betsy

Well WIP, what can I say. Those are your interpretations. You're still on about Jesus' hand-washing comment...even after I've given you the context of how it transpired. You insist that He should've said this or he shouldn't have said that....yet you pointedly ignore the sources I gave you about the doctors and nurses neglecting to wash their hands...in this present day....when superbugs and other diseases are becoming problems. You nitpick on what happened eons ago, an incident which does not even give the conclusion you wish. I don't know what denominational leanings this commentator Henry Matthews has.....but his interpretation, including the explanation of the rituals in those days is shared by other commentators. I find it questionable - his introduction to the commentary...but like I said, the part that I quoted is shared by some. And definitely, his explanations about the "death" part. I agree with that since I've come across other different passages where-in the usage and meaning of the word "death" or "die" as explained, implied and insinuated by Christ as such: death means no salvation. No life. No resurrection. Death is final. Dead is dead. Gone to nothing. Which ironically is what atheists believe about death, if I'm not mistaken. Atheists believe this one time of living is the one and only chance to live life. Just think for a moment and think hard. Just imagine the immense pressure to make something out of life since it's the one and only chance you've got. And if you happen to be borne in a pathetic situation, or faced with dire life-changing circumstances...too bad. Too bad if you mess up and see that one and only life you have riddled with what worldly people judge as "failures"... ..."did not reach his/her potentials"... ...never became what they define as a "success"... ....never "made" it..... ..."insignificant".... ....did not leave his/her "mark".... ..."wasted" life away.... ....amounted to what they say is, "nothing"..... ...did not "get a life".... Talk about totally depressing! And some say the Christian religion is scary? How can an Atheist have hope when he sees his life shattered all around him? His family gone, his job gone, he's age-ing and he still lives in a trailer park waiting for his disability pension...knowing it will take a miracle to at least give him a semblance of what the worldly "good Life" is all about. If he could only but taste it before he dissolves to nothing. They believe when they die, they're gone for good. No expectation of life after death. Well at least atheists got that one right.... You insist Jesus is talking about some piddly little physical death (man-made punishments and human iniquities such as stoning etc.,)...when the very act of killing is a direct violation of God's Commandments...and the whole teachings of Christ is centered on the spiritual life! Well that's the explanation of "death" by Jesus. In other words, if a sinner dies, he goes where the atheists go! Since you're now an atheist, the death He meant was YOUR own belief of death, in fact! How much clearer can I get than that in my explanation to you? I explained to you what the meaning of "death" is. You choose to insist your own interpretation. Free will. I will argue no further. You were a Christian before WIP. You already know the Word. Or at least some or most of it. As you said you took religion seriously. Maybe, you even know more than me. Therefore you must know about the condition for salvation. You must know that you cannot plead ignorance. You cannot say "I didn't know." Faith is hard to sustain. Even the Apostles who had witnessed a lot of miracles struggled with their faith. Jesus even told Peter that He prayed to the Father that Peter will not waver in his faith. How many times did He chide the disciples for their lack of faith after witnessing the miracle of the fish and loaves? And Thomas, even after Jesus had risen, still doubted....until Jesus asked Thomas to touch his wounds. Jesus could've just blasted Thomas for his doubts. Yet, He patiently dealt with Thomas. If He can be generously patient for the disciples who witnessed all sorts of miracles and yet doubted....what more with us who were not there to witness anything? You know, I'm a late bloomer (I can't find the right words to describe me)....all these years being born and raised to Christianity, it's only last Sunday that I've come to really actually understand the significance of the Resurrection to Christianity. All these years, I've taken being a Christian and faith for granted. Since I started vigorously seeking Christ, and especially reading the Bible....I say again that I feel this inner peace. Last Sunday....when I found out the significance of the Resurrection - what it truly meant....it was like a giant hammer that pounded and drove that realization right in. It was like Him saying: See? Do you see it now? It's hard to explain. But it's like some jigsaw puzzles fell neatly into places. It won't be an easy path. Satan, the mastermind of lies and deceit, will sow confusion and distractions. Reading the Bible helps a great deal to remain focused. All Christians should and must read and understand the Bible - King James Version - for themselves. It will help us know if we are being misled...if the church we're following is following the true teachings of Christ...or if they are just like the Pharisees that Jesus was talking about. I cannot enforce faith on you WIP. And I don't feel that I should continue this debate with you....we both have our firm stance. The argument might goad you into saying things that will only end up hurting you. I pray you find peace. You might find this site interesting. Includes atheist C.S. Lewis, Frank Morrison etc.., http://www.greatcom.org/resources/areadyde...h20/default.htm

You made this statement, supporting and reiterating what was said on that article. You posted that article right after your statement on Post #4. I have no problem about you voicing out your opinion, or posting that article. I am just pointing out to you why the arguments and discussion on this topic cannot just be confined on Quantel Lotts alone.

