betsy

And I used the word "Men"- that encompass both men AND WOMEN! Eh? You lost me there. Co-religionist? Care to explain?

Which is why I made sure to stress this!

She can be a lesbo for all I care! Or a transvestite! Oh boy, details really get in the way of a nice little discussion. Details that actually mean nothing!

There are missionaries in some dangerous places. Charles Price didn't name the countries (for obvious reasons).....but he talked about smuggling Bibles into those places!

A lot of horrors done in the name of Christianity. Don't forget the dreadful Inquisition. Even the present-day horrors committed by molesting priests. But again I must stress out that these transgressions were and are being made by MEN! In my view - and I must stress that this is my pov - Satan was, and still is prolific and resourceful in getting mankind to turn away from God!

deleted. double posting.

Yes it's been done before.....not too openly in most dangerous places I guess. That's why there are Arab Christians. It was mentioned in a talk show that there are even small Christian communities in the midst of Muslims (Can't recall what country). Some countries are chasing away missionaries because Muslims are bleeding out to the Christian faith! What she's suggesting is really to go after the immigrant Muslims - a concerted effort between Christians (showing a benign God), feminists (to show them that they - especially women - need not put up with oppression), and humanists (to show them that they are not alone). Right now Hirsi Ali is an Atheist. With her painful experience as a Muslim, it's not surprising. But given time, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that she becomes a Christian convert!

JWs - are you referring to Jehovah's Witness? Aren't they Christians?

Last night I watched part of the documentary on CBC "9/11 State Of Emergency." One segment stood out: A woman trapped in a burning Pentagon who said, "I prayed to Jesus. You have to help me get out of here!" Then a statement from an ex-soldier who ignored orders and went back to the burning building to help people out, "...something happens and you are put to the task. It's like being tested," he explained. The smoke was so thick. The ex-soldier asked "Is there anyone here?" The woman heard and answered yes. Then she got overcome by smoke and collapsed. She said, "Something in my head says I must clap my hands. So I did." It was a weak clap. The ex-soldier said he did not hear the clapping...but he saw the movement in the smoke. And he plucked her out of there. What amazed me was not the way the woman was saved. Not the way the events unfolded that led to the rescue of the woman by the ex-soldier who defied authority. For such things do happen. As the saying goes among believers: nothing happens "accidentally' or "coincidentally." God intervenes at times for reasons known only to Him. What amazed me was the CBC! This particular segment of the woman saying, "I prayed to Jesus..." was repeatedly shown as a teaser. To even have the name of Jesus aired! It is directed at an audience - Christians! It's a far cry from what the CBC used to do before. Some movies now do not shy from referring to the Christian religion in a somewhat positive light, although I can't remember the titles of what I've watched. People are more vocal in talk shows to blurt out about their beliefs. A game show host actually praised a contestant who referred to the Bible! At work, a Christian proprietess lets Christian workers console the dying...to speak of Christ! Charles Price happily speaking about a group of gungho youth going about the cosmopolitan/multi-cultural city of Toronto actively spreading the Word! There seem to be an aggressive stance now....which is how it ought to be! There is an obvious change of climate.

Obviously you disagree with her assessment of the impact of Islam on the liberal psyche. Since I am not sure how you can possibly know for certain what other people actually think about this, care to enlighten us on what you actually think?

This lady - who is an Atheist - proposes a solution to fight muslim radicalization: Proselytyze in Muslim Communities and try to convert them to Christianity. The following is an excerpt from an interview with Hirsi Ali. http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/05/21/why-christians-should-try-to-convert-muslims/ Ayaan Hirsi Ali ( pronunciation (help•info); Somali: Ayaan Xirsi Cali; born Ayaan Hirsi Magan; 13 November 1969) is a Somali feminist activist, writer, and politician. She is the daughter of the Somali scholar, politician, and revolutionary opposition leader Hirsi Magan Isse. She is a prominent critic of Islam, and her screenplay for Theo Van Gogh's movie Submission led to death threats. (From Wikipedia)

And on a lighter note, what does science say these days about..... Wine? Fish? Berries? Olive Oil?

