betsy

Quite frankly I want us in that council seat for the simple reason that if we are to get involved with it one way or another, get bilked by, and be meddled with by this, which in my view is a kangaroo organization....I'd rather we get a say! A huge, huge say! Phoooey. What ideologues do you think rule right now? Climate Change. Immigration. Sexual Orientation. Yeah. It's a farce. A very, very expensive farce! Where countries like China and Libya get to lecture, castigate and even impose sanctions for human rights violations. Where all the usual known enemies of Israel can all gang up together and act as "referee" in wars between Israel and any one of them! Oh and yeah, reminds me of Ignatieff, jumping in during the Israel-Lebanon war to publicly lash out at Israel! Where wealthy countries like Canada made promises to ship generic drugs to Africa....and never kept its promise! The Liberals using this kangaroo organization for poilitical gains and score points. Shows you that's how seriously the Liberals regard this organization.

Do you honestly think all these countries vote without any ulterior motives at all? Harper does not blindly follow the USA. He objects....in a diplomatic way, I must stress....unlike the two consecutive LIberal PM we've had. To whom do you think that speech against protectionism was really aimed at? Just so happens our values are more similar with USA instead of let's say.....Russia.....or Libya. Whether we like it or not, USA and Canada are belly-button-tied.

I understand what you mean. But remember the reason she is doing this. And remember that she did not just say Christians should try to convert Muslims....she also said that Feminists and Humanists should get in on the act. That it is a concerted effort between all groups. Actually the way I see it in my mind is that it's like a fair with competing booths! Get the Youth Center there blasting those music young people love this days and doing all sorts of contests from dancing to rapping to skate boarding etc.., Feminists offering coupons to answer a questionare....or a free make-over with free make-up kits....or free hair cuts etc, I know I'm just playing with the ideas in my head how to go about this. I am also reminded of the interviews with the people from Canadian Muslim Congress (Tareq Fatah). And these people have a real reason for their concern. They could almost see the writing on the wall as to what the consequences could be. We have a real problem with growing home-grown terrorists, and all these folks are pointing their fingers at Imams inside the mosques. Just imagine the growing anti-Muslim sentiment in the small town USA. I've seen this in one of the news channel. There are protests in small town preventing any mosques from being built in their towns! And this is just about that mosque in NYC...near a site of a tragic incident several years ago! The feeling is still very raw! But just imagine how it galvanized to divide a nation, after all these years. We are also still feeling it otherwise we wouldn't be having that topic on this forum. Right now, there has been no successful attacks by home-grown terrorists on our soil....yet. Just take pause and imagine how the climate in Canada will be if there is one or two successful attack and it claimed the lives of many. Imagine the climate of distrust! Of hate. That kind of climate can seriously lead to other unpleasant things. It may seem a gesture of disrespect trying to dilute the message of hate by some Imams....counteracting propagandas (because let's face it....we are dealing with propaganda of hate in some of these mosques), by giving other alternative idealogies and distractions! Respect will fly out the window in a climate of hate and distrust.

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With a seat in the security council, we can have say.....what with all the dollars that we've been giving....and with the seats usually occupied by some despotic, corrupt dictators! Ignatieff does not reaize how serious this is is. If we ever lose this seat, the only consolation I get is that Canada will be reminded how the Liberals underminded our bid as a nation to having that seat in the council! If there is ever a proof that the Liberals are putting their own party ahead of the nation...this is it! And it better be used in every campaign election!

Harpers first conference as Prime Minister with foreign leaders (I can't remember the name of that conference)....when he refused to sign unless Israel was also written and recognized as a victim (?) or something like that. He was able to get all those leaders to capitulate to his demand As far as I could remember, all I heard from the Liberal leaders from Chretien to Martin was...."everybody is doing it, so we have to do it too." The Liberals were never leaders on the international stage....they were followers! Harper managed to get a good relationship with our nextdoor trading partners. He was diplomatic....whereas the Liberals behaved so crudely towards the USA. That pathetic Liberal woman MP who danced on the American flag....with Chretien making excuses for such kind of behaviour! Mind you what do you expect from this bully who couldn't control his own self and choked a protester....his picture on the front pages of all newspapers worldwide! The Liberals I remember are crass! And by the looks of it....they're still that way.

