betsy

You think it doesn't get any worse for us to do nothing and let it go on like this? You think it deosn't get any worse for the moderate Muslim? Just with the NYC mosque controversy alone, the backlash is astounding. I saw an indepth report in one of the USA news and apparently people in some small town America are already trying to stop ANY MOSQUES from being built in their towns! Some Muslim students (even elementary school) are said to be experiencing harrassment and bullying because of their religion! This is the fear of the moderates like Tareq Fatah. The backlash! And it will become real! The pendulum will swing to the other extreme if we let this go on! If so, then why come to the west? Canada has its own values. We are multicultural - although I never believed multiculturalism is such a good idea! See? This is somehow part of what Hirsi Ali was talking about that you disagreed with! What about the moderate Muslims like Tareq Fatah who believes in our democratic society. Are you going to let them down because they are fewer in numbers? You fear the anger of many Muslims that's why you'd rather appease and push aside our own western values....is that the answer?

The government should even take it a step farther. Attending an introductory/welcome session to Feminist/Humanist and youth center should be part of the orientation session given to a newly-arrived immigrant! Pamphlets/literature of every participating religious or non-religious groups should be given to them.....just emphasizing the way Canada is as a nation: a tapestry of different cultures and religions.... and indeed a land of freedom. On the contrary, Hirsi Ali being a former Muslim, and now being an Atheist, gives her so much more credibility for no one can say she is biased!

We can either continue deluding ourselves that this problem will go away on its own and leave us alone.....or we come up with a solution now, before it's too late. Anybody got a better suggestion to fighting youth radicalization, let's hear them.

Under normal cirmcumstances, yes government should not get involved at all. However, radicalization is a big problem among the youth. Whether we like it or not, whether the Quran teaches it or not....the fact remains the same: the youth are getting propagandized to hate and jihadism. The moderate Muslims who dared speak out are pointing their fingers at Imams! This is about religion, religion is being used - whether it is indeed part of the Quran or not. How do you fight this? The government will have to step up one way or another to face this situation. Youth are also getting recruited through the internet....we've got to come up with a counterplan for that, considering we cannot stop a lot of these sites. The government can get involved by providing the youth centers! These youth centers are your normal youth centers. They should hold youth activities that would be too tempting for the youth of today! The Feminist groups obviously has to target the females....especially the mothers. A mother who has a solid voice that equals the father's can de a good deterrant for any radicalization. Any other religions - Judaism, Hindu, Shinto, Hare Krishna etc.,.....can all take part! Atheist group are also welcome. The idea is to offer an alternative. To dilute the message of the Imams by having all these other ideologies around. Hirsi Ali is an Atheist. As for why she cited Christianity in particular, I speculate that she must know about the Christian ideology and consider that it might be a tempting alternative for a Muslim. As she suggested, it has to be a concerted effort among these groups. I find this a better strategy....and it is non-violent. This also symbolizes our full democratic freedom!

But, do you see how Hirsi Ali envision it though? I guess to sum it up....we bombard the Muslim communities with propaganda (from Christian denominations, from feminist groups and humanist groups), with the government perhaps offering some incentives to make it palatable and easier for Muslims to at least take a look at and consider these "propagandas." We'll really aim for the youth! So we'll add a youth center to the mix. For every mosque, there'll be a Christian church (and I'd say other religions are welcome to build their churches too), a feminist and humanist support-center, and a youth center nearby. Just treat it like competing businesses targetting a specific market.

eh? What do you mean by this? Put a sign on your door. Christians Keep Away! And I will make it easier for you too. Wily, really, you don't have to answer to my evangelisms....seeing that they seem to aggravate you so. You can Keep Away.