Why did I get cancer? Why do innocent babies die? Why is there so much suffering? Why? Why? Why?....all the usual why-nings. God is...G O D. HE doesn't have to answer or explain HIMSELF to mere mortals that HE created! To demand an explanation from God is to show that one doesn't truly comprehend the meaning/concept of a God. HE said: "Your ways are not MY ways. Your thoughts are not MY thoughts." There are numerous reasons why people do not believe....or turn away from their belief in God (apostasy). The most obvious reason so far that I read in this forum is that....God does not conform to their idea of what a god should be like. They refuse to believe because God did not do....or did not behave in such a way that they think God should. And God demands so much faith....that makes it almost impossible to enjoy all these earthly and wordly pleasures. That makes self-indulgence takes a good backseat and becomes almost nil if one puts God ahead of everything else. To humbly accept that we were created for HIS pleasure. And with all humility....accept that the only real purpose in life is to love, honor and obey HIM. Of course, I speak as a believer. The following is an excerpt taken from a post in the other thread, "Rejoice on this day!"

It looks like the definition of freedom of speech depends on the sitting judge. There is no consistency. Expressing your opinion...a religious opinion at that like saying "Homosexuality is a sin" ...or saying that you believe it is abnormal....can land you in hot water. Those could fall under the category of our improved hate crime now. Yet, preaching "Death to infidels" or "Death to Jews"...even though they definitely incite, passes for freedom of speech....and freedom of religion.

Banking and finance. Sounds so reasonable. I wonder where the Muslim women fit in the Sharia law of banking and finance. I guess we're just supposed to look the other way and agree that Muslim women don't have say on anything, what more so with the financial aspect. Wasn't it only a few decades ago that western women weren't privvy or have no say at all as far as banking and finance? Husbands and men in their lives dealt with those things...cos the little women didn't have the aptitude to understand those things. So men made all the decisions for them. Wasn't it only recently that the current government changed the laws for the Aboriginal Indians.....in order to protect women in cases of divorce or widowhood etc.., And here you are now....justifying the Sharia law. Shame! Liberalist are never consistent! I guess you truly think Muslim women must belong to a different specie of women. They're nothing more than chattels.

Bloodyminded, So she's in hiding. If that's the real case, I genuinely feel sorry for her. As for my rant about political correctness, it is about the siuation that we find ourselves in Canada. Our home-grown terrorists. People like Tareq Fatah, who not only have concern over their own plight as a visible minority (getting lumped together with the jihadists)...but also their concern for their youth who are being radicalized. They speak not only as a community....but also as parents! Before we can truly help other places.....we have to do something first with this growing concern in our own turf.

Actually if there was ever a shortage of Muslim speakers that spout the so-called "wrong narrative," it's more probably because there are TONS of NON-Muslim speakers already filling up the airwaves....doing the talking for them! Besides, during the Israel-Lebanon war as an example.....I've seen a lot of anti-Israel Muslims come out to give their two-cents. The Islamic cartoons....how many coverage did we get on tv? I've heard tons of debates from both side....and actually there were more from the politically correct side. Everytime there was a major happening that involved the hot points (be it Israel, burquas etc..,), there was never - NEVER - a shortage of supporting Muslims giving out interviews after interviews! It is perhaps because she speaks out for too many causes - from the poor, to women's rights to oppression, - and there's nothing wrong about speaking for those......but the impact is not the same as when someone like Tareq Fatah is talking about one particular issue! Joya's message is perhaps dilluted and doesn't come out too strongly because of the many causes she is bringing up. Being an MP to boot....it's probably coming across as politicking. I have never heard of her. Sitting as a FEMALE MP of Afghanistan (with the distinction of being the youngest at that), I wonder if she has to choose Afghanistan being under the Taliban....or being under a corrupt current fledgeling givernment being tutored painstakingly by the West, which I wonder would she rather have? Taliban or the current corrupt government? You see, I find a problem with this. Here is a sitting female MP in a country that's supposed to be all that she's talking about...and yet she's sitting as an MP. What does she think....that change can happen overnight? What is she proposing exactly....that America should get out of there and leave them alone? How can I listen and take her seriously...she could just be another politician trying to make a name for herself. POLITICKING. America is a far more convenient beast to beat up. You can say anything about America. You can curse America. You can spit on America. Your head doesn't get lopped off. And you still get to keep the aid money. I doubt CTV and other news media are not interested to hear both sides. Are you kidding? This is hot news that translates to ratings! You think any Imam who want to speak strongly in PUBLIC about an issue - I stress the word STRONGLY - they wouldn't get to be heard on mainstream news??? I find that too hard to believe.