Ignatieff should be asked to step down. This is serious. I'm betting this will be downplayed by most media.

Definitely not. For all his education and apparent reputation as an intellectual....that he'd bomb so many times. Talking without even realizing what's coming out of his mouth. Like when he crowed yesterday after the gun registry vote: that it showed the Liberals are "united." He whipped his MPs with threat of being removed from caucus! He should've avoided using that word, "united?" And now....the full implication of what he said about the security council. This is no longer any domestic squabbling. Ignatieff is an embarassment!

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Furthermore, just because the title "Atheist" was included in the title of the thread....it doesn't automatically mean that the topic is about her atheistic view. If you read and analyze just the title itself you'd find the description "Feminist Activist" also attached to it. If you read and understand the introductory excerpt of her interview, you'd see that it's not about the discussion on her own religious views. Heck, the article's title alone sums up what the interview was all about! If you read and understand the whole interview....you'd see that nowhere was there any mention about her own atheistic views. So your inclusion of Hirsi Ali's personal feelings and views about people who believe in a god is not relevant at all! ....And if you read and understand my other posts.....or just my replies to you alone, and the kind of reaction and replies this thread got from some - I stress the word "some" - ....you'd see why I talked about "the many, many ways of muddying this thread"....understand my ramblings about the liberal psyche's penchant for aimless wanderings....of beating and going round the bush....the seeming inability to focus. Discussion is so painfully frustrating when one keeps trying to bring back someone who's prone to straying. At least I only "frothed" ......the computer is still intact.

Melanie, first let me explain about this one. My statement above was not wholly about you....it's more of a general observation on this thread. And no, you didn't do any high-drama or given in to hysterics. I should've made that clear. Felt good though. Like having a good sneeze! Well I could say the same thing about you! Why'd you think I ended up "frothing at the mouth?" See? Personal belief/faith is being forced into this discussion....I've said several times that this discussion is about Hirsi Ali's suggestion to fight against radicalization/jihadists! A possible solution to our growing problem with home-grown terrorists! But we are not talking about your everyday scenario here. This is about the global problem on radical terrorists! Why shouldn't the government get involved if this is a solution to the problem? According to Hirsi Ali, Saudi Arabia spends money on training Muslim leaders that are shipped back to the west! If a foreign government is getting financially involved to something that affects us....why should we tie our own government from helping? Her religion and non-religion sort of defines her. She had a terrible experience as a Muslim....she understand the culture and the doctrine. That is why she wants society to question the Quran! She is an Atheist now. Her suggestion to convert has nothing to do with her in-depth faith though.....it was given as a possible solution to radicalization. If she meant to talk about her own religious views.....I think she would delve more to explain why she chose Atheism over other religion. I am not deflecting. Your strong reaction to her suggestion to proselytyze...plus your remark about proselytyzing being "undemocratic," not to mention your concern to offend the Muslim communities were the reasons I asked you that simple question about the NYC mosque: Do you oppose it or support it? It is very relevant. I still think you to be among its supporters....I'm left to fill in the blanks you see, taking the clues from your statements and reaction to this thread. Anyway, it's up to you whether you want to set the record straight or not.

Furthermore, going to Bloodyminded's concern over Afghanistan....how do we teach other countries all about democracy when this confused liberal psyche doesn't even know about the true meaning of democracy. Or worse, they do know the meaning and yet they're willing to compromise and throw it away. So what's the message you give? Democracy ain't worth anything but spit! It means nothing!