Wily complained about the "cut-and-paste" I did to show the numbers of countries that practice genital mutilation and that he said I failed to say that it was cultural, not religious. Fact, that is still being debated...though it is said to be cultural (for mutilation apparently pre-dates Islam)....there are those who say that it is also being done as a religious practice. I do not debate with questionable opinions that are not backed by anything other than spit. You give your own opinion as you wish....but that's all it's gonna be, your own opinion. Opinion, in order to be taken seriously, however, will come from those with credible reputations....those that are not known to distort, pull straws out of one's ears or indulge in dishonest discourse. Ghostacked spoke about the WTC and moderate Muslims. I talked about moderate Muslims in the thread Tareq Fatah in Federal forum...and where I stand in the matter. Moderate Muslims such as Tareq Fatah are saying the Imams have a lot to answer for! Imams equals religion! Hirsi Ali calling for the Christian religion to provide an alternative benign God. If Gosthack refused to answer and insist to use a senseless excuse not to....what can I say. Then, don't give your answer! Don't worry, be happy! I'll just think you don't have any answer to give. Should anyone still believe I am a bigot....then believe it and call me a bigot to your hearts' content! I see where true bigotry lie and it comes from three posters here....against a group of people called Christians.

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Just to clarify that this proselytizing suggestion will be done in the west.... Death wish? Should we fear this group of Islamofascists that we cannot practice our own democratic freedom in our own truf? Speaking of "fear".....one commentator observed that the way Obama made his speech against the Quran-burning campaign - voicing out that this will mean our troops will be endangered - not only hinted that he fear the backlash, but could've also unwittingly enboldened the massive protests that ensued. Instead of just ignoring this one looney pastor with only 35 congregation members - all these high-ranking officials actually put this guy in the limelight and gave the news more legwork. That the president of the US will step in and made a comment such as that is seen by the enemy as "kow-towing"....or fear...that he is weak and can be intimidated. Isn't terrorism all about intimidation? I cannot but help compare the reaction of Bush, as shown in the CBC documentary "9/11 State Of Emergency"....when he was shown in the classroom full of children and media while the attacks on WTC was going on. His Chief of Staff leaned in his ear to whisper about the deadly attacks. Bush composure did not change at all....just a slight glint in his eye was all the reaction I saw. I must say it was a cool display of leadership under extreme circumstances.... His Chief of Staff who was being interviewed for that documentary explained that he worried about what Bush reaction might be....in front of all the media that were in that classroom with him. Any reaction will be plastered on the front news....and definitely it shouldn't give the hint of a panicked president!

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Just to clarify that this proselytizing suggestion will be done in the west.... Death wish? Should we fear this group of Islamofascists that we cannot practice our ow democratic freedom in our own truf? Speaking of "fear".....one commentator observed that the way Obama made his speech against the Quran-burning campaign - voicing out that this will mean our troops will be endangered - not only hinted that he fear the backlash, but could've also unwittingly enboldened the massive protests that ensued. Instead of just ignoring this one looney pastor with only 35 congregation members - all these high-ranking officials actually put this guy in the limelight and gave the news more legwork. I cannot but help compare the reaction of Bush, as shown in the CBC documentary "9/11 State Of Emergency"....when he was shown in the classroom full of children and media while the attacks on WTC was going on. His Chief of Staff leaned in his ear to whisper about the deadly attacks. Bush composure did not change at all....just a slight glint in his eye was all the reaction I saw. His Chief of Staff who was being interviewed for that documentary explained that he worried about what Bush reaction might be....in front of all the media thaw were in that classroom with him. Any reaction will be plastered on the front news....and definitely it shouldn't give the hint of a panicked president!

You see the way ToadBrother evaded the real issue of this particular topic? He ignored the question: What is so wrong about proselytyzing in Muslim communities to try to convert them to Christianity?

