreational" enough I suppose - well that's their call! They know the risk. What! Are they waiting for the Pope to offer them a miracle?

Please don't put words in my mouth. That is not what I said. Kindly re-read my statement.

Some Christians drift away without even realizing it. We simply stop....distracted by things around us. I am guilty of that. As a youth and young adult, like most my own age I went through the usual rebellion against religion and my parents' values. I had the usual questions of challenge against faith, trying to prove my parents wrong! But a certain time in life I also realized I sound more and more like my parents. Values I rebelled against were and are mirrored and reflected in most of my life's decisions and actions. I guess it depends on how parents instill God and religion and the accompanying values that comes with it in a child. We've heard of the importance of the formative years in a child. The values that we learn from parents/guardians are the foundation. And now I am embracing the faith. I am comforted and content....but I do pray that I will always remain strong in the face of temptation and other distractions.

With their own reasons. Just like you have your own reason. You have something against religion, because of what happened between you and your family. And perhaps it's not the only reason since you tried other types of religion. You may not be angry anymore but I sense the hurt has not fully healed. I'm sorry to hear about what happened...thank you for sharing it with me. From what you describe about your values, you seem to walk the narrow path much better than a lot of christians. Could it be some remnants of values you've learned as a child? I am assuming your family belonged to another christian group before converting to Jehovah's. I am not forcing my belief on you. Though I have been a christian from birth.....it is at this stage in life that I am seeking to learn about Christ and His teachings. Finding it hard to trust organized religion (for fear of being misled), I've decided to learn about Christ from the Bible. I try to tune in on Charles Price on tv every Sunday for he has the knack of making me understand passages easier....and as I chew and contemplate on his explanations (which are so down-to-earth, to me they make a lot of sense). I fnd solace, comfort and inner peace even in difficult times....especially in difficult and painful times. WIP, as you said in one of your replies, you took religion quite seriously. Somehow you've been let down by the different types of religion you tried in your quest to find God. As I said before, from the way you describe your values, it looks like you are more of a follower of Christ than a lot of christians. Just read the Bible on your own. Who knows, you may be closer to finding Christ...all you need to do is to humbly call and accept Him.

That still does not change the fact that he's got a valid point! How long did the abstinence education by the Bush administration go on compared to the use-of-condoms program that was promoted also here in Canada, which included giving free condoms? Keep pushing education on abstinence or MONOGAMOUS relationships. And keep pushing the use of condoms. Realistically...that's all we can do unless we get sex "police" to enforce and ensure that condoms are actually being used.

I am not just using that claim to victimhood...I'm just stating the obvious. A lot of atheists used to be christians at one time. And they do have something against the faith (varied reasons)otherwise they wouldn't have left the fold at all. For others, the Christian Faith is too "severe"....they find it too "rigid"...too "constricting"....too "forbidding". It wouldn't let them do whatever they wish. Raising children to understand and follow the true teachings of Christ is not abuse in any way. In fact, not to do so (especially in most western societies) should be termed as a form of child neglect! A child who's raised to understand and follow the teachings of Christ is almost surely to follow the laws of society. As I said before, it comes naturally. He'll have more resolve to resist temptations of peers that could lead him to trouble: drugs, unwanted pregnancies, gangs. The current climate of thinking produces a lot of confusion. As an example: when it was fashionable never to use the word "no" when disciplining a child. Then when date rape became a problem, what do you think was the slogan for fighting date rape? "No means No!" Some parents spoil their children...indoctrinate and encourage that "keeping-up-with-the-Jones" mentality, and then later on when he gets older, he faces a harsh reality: money does not grow on trees. No, letting a child grapple about God and values without any parental guidance is like throwing that child in a raging river and yelling: "swim!" Besides, our waters now are too murky!