I've heard quite a few Muslims on talk shows who denounce terrorism and yet on the same breath give reasons to JUSTIFY those acts by pointing accusing fingers in every direction as the cause for all these. This pseudo-denouncement of terrorism, mind you, is not confined only to certain Muslims....it is the "climate" of the western landscape now...a certain mindframe (if that's the correct word for it)...the "enlightened" way of thinking. Some immigrants from other so-called "backward" third world countries provide such refreshing direct, no-nonsense, no beating around the bush statement - calling a spade a spade! Common sense stands out in their reasoning. That's why perhaps when these frank no-nonsense Muslims speak their mind, they really stand out....whereas those Muslims who skate around political correctness when they talk are tuned out! You hear one dripping in political correctnes (no matter what the issue is all about - from child rearing to crimes), they all just sound the same! The lady who went head-to-head with that other Muslim guy who was a spokesman for Muslim-Canadian relations something....she pointed out key facts and challenged him! He just kept repeating what tantamounts to talking points!

What about Sedition? Some Imams inciting violence/terrorism by radicalization! We're not talking about isolated incidents nor plain ordinary loonies that take matters into their own hands. This worldwide terrorism is an orchestrated guerilla-type warfare strategy being waged - whether misguidedly or not - in the name of Islam. This is a religious war. Strong crackdown is definitely needed! Strong reaction not only from the federal government. Strong support to stand behind the federal government should be demanded from the Oppositions, and that these parties ought to put their duty to the people ahead of their own politicking and political agendas! The general Muslim community have a legitimate reason to be concerend about. Dis-trust and deep suspicions, paranoia, frutrations and anger.....can easily be fanned by those with equal agendas (such as supremacists). If things keep going the way they are and if there ever comes a time when a terrorist act happens on our soil that results in death/casualties.....does it require any stretch of the imagination how the climate will be like then for the Muslim community? These outspoken Muslim asking for action from notable people have said, what I think a lot of people must be thinking now: this is not the time for political correctness! When push comes to shove.....does freedom of religion trumps over the security of the nation?

I must've confused you for somebody else because sometime last year, I did get upset with someone not because he/she did not share my views....but because of the way my statement was deliberately taken out of context or twisted about (I don't remember the exact detail). And for that I apologise. I've had a lot of differences of opinion all the way back from when I first started on this forum. The several debates last year got heated up for sure but they were not as heated up nor as fiery as the ones I've had before way way back (most of the hardcore debates then were about homosexuality, religion, aftermath of 9/11, Harper, Child Molesting Priests, etc). So I'm used to toxic debates and as you can see I'm still around...still carrying the same position, waving the same flag. I don't think having everyone agreeing with my view makes for an interesting debate. There won't be anything to argue about. Look, the question you're asking about (the one with the if)....it doesn't make any sense to me considering I've already explained my position. I just wanted to make a correction so it doesn't get misconstrued that I said anything remotely like that (since the statement could also be misunderstood in that context). As for ignoring the question...I don't like to repeat myself as much as possible. I've already given explanations/opinion that makes that question sort of redundant....since those opinion/explanation apply as answers to that question. As I've told you before....I don't have enough time now to spare sitting in front of the computer. That's why I was also reluctant to get into any lengthy debates. The reason I dropped off was because I found myself spending too much time in front of the computer tinkering away at the forum. It was beginning to interfere...to be some sort of a bad habit on my part....like an addiction (I even found myself sneaking in to post during break-time at work)...so I weaned myself away from it. I think every now and then some posters drop off for a break then pop up again. I'm more like that lately. That's all. I'm not angry with anyone even though we've come to heated arguments. Just depends now what topic happens to grab my interest....and lately not that much. I guess I've reached a point of saturation with the subjects that used to interest me.... As for the rest, thank you for opening up and sharing your views. I wish you well.