What Melanie doesn't see is that the only reason I brought up Casius Clay (and also provided a link that features other converts to Islam)....was to point out the glaring double standard to her definition of DEMOCRACY. Melanie makes too much out of nothing really....regarding proselytizing in Muslim communities to TRY to convert Muslims (like as if we are going to do it by force), whereas Islam is allowed to do it. You don't see anything wrong about proselytizing....but MElanie and company does...otherwise we wouldn't be butting heads! Melanie dances around and writes about the feelings of Hirsi Ali about people who believe in God. Who cares! It's not relevant! Yet she refused to answer a simple question: does she oppose or support the NYC mosque being built near Ground Zero. She gives a song-and-dance squirming around it....well, it's relevant! MOSQUES ARE BEING BUILT EVERYWHERE WITHIN THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITIES.....EVEN IN PLACES THAT OFFENDS...WITH TOTAL DISREGARD IT SEEMS WHETHER THEY DO OFFEND OR NOT! I would bet that Melanie support the building of this mosque. I bet one of her strong reason will be RELIGIOUS RIGHT AND FREEDOM! She says in defense "Well Casius Clay was not involved in any terrorist act!" What baloney rebutt! Is that the point? No. As usual....the going around, anywhere and everywhere....except to the point! That's why Tareq Fath and company are admonishing society and government...."this is not the time to be politically correct!" And I agree. We've got a serious problem with home-grown terrorists! So, get serious! Never mind the cockamamee nonsense of the never ending merry-go-round that's just pure drivel! FOCUS! Melanie epitomizes what Hirsi Ali was talking about: The West is more engrossed on being defensive. To avoid at all cost...to even go out of one's way to the extent of suppressing democratic rights of others....so as not to be accused of being an Islamophobe! Melanie also demonstrate what Hirsi Ali was saying....confused liberal psyche All you guys have to do is go back to the very beginning of this thread and follow the flow of discussion....you'll see who's muddying the waters and distorting their opinion as they go along.

A guy named Patel (representing Avaaz) makes accusation on tv against Harper influencing the CRTC. Twice, Solomon asked him if he had any evidence to back up his accusation, and this Patel doesn't have any. He insists on information from sources and rumours. What I want to know is why this Avaaz is trying to censor and control information. Why is this group even given so much time - twice he's been featured on CBC - to express their un-democratic notion, not to mention to even make this attempt at dictatorial control! The media's gone soft....nobody strongly challenge this group! I don't care if it's garbage news or whatever - it's my right to choose what I want to watch!

Remember this post you made on the Tareq Fatah thread in Federal Forum? http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=3&t=16999&qpid=576571 You are bringing up Malalai Joya on this topic, an attempt to change the channel I guess...because Hirsi Ali is proposing what you consider is the "wrong narrative." Here is Hirsi Ali, a Muslim-turned-Atheist, prominent enough to be invited to sit on talk shows and be given various interviews....managed to get the media exposure....fighting for women's rights, childrens' right and oppression of minorities and the poor....being able to present her message before the world. But instead of being glad that she was able to achieve what you lamented Joya was unable to do (having been ignored by the media you say)....you try to discredit Hirsi Ali! Because she is spouting what you think is the wrong narrative! Which is more important to you? Your anti-Nato sentiment... or your fight for oppression... or fight for radicalization that will only bring to perpetuate this oppression...or womens' rights....or minorities....or anti-Christian sentiments.... Confusing, no? Hard to know where to really stand, no? Bloodyminded, ironically you only proved Hirsi Ali right by being the perfect example of what she was on about the confused liberal psyche: I rest my case.