I feel compelled to address ToadBrother's rant, Wyly's rant and even Gosthacked's senseless insertions in this topic.....all these responses had dramatically veered away from the actual topic and are more as a personal attack. It usually means that they cannot defend their positions. It's so transparent how these folks are so confused and in a quandary, just by their absurd reasonings: *ALL CHRISTIANS (the whole religion) is blamed for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the priest molesters, etc., AND YET, they repeatedly argue that ISLAM is not to be blamed for fatwas, suicide bombings, genital mutilation, and other atrocities being practiced in countries practicing Islam. And I am being tarred as a"bigot" even thopugh it is plain in my postings that I do not brush every Muslims with the samne brush. **Wyly's assertion to equate mass muders and massacres by suicide bombers with Christians doing the same thing....I guess he must mean our soldiers fighting at war. How pathetic can we be. **ToadBrothers remark about freedom of religion! The gall and sheer ignorance to compare Conversion by Christians as opposed to the chant, "Death to all Infidels!" I wonder what ToadBrother understood by the word infidel....only gay people? Only adulterers? Only Jews? What's so wrong about Christians proselytyzing in a Muslim community in Canada? Aren't mosques being built in Christian communities? Aren't there any Christians like Casius Clay who convert to Islam? To ToadBrother and Wyly, Freedom of Expression only apply to Islam and any other religion....EXCEPT CHRISTIANS. They bristled at my "evangelism"....in their minds, they see it as evangelism because perhaps any mention of the Christian doctrine is like a pin pricking somewhere inside? Something you don't want to be reminded of? Then that is your own issue with yourselves. That is not my problem. That is yours. I think true Atheists wouldn't care a hoot about my bleeting about my God. I don't think they would display too much protest....secure in their confidence about their own belief. I will not censor myself just so you three would not feel the heat that you seem to feel everytime somebody mentions the word God or the word Satan!

Well I found this and my main concern here is the strict adherence to Sharia's principle. http://www.sib.ae/en/shariaa/fatwa-and-sharias-control-board.html Just with one issue alone....how women are regarded under Sharia law. Letting this Sharia financing into our country is like going along with the un-equal treatment of women! We are setting aside our own values...looking the other way....turning a blind eye....on the plight of Muslim women in our country! Here,in OUR OWN country! Other ethnic cultures couldn't be compared to Sharia. Sharia has its notorious reputation. Further more, why should we extend an invitation to such a governing body to practice in Canada....what's in it for us?

Gosthacked didn't get that!

With a statement like this: You mean you don't get it why it means bye-bye????

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Amnesty International estimates that over 130 million women worldwide have been affected by some form of FGM, with over 3 million girls at risk of undergoing FGM every year. FGM is mainly practised in 28 different African countries.[9] It is common in a band that stretches from Senegal in West Africa to Ethiopia on the East coast, as well as from Egypt in the north to Tanzania in the south; see Map. It is also practised by some groups in the Arabian peninsula. The country where FGM is most prevalent is Egypt, followed by Sudan, Ethiopia, and Mali. Egypt recently passed a law banning FGM.[38] Map: Estimated Prevalence of Female Genital Cutting (FGC) in Africa. Data based on uncertain estimates.Whilst FGM is widely practised out in the open by Africans of varied faiths, it is practised in secrecy in some parts of the Middle East. In the Arabian peninsula, Types I and II FGM are usually performed, often referred to as Sunna circumcision especially among Afro-Arabs (ethnic groups of African descent are more likely to prefer infibulation). The practice occurs particularly in northern Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, and northern Iraq (Kurdistan).[39][40] In the Iraqi village of Hasira, a recent study found that 60 percent of the women and girls reported having undergone FGM.[39] Before the study, there had been no solid proof of the prevalence of the practice. There is also circumstantial evidence to suggest that FGM is practised in Syria and Kurdistan.[40][41] In Oman, a few communities still practice FGM; however, experts believe that the number of such cases is small and declining annually. In the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, it is practiced mainly among foreign workers from East Africa and the Nile Valley. On the other hand, a 2009 study suggested that FGM had virtually disappeared among the Negev Bedouin due to modernisation process under Israeli rule.[42] The practice can also be found among a few ethnic groups in South America.[9] In Indonesia, the practice is common in several districts; almost all are Type I or Type IV, the latter usually involving the pricking of blood release. Sometimes the procedures are merely symbolic, and no actual cutting is done.[43] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision I doubt that. You said that this practice is done only in "isolated areas." Look how many countries are involved! And take note that all, if not most of the countires mentioned practice Islam! So now with stoning, you're saying "a few areas?" If you wish to "knock me off my high horse," then do it in an appropriate thread. This is about the solutions being offered by Hirsi Ali....and it so happens that one of them is proselytyzing in Muslim communities to try to convert them to Christianity. On the other hand, your convoluted response seems to be a perfect example of a confused liberal psyche that Hirsi Ali was talking about.