I have a big problem with that word "if"....makes it sound like I agree with that statement. Which I definitely don't! I remember you now! I got upset with you the last time we were having a very heated debate on one of the evolution/religion threads because of your method of debating. If I'm not mistaken you deliberately twisted my statements or taken it out of context, and tried to pass it off to support your argument. I refused to have any more further discussion with you at the time for really....dishonest methods have no place in a mature or any discussion (and I'm hoping for a mature discussion in this forum)....because what's the point? I am giving it the benefit of the doubt that you have only misunderstood (again)....or just a typo error on your part and that you're not implying I am endorsing Agnosticism for EVERYBODY. I hope you're not using that style now....because that is definitely a deal-breaker when it comes to debate in a forum! If you understood my posts, treating that question as a joke or taking it as an attempt at humor on your part is actually an attempt at diplomacy on my part. I have no wish to spoon-feed you. Read my posts in whole and understand what you read....don't just skim over it. Now, this part is interesting. Why didn't it work for you? What answers were you seeking? Did you read the Bible and try to understand it? You used the word "salvation." What do you exactly mean when you say "salvation?" What do you really mean by having found "salvation within yourself?" That quote above, plus the way you used the word, "salvation." Salvation is a very highly significant Christian term, and you used it in the spiritual context....plus your reference to God. This actually means asking for the help of God. In your subconscious perhaps.... By the sound of it, the existence of God is not just a possibility for you.. You believe He definitely does exists. The parable of The Shepherd looking for His lost Sheep. The sheep are not the non-believers....for how can something which has not been found get lost. The sheep are Christians who had gone astray. Christ has a way of finding them.... even in most unlikely of places. You never know.... I was a "lazy" Christian.....didn't take it seriously....strayed away....disillussioned with the Catholic religion. Although I've always verbally maintained my belief in Christ, it was not enough. Something was hollow deep inside. Something was terribly missing. I re-discovered Christ and this time would like to really understand God and what He really want....not what I want. So I'm reading the Bible (because if I wish to know Him, I should read His book), I finished it once....second go is with the help of a study....and I will read and keep re-reading it until the day I die. Because it gives me comfort. It gives me strenght. I have no fear. Come what may. It helps me keep my focus. I said it before, and I'll say it again....belief is very personal. Now your persistence with this question is quite intriguing because I've already answered this. Your preoccupation with the implication of not following Christ.....all I can advise you is to open and read the Bible and talk to a pastor. I can only stress that you have to! Your question about the grave implication - consequence- of not following Christ, when you claimed to have been an ex-Christian, is quite alarming! For a Christian...or a former Christian to not know the full grave implication of not following Christ....suggests that you didn't even know the basic principle of the religion you were following. And for you to not know or understand the very heart and BASIC principle of that religion....it obviously suggests the big possibility that you also don't understand your claimed position now as an agnostic. You are confused....and I don't say that as an insult. I read the King James version. I hardly go to church (I know I should)....but when I do, I find that the Baptist is pretty close in following the exact Word of God. It is important to know the Bible so you'll know whether you're being misled or what. I would highly recommend listening to Charles Price....he actually was an instrument in my re-found faith. He made understanding the Bible seem so easy that I got into it. I pray and hope that you re-discover Christ.

Actually, that analogy is quite right.

These latest home-grown terrorist suspects, I didn't get if they were allegedly plotting to do the crime in Canadian soil....or if they were supposed to do it elsewhere. Now, if I'm not mistaken it was also said they were allegedly making bombs or weapons for the Taliban in Afghanistan. Since we're fighting a war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, will that not be considered treasonous I wonder.

I think from what I interpret that ToadBrother is saying is that for example when scientists are working on let's say about the universe...they did not set out to prove that God created it or not. I may be wrong in interpreting his question... It will be interesting to know that. Again, you're missing my point. I've already explained this somewhere. I agree with you up to this point. As for omnipotence and all that....you're entitled to your own opinion. Well, we're starting to go on the big circular again....and I do not have much time to waste in a discussion that isn't going to go anywhere. As you must've noticed I post sporadically....and do not post as much as I used to. So I'll just say again, you're entitled to your own opinion. If you're speaking in general... outside the context of what I was talking about. It's hard to maintain a meaningful discussion if we take statements out of context. I guess this signals that we've ran the course of this subject.

Are you "baiting" me? What you choose to do is your business. As for grave implications that you wanna know....what do you want me to say? Of course speaking as a Christian, I pray and hope that you find salvation through Christ. That's all I can do. The choice is yours.