You don't want to answer a simple question whether you approve or oppose the mosque on Ground zero. Muddy the water my foot! There's so many muddying of water on this thread. You think bringing up Hirsi Ali's personal opinion on faith is more relevant to this topic than the very blunt and direct question I put to you about your opinion on that mosque? And no, that's not what you said above. Let me refresh your memory. This is what you said: Oh, the many, many ways of muddying the water on this thread.... What is it about this liberal thinking and way of reasoning....this seeming inability to focus....this joy-riding off-topic with their silly little selfish whinings on their own faith (like as if the world revolves around it)...the high drama and hysterics.... ...what more, what is this penchant for twisting and squirming about...this obsession with going around and round the bush, anywhere and everywhere....except to the real point of a discussion? I don't want to go on and on and on in an never ending circus in the merry-go-round... Ironically Melanie, you only served to prove Hirsi Ali right when she said: I rest my case.

So what? Who's saying we should be up in arms over that? The point is there are those who convert to Islam! Just stating a fact. Why do you say we shouldn't proselytyze and try to convert Muslims into other religion...and yet you don't see anything wrong about them proselytizing and converting individuals to Islam. Is that your definition of democracy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_converts_to_Islam Anyway, mosques are built anywhere. In fact, they are allowed to be built even in places where they can serve to be reminders of painful, tragic loss like in Ground Zero. Btw, out of curiousity.....do you oppose the building of that controversial mosque near Ground Zero....or are you in favor?

I don't care about her faith! I'm talking about her suggestion which I think is quite good a strategy to fighting radicalization!

The idea is to offer other alternatives....other ideologies. Hirsi Ali may have singled out and endorsed Christianity....but that doesn't mean other ideologies aren't welcome to give it a shot. What about Islam proselytizing in our society....and converting people like Casius Clay into becoming Muhammad Ali....why is that okay? You mean they can proselytyze here and other religion cannot? Why do they have the voice....and we don't? Is there something wrong with this or what??? Is that your definition of democracy? Offering alternatives emphasize the freedom to choose! Offering alternatives emphasize the freedom of expression! This exercise emphasize the freedom of religion!

I've gone back and re-read our whole exchanges in the thread "Tareq Fatah." I suggest you do the same. There was a misunderstanding of some sort there....and I made myself clear on this post #34. As you can see, I am consistent with my message. I've repeated on this Hirsi Ali thread that I am talking about our situation in our own turf, here in the west (as Hirsi Ali had suggested).....not in Afghanistan or any other countries! That we need to address our own growing problem (radicalization/home-grown terrorists) here before we can fully help other countries.

This is like saying "I didn't suggest there was a rivalry BUT....." You are comparing the two. Please explain what you mean by this. You lost me here. Are you referring to me or to Hirsi Ali?

Bringing up the suggestion of Hirsi Ali does not dis-credit the cause of Malalai Joya. Hirsi Ali is prominent because of her background. It does not take away from Joya. There should not be any perceived "rivalry" between these two women. She is fighting for the same cause as Malalai Joya.

Let me ask you this: What do you have in mind? What do you think we should do?

As I told you, I've never heard of Malalai Joya until you brought her up in the other thread. I cannot say much on something I've never heard about. From what I gather she lives in a country where it's either Taliban rule or fundamental tribal rules....both resulting in the same fate for women! Foreign government are faced with siding with the lesser evil! I guess you'd rather hear me say that all foreign troops (us included) should get the hell out of Afghanistan....and believe me whereas before I supported that war thinking that we may help bring the people some semblance of peace...the corruption I hear about the government in power is making me re-think that position. I'm more inclined to support pulling out altogether. The only thing that makes me balk is the thought that the people (most especially those who supported us) will be abandoned and left at the mercy of the Taliban! When you read the news about a female student on her way to school getting beheaded....or acid getting thrown at female faces....families getting summarily executed for letting their kids get education or aid from foreign aid groups.....it is a tough call! What happens when we leave? I'll repeat again what I've said before....I feel sorry for her that she'd had death threats and gone into hiding. I am talking about Hirsi Ali and her suggestion on what the western society should do in our own western turf! One thing at a time. What better way than to start right here where we can have easier access, and better chance at success! We're talking about RADICALIZATION of the youth - the youth being the future generation! Stopping this radicalization will eventually lead to a better life for everyone, most especially women....like Malalai Joya!