Read the article: "Pope says condoms not answer to fighting AIDS" He's got a point. Condom was supposed to be one of the leading answers in preventing unwanted pregnancies....did it work??? Instead, we have unwilling mothers galore and legalization of abortion! The Pope is just stating common sense. Abstinence or monogamous relationship is the only way to fight the rapid spread of AIDS. Let's face it, no matter how hard you educate people and make them understand about AIDS, there will still be some who'd be reckless and irresponsible who will throw caution to the wind....but if there are not many willing partners, how far will it get? Yes, what he is advocating is based on faith....nevertheless like it or not, it does makes perfect sense!

Bubber and WIP, you might find it interesting to listen to Charles Price. I find his interpretations of the Bible so down to earth....somehow, he makes it sound so easy to understand. I know what you mean by a lot of organized religion. I would suspect some were established just to make money. But then, Christ had said that there'll be false prophets and those who will use his name.... You'd be surprised to see not one or two, but several passages in the Bible that address the hypocrisy and corruptions of the clergy and the pharisees.

Hey there, buddy....yes it's been a while. I work out of the house now so time is so limited.

Well then I was referring to a Christian believer. If by trying to adhere to the exact teachings of Christ (sans distortions and manipulations by mere men usually just so to suit it to their needs or by popular demands - moral relativism), I guess I'm a fundamentalist! I'm okay with being described as that. I struggle to try to adhere...but then, don't we have to in order to achieve whatever is it we crave for? Weight-loss? No pain, no gain? Who said it's going to be easy? Christ Himself warned us it's going to be tough. I sure won't be able to answer a lot of questions atheists will want to ask. I'm not trying to convert you to join in any religion. I'm inviting you to learn about Christ. As far as I'm concern, people who don't believe do not scare me at all. Scared is not the right word to describe me. It is those who claim to believe...those who have the power to lead and sway....and use the name of Christ to mis-lead. Those are the real threats to the Christian faith, imho. If trying to adhere to the teachings of Christ (sand the distortions and manipulations of mere men just so to suit their needs or bow down to popular demands) is now described as fanaticism...then I'm a fanatic. I have no problem being called that. As to the word limited "acceptance" of people with other religions...I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. It is a war-fare, religiously, morally and spiritually! Good vs Evil. In our everyday lives....in our midst. Just for starter, why do you think we have our criminal laws? "inflammatory"...."offensive"....."un-acceptable"....what other "in" words are there now to go along with this? Boy, you remind me of the HRC! I am a Catholic, actually....although not a practicing one. I just call myself a Christian now. There's a lot of distrotions out there on the words of Christ....and on several passages, he'd warned us about false prophets, lamabsted the clergy for hypocrisy etc.., I have to go...I'm running out of time, unfortunately.

Jbg, you know full well that I've always ...finding the right word....have a soft spot in my heart for Israelites (Jews). As a child and beyond that, my father always say how the Jews are the chosen people, and that Jesus himslef was a Jew. I have been reading the Bible (first time around, not with a Bible study group), and sure enough....it is true! Boy, as Jesus had said: "You are a stiff-necked people." You guys have an unsettled business with God, it seems. The Old Testament had prophesied about Christ.

This title, "Religion is child abuse", suggests that parents should not exercise their parental rights in imparting to their children their own moral values - which are mostly based on religion (in this case it is obvious in Bubber's talk of the Commandments, hell and damnation, that the emphasis is really on Christianity), that the parents adhere to. Isn't this a farce? Another mockery...a blatant example of moral relativism. Here you are having all this angst about how children suffer "abuse" and have to "endure" indoctrination.... What about children who are being raised by parents who are alcoholics....or dopers....or by self-absorbed parents who put careers and self ahead of their offsprings? Children who have to endure losing a parent through divorce because their mom and dad did not have the perseverance to put more effort into making the marriage work...easier to justify that "it's for the best" even though evidences abound that there are serious repercussions later on in life. These children do not suffer mere hours enduring this "indoctrination" to the painful reality of having to live with parents like these. If you deem it child abuse to have them listen to gospels and teachings of faith....boy, what do you call the ones the likes I've enumerated above? What is it like for a child living with and depending on, day in and day out, with an alcoholic I wonder? I've never seen anyone posted an outrage claiming it is child abuse. SO let's get a grip on this and just say it plainly for what it is: you have something against Christianity. The irony is that if only children are taught the true teachings of Christ without any distortions, society would flourish and your children will have the inner stength to handle whatever comes their way. You won't need any psychologists! Most of you atheists used to believe but for whatever reasons, you've stopped and turned away from your beliefs. I'm curious as to why. It can't be because of the corruptions you've seen in church...or atrocities that have been done by men using the name of the Lord. Is it? If so, re-visit your Bible. Before you come out swinging accusing the Christian faith of this ridiculous nonsense, sit back and look around you.