You must have a reputable source to back up this claim, otherwise you wouldn't be so stout enough to claim of knowing many Canadians think that mental illness is usually the person's fault. Back it up! Reputable sources only! Your neighbor's collaboration does not count. Not even a confession that you can read minds is acceptable.

He can't be a liberal in the modern day sense....He didn't change the rules to suit the moment! His rules are universal, consistent and enduring....doesn't sound very liberal, does it? Besides, He's got common sense!

Furthermore, we've added the impact of broken homes to youths as another of those branches (problems)....which of course you refused to acknowledge and even went as far as dismissing it as "out of topic!" Really! Talk about being mis-informed!

You keep insisting that we stay on topic. FYI, we are very much right on topic! We are very much with you. You want to keep the discussion solely and fixedly on this one particular boy....but you, yourself did not abide by your own "rule." You want to limit our responses to want you want us to say...yet you can bring up contentious arguments (which obviously you don't want anybody to argue with). You want it all your way! You are a perfect example of today's "enlightened" know-it-all, control-obsessed liberal-thinkers that actually contributed greatly to the problem we are facing right now. Tango, in case you don't realize yet, let me say it as plainly as I can: We were following your lead. You could've stuck to discussing just this particular case....but oh no! You pretty much opened up the door and made challenging statements by posting this one up: That's why some of us here have to point out the ROOT of the problems! The problems you mentioned above are just the branches that all came from a rotting root!

What exactly do you mean by this?

Btw, Lack Of Hand-Washing In Hospitals audit: Authority says problem allows superbugs to spread Chantal Eustace, with files from Lindsay Kines, Vancouver Sun; with files from CanWest News Service Published: Friday, March 23, 2007 "VANCOUVER - Human nature and lack of facilities are among the reasons hospital staff don't wash their hands enough, a Vancouver Coastal Health Authority official said Thursday after an auditor-general's report said poor handwashing is a problem in hospitals across the province." http://www2.canada.com/vancouversun Hand-Washing An Issue In Montreal Hospital MONTREAL — The McGill University Health Centre has a problem on its hands — literally. Despite research showing lack of handwashing leads to the spread of germs and deadly infections in hospitals, only one in four doctors on some McGill wards wash their hands between patients — something that is mandatory for health professionals to do. That's according to an audit last year that also found nurses do a better job, but their rate of compliance is still just 40 to 50 per cent — even though research shows nearly a third of hospital-acquired infections can be prevented through handwashing. Similar figures apply in Ontario, according to a report by that province's auditor general last year that surveyed 10 hospitals and found compliance with the rules of hand hygiene ranged from just 40 per cent to 75 per cent. http://www.theprovince.com/health hrrmm. <cough> <cough>

Isn't psychosis a mental illness?

You rebuke me for generalizations when you invoke the blanket-sweeping classic excuses that liberal-minded bleeding hearts raise up everytime: poverty. abuse. drugs. So don't give me that baloney! Speaking of gross generalization which you say I do in my posts....kindly cite my posts that you talk about. Notice how you imply with your sweeping statement I do it all the time...... So again, don't give me that baloney! Just because I'm straightforward enough to admit that I have not read the case does not mean that what I've spouted on this topic is not relevant! You are determined to pick this particular case...and had chosen to limit the argument fixedly on this boy alone....when in fact, according to your own source that you've posted, there are several other youngsters in jail facing the same fate. Whether you want to continue to bury your head in the sand...and pick and choose what you want to see and address....it can't be denied, something is wrong with our system!

I've flipped casually through the bible a few times in the past. This is just my first serious read....I have not finished the New Testament...I'm currently on John. The Old Testament is too hard to understand so I skipped it halfway. In modern analogy, the Old Testament is the Letter of The Law, and the New Testament is the Spirit of the Law. I aim to re-read it after (New Testament), chewing and digesting some more. From this first read I've come to see that Jesus has a sense of humor.