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You are ranting. I guess this means bye-bye.

By the sound of it, you are taking the side of Islam on this particular topic....that you don't agree with Hirsi Ali's assertion regarding Islam, the reason why she's endorsing conversion to Christianity as a possible answer. I take it then that the following are more compatible with your own values...you approve of the following: 1. forced genital mutilation for Muslim women (including those who are Canadian citizens). 2. Stoning Muslim adulterers, especially women! 3. Murder, including heinous mass murders and massacres 4. Rape and degradation of women You find nothing wrong with these? That's why you put your irrational hatred for all things Christian ahead of a most pressing issue we now face as a nation? Anyway, what's this "Christian evangelism" you're bringing up in this topic? You're throwing dessert sand to murky up the discussion....another "Crusade" defense? I'm talking about WESTERN VALUES! If your values are not compatible with Christian values....What are your values then? Please explain. You cannot just throw an opinion such as that (in a mature discussion), without following it up with an explanation. What are your views on rape, murder, death penalties, equality among men AND WOMEN, freedom of expression, freedom of religion... etc?

I like Evan Solomon. As for Tom Clark, I was not too impressed with him....lately (especially around the time of the Guergis affair), he seemed biased. His bias was compounded when he gave an inaccurate statement while "grilling" a Conservative MP. Clark, in his argument, stated that the Conservatives reported that insider deal scandal (around election time with Harper vs Martin) to the RCMP....when in fact, it was the NDP who reported it. Clark did not even acknowledge his mistake when the Conservative MP corrected him on that...Clark just let it slide. That is irresponsible journalism. That was when I started tuning in to Solomon. Solomon is fair and I like the way he tackles an issue.

Wait a minute here.... Rape and murder is punishable by law! There is a law against rape and murder. Sharia Law, on the other hand, legitimizes rape and murder! So how can you equate both? If Sharia law is done in their own countries....that's one thing! But, it is being imported here! What kind of rationalization is that?

Of course you wouldn't see a flood of them Evangelical Christians....I'd imagine they wouldn't advertise their presence....and they wouldn't be wearing the usual garb! I bet most of them are non-whites! But the fact remains that there are attempts being made. Anyway, what Hirsi Ali was saying is to proselytyze in Muslim communities right here in the west! It only makes sense! Let's face it....Islam is not compatible with western values, and that's putting it mildly!

Unbelieveable! Fancy how the reaction is so typical with the same mindset of people: here is a topic that features an atheist feminist-activist who talks about the PRESENT-DAY problem that the WORLD is facing....this woman is offering some solutions that could not only alleviate the violent situation we're all facing, BUT ALSO to offer some help to her fellow-Muslims. Considering her position as an atheist and a feminist, at least she is trying to look at the situation in an objective way! And what is the response of some of the people here? Typical knee-jerk response to anything Christian! And the lion roared.... "THINK OF THE CRUSADES"! Heck, the Crusades is the root cause why we got jihadists! <slap my forehead> I should've known that! Hirsi Ali should point that finger at the Crusades why she got her genital mutilated and got a fatwa over her head! Hirsi Ali is a fat liar blaming the poor Imams for the radicalization of the Muslim youth....and oppression of Muslim women by Muslim men is just a figment of her imagination. Silly girl.