What's a "modern" Christian?

Well, that's your opinion. Tolerance and acceptance.....Hey! Come to think of it, how do you get your child to think about that all by himself? And what about the first half of my response to you? Do you teach your child the necessities of basic survival....or do you let him do that for himself?

True believers of what? If all troubled people would find solace and comfort in God, I guess this psychologist knows he's out of business! He won't be able to compete with faith. Better knock down the competition. Christians are supposed to spread the word of God. What religions? Are we talking the different Christian denominations? What do you mean by "accept?" No. Those who claim to speak in the name of Christ and distort the will of God, those who corrupt and abuse using the name of Christ....those are the real threats. There are a lot of people who turned away from Christ because of those threats I mentioned above. You say "that I had taken the trouble to revive", and "seem to want to bring it back to life, so it's more plausible that this is an example of someone with religious beliefs who's threatened by the existence of people who don't believe in a supernatural world". I haven't been on this forum for quite a while and I stumbled on this topic. The premise interests me. So my response had resurrected it....hey, better late than never I say. I wonder though why that would worry you so. You almost seem upset! Why then did you answer? You could've easily ignored my opinion, after all you've had your day participating when this thread was alive and active, and now you seem to think I'm just flogging a dead horse. Dead thread indeed. Judging by your unusual comment, I'd say it is you who seems aptly threatened by the existence of people who believe. What more, people who believe....and who dare unabashly voice out their beliefs! All I stated is the fact that not all professed christians are "true" Christians. Do you think priests who molests children are practicing the teachings of Christ?

Well, yah! Does a child know the dangers of crossing the road? Playing with matches? The consequences of touching boiling water...of getting scalded? ETC., Don't you teach your child the necessities to survive? Don't you teach him what you think is best for him? Animals do. Besides, don't you think you're placing quite an insensible burden on the shoulders of a child...having him think and make decisions on somethings he has no comprehension about? Furthermore, what makes you think that post-modern liberalism is "thinking for yourself?" Post-modern liberalism derives from the philosophy of Nietzsche and the mindless followers who have distorted even his warped theories. Think of them! Hitler. Lenin. Pol Pot. Superman exists in the mind of post-modern liberals. He is as destructive to those "thinkers" as he is to society. Go ahead. Teach your child that he has replaced the dead God. We can see where it's leading.

What do you mean by "default?"

Of course you wouldn't say that face-to-face! Face-to-face bigotry can result in sore face!

Good answer!

Why do you say the standard is impossible???? Why, do you want to beat up your neighbor? You want everything that's his without earning it? You want to commit adultery? Falsely accuse someone or lie about your neighbor? Kill him? What's so difficult about that? See? If children are taught these moral values from the get go, it's a no-brainer. Following these rules comes quite naturally. Bubber, the only one that I can see being onerous or difficult for you is the first commandment. Btw, some scientists/psychologists are beginning to realize that the human mind is "hard-wired" to believe in a Creator. Children instinctively understand the concept of creation. They scratch their heads at the idea of evolution. You talk of child abuse? Child abuse is raising your child as a post-modern liberal.