What you gave of Mark 7 is just an excerpt. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. ------------------- Death is death. Which means, there is nothing after death. It's the end. A sinner who dies will not be resurrected. No life after death. It is the wages of sin. The Commandment of God clearly says: "Thou shalt not kill." Therefore Moses could not be referring to "stoning" or murder when he said, "let him die the death." Jesus had said, "let him without sin cast the first stone...." so it cannot be that He speaks of stoning or murder when he reminded them of Moses. Violating the Commandment of God, in this case "Honor they father and thy mother" is a sin against God. An excerpt from the commentary by Matthew Henry from Biblegate explains: III. The offence which the Pharisees took at this; They found fault (v. 2); they censured them as profane, and men of a loose conversation, or rather as men that would not submit to the power of the church, to decree rites and ceremonies, and were therefore rebellious, factious, and schismatical. They brought a complaint against them to their Master, expecting that he should check them, and order them to conform; for they that are fond of their own inventions and impositions, are commonly ready to appeal to Christ, as if he should countenance them, and as if his authority must interpose for the enforcing of them, and the rebuking of those that do not comply with them. They do not ask, Why do not thy disciples do as we do? (Though that was what they meant, coveting to make themselves the standard.) But, Why do not they walk according to the tradition of the elders? v. 5. To which it was easy to answer, that, by receiving the doctrine of Christ, they had more understanding than all their teachers, yea more than the ancients, Ps. 119:99, 100. IV. Christ's vindication of them; in which, 1. He argues with the Pharisees concerning the authority by which this ceremony was imposed; and they were the fittest to be discoursed with concerning that, who were the great sticklers for it: but this he did not speak of publicly to the multitude (as appears by his calling the people to him, v. 14) lest he should have seemed to stir them up to faction and discontent at their governors; but addressed it as a reproof to the persons concerned: for the rule is, Suum cuique-Let every one have his own. (1.) He reproves them for their hypocrisy in pretending to honour God, when really they had no such design in their religious observances (v. 6, 7); They honour me with their lips, they pretend it is for the glory of God that they impose those things, to distinguish themselves from the heathen; but really their heart is far from God, and is governed by nothing but ambition and covetousness. They would be thought hereby to appropriate themselves as a holy people to the Lord their God, when really it is the furthest thing in their thought. They rested in the outside of all their religious exercises, and their hearts were not right with God in them, and this was worshipping God in vain; for neither was he pleased with such sham-devotions, nor were they profited by them. He reproves them for laying aside the commandment of God, and overlooking that, not urging that in their preaching, and in their discipline conniving at the violation of that, as if that were no longer of force, This he gives them a particular instance of, and a flagrant one- God commanded children to honour their parents, not only by the law of Moses, but, antecedent to that, by the law of nature; and whoso revileth, or speaketh evil of, father or mother, let him die the death, v. 10. Hence it is easy to infer, that it is the duty of children, if their parents be poor, to relieve them, according to their ability; and if those children are worthy to die, that curse their parents, much more those that starve them. But if a man will but conform himself in all points to the tradition of the elders, they will find him out an expedient by which he may be discharged from this obligation, v. 11. If his parents be in want and he has wherewithal to help them, but has no mind to do it, let him swear by the Corban, that is, by the gold of the temple, and the gift upon the altar, that his parents shall not be profited by him, that he will not relieve them; and, if they ask any thing of him, let him tell them this, and it is enough; as if by the obligation of this wicked vow he had discharged himself from the obligation of God's holy law;"

I was refering to JESUS! Not the Catholic Church or any other chruches! I thought you were responding to my reply to Myata's post. Don't blurr my opinion by pulling in rebuttals that really does not address what I was talking about. Stick to the context. Play fair. Well...you obviously took the Bible seriously enough that you used one of its passages (although you did it out of context), to try to come up with your argument! Re-read my posts again. Especially my reply to Myata's. As I said, His words were ...and are meant for the spirit. You're grasping at straws. Support your argument. Where did it say in the Bible? You don't know the meaning of fidelity? Ha-ha-ha Millions dying of sex-related diseases AS WE SPEAK TODAY! And you're foaming over hand-washing! Stuck in the old days. Come back to the present. It's easier to see. Now, that's quite hypocritical, don't you think so? You're not consistent. Anyway, hand-washing alone is not working. Where are the super-bugs? Mostly IN HOSPITALS! You'd think it will be the last places on earth where they'll thrive since it's run by people of science....the very people who should know about the importance of simple hand-washing. Don't we have enough education on hygiene? From literature to the actual enforcement of it by health inspectors? Oh boy. You've lost me. Support your argument. Where does it say that in the Bible? Well WIP, from what you've presented so far....it's all convoluted. So unless you provide me with any passages from the Bible that you refer to as a source of your argument, I will beg to ignore your opinions. Not out of rudeness....but simply acknowledging that we're just both wasting our time. PS. I'm learning about Christ through the King James Bible. I've got a copy of it but just in case you don't....here's where you can read it. http://www.biblegateway.com

No, I didn't get the chance to read how it all happened. Somehow I can't connect to the news link. I was giving a logical answer. If he is incarcerated, of course he cannot personally commit any crimes on the street. That is an undisputable fact. How can he? He cannot be in two places at the same time. But just because he is not a "street criminal" doesn't give the conclusion that therefore he won't be. I'm not concluding that he will commit crimes either. That's all I'm saying.... And I do think that there is no consistency how law is applied. The punishment should fit the gravity of the crime. LWOP is usually given to Murder 1st degree. The youth should realize that their age does not serve as an automatic excuse for them to commit crimes. EVERYONE should be made to realize that. Some adults actually recruit and use kids to do the crime! We do not serve our youth well if we act like those parents who spoil their children rotten...who let their kids get away with anything. In the end those parents usually end up regretting it. That's how we're sounding now. Just take a look at that recent thing in Quebec when a child sued her father because her father forbade her to go to a school field trip as a punishment for not obeying him. The fact that it was even entertained in court and cost taxpayers money is just so ridiculously stupid!

Resurrection is the very foundation of all Christianity. It is the proof, the power and the promise. Thanks be to God.

Stone-cold killers. No emotions. They don't seem to be human. Remember that poor girl (Veena Virk?) who was beaten by a gang of young girls? After the beating, a girl and a boy followed her and beat her some more? Then the girl casually stepped on her neck to force her face into the water, as she casually smoked a cigarette? The boy was already convicted. The girl's been re-tried again. But from what I read not too long ago, this same girl was implicated on an assault on an elderly while awaiting trial for the murder of that girl. And what about that 14 year old girl and her boyfriend who killed her parents and her young brother? Something is very wrong among some of today's youth.

I do agree with you that there is no consistency in how the law is applied. It depends on what part of the US or the world you are...some laws are too lenient and some laws are too harsh.

You talk of "might"....and "probably." I speak about a fact. If he's in jail he cannot commit any crimes on the streets. Period. There's no might or probably about that.

WIP, You said you've tried several religions. Are they all Christian denominations? What various religious books have your read?

Yeah....and He didn't know what else psycho-babbles modern genius men can conjure up in order to (again)....suit their want. Who would've thought "post-partum blues" would be deemed an excuse to commit murder? But that's another topic. You try to rationalize those exorcisms that He had performed to be such mental disorders....even though He said they were possessions. Jesus did heal those. Instantly. Perhaps therapists, psychiatrists and psycho-babblers should learn His technique. It will save patients money and time spent lying on the couch. You seemed to have read the Bible.... Atheists, non-believers, geniuses who scoff at the Bible, disgruntled ex-christians will find fault...chipping away....to justify their stance. Pick and choose. Take it out of context. Anything to smear Him. Anything to reduce Him. Anything to deny Him. You point out His lack of knowledge with hygiene, yet you conveniently leave out that specific verse....the reason why He spoke of such thing. Anyway, His words are for the spirit. He didn't come to give workshops on proper hand-washing techniques. Ironic that those days didn't see the likes of "super-bugs"....when you think that this modern world knows so much about hygiene and the spread of diseases. Maybe had the Egyptians been aware of hand-washing hygiene, they would've been spared the calamity of their super bug: the locusts! ha-ha-ha You ridicule Him for something taken out of context. If you truly feel that strongly about diseases, then you should applaud him for preaching about fidelity....then AIDS and other stds wouldn't be such major problems these days! Btw, He was rebuking the Pharisees for their hypocrisy! We are in the dark ages. Don't you read the news?

It was Jesus who performed exorcism. If I'm not mistaken, 6 times. Although He gave them the power to heal, I don't think He ever did designate any of his disciples to perform any exorcisms.

Explain why it's "bullshit." Don't just leave it at that. Just because you said so doesn't mean it is so.

Yes. There's one less to commit violence. How many crimes would he have committed if he's out on the streets? So the solution is, don't bother putting violent kids in jail? What's the point anyway? Let it all happen. Don't they? Society and educators come up with some new technique of discipline every so often. Read all types of books on discipline....they all preach about the importance of "CONSISTENCY!" Bullying is not something new. The methods being enforced by society on how to deal with bullies....now,that's something new.

So I'm right! You're stoned! Ha-ha-ha Well interpret it ...correct it...however and anyway you like it. I won't argue with you.

Did I say they are legal??? Read again! I think you're smoking too much....