PolyNewbie

From your site at 911 Myths, I found this statement: "Did firefighters abandon their fallen brothers to help real estate developer Larry Silverstein demolish a skyscraper? Conspiracist Alex Jones and other 9/11 “Truth Movement” leaders gather at Ground Zero and accuse Silverstein of murder and FDNY heroes of heinous crimes, lies and cover-ups. Do their claims stand up to examination?" No one is saying that firefighters put explosives into wtc7. No one is saying that anyone died as a result of wtc7 collapsing because no one was in or around the building when it did collapse. This is a set of false claims put forth by whoever wrote this site to attempt to falsely discredit the 911 truth movement.

I found this quite funny being a 911 truther. I think Bush just told it like it was in his first lines starting with "we have all worked hard to keep 911 a secret...". The establishment is like Bush says it is but he isn't the one in charge. Does anyone know what the title of this episode was ?

911 Mysteries: Part1 Demolition is by far the best documentary ever done on the events of 911 at the towers. This is a thorough piece of investigative journalism based on evidence and many eyewitness accounts and is very well narrated. This video is free on Google or can be ordered on DVD. Have you watched this Michael ?

You can take each one of the odd things about these "collapses" and explain them away individually but things never add up when you start putting things togather. Energy was there to creat the powder & eject these beams at the velocities determined + cause the building to pancake in the allotted 12 - 14 seconds ? Its a far reach because if you add up these energies using simplistic methods the result is close. These simple approximations undersestimate the amount of energy used. For instance one could calculate the kinetic energy of the beam being ejected out of the building (mv^2) but in that result not include the deformation energy of the impact that caused the beam to be ejected. Hoffman says that a thermo dynamic analysis shows an energy expenditure during the collapse of ten times the potential energy of the building. Someone else put up a set of claims refuting Hoffman based on poor assumtions, but that link, like your link has no name associated with the information. This is where you lose credibility - it shows that the sources you link to make your arguement have no credibility. Popular Mechanics was edited by Bushes cousin- a relation similar, I believe it was his first cousin. The above 911Myths site has no name associated with it. FEMA and NIST are not reponsible for their work legally. The work of FEMA and NIST cannot be used in a court of law. The usual authorities, fire marshall & FAA who should have conducted the investigations did not. They were replaced with organizations that could not be held legally responsible for their work. An official investigation took over 400 days to launch. FEMA is just a list of questions. The NIST analysis skips over some evidence that cannot be explained. It simply isn't worth mentioning according to NIST - things like the collapse of wtc7 in its entirety. A close look at all the things that support the official version results in a bad smell. If you look at the truth movement, you see a set of highly qualified and independent researchers who are willing to associate their names with their work and have exposed something at great risk to their careers. Some have lost their jobs. You cannot say that these people are gaining something from all this. There is no motivation on the part of these people to lie and make their own lives difficult in doing so.

Besides this arguement, you have to ignore a lot of physical evidence pointing to controlled demolition to believe that official version. - Beams that were obviously cut by explosives in pictures of the aftermath- 45 degree angles - cut just like they are cut in CD. - super hot pools of molten metal that stayed hot for months afterward. - sulfidization of beams - melted & burned cars from the parking lots - 200 ton pieces of steel sticking out of buildings like arrows - 500 feet away from the towers. - obvious CD of wtc7. - the video 911 Eyewitness shows explosives at the building base immediately preceeding the collapses - in agreement with what would be seen in CD. The NIST report even ignores a lot of this.

Thats not a very good arguement. The wiring and fixtures and everything else that needed to be done to demolish the building could be all set up without the people doing the work even knowing what is being set up. This could take years if they wanted it to. The explosives would be planted when they are needed by people in the know. Everyone else involved with the project may still not even know they were setting up the building for CD. They could have been told that the wiring was put in place for another reason entirely or for national security reasons. Ten or twenty people could be employed to place the explosives. They wouldn't even have to be Americans. If a magician can make it look like a woman is being sawed into four pieces in front of thousands of observers then the wtc's could be wired for4 CD with only a few people in the know. Scott Forbes and others describe a very unusual power shut down and the removal of bomb sniffing dogs from the buildings a week before the collapse.

For the building to collapse that way, every steel beam on each floor would have to collapse at the same time. If it was fire and heat that did it, one side would have collapsed before the other causing the top to tip off the building. This would have happened at some point early during the collapse if not during it. There wasn't enough potential energy in the parts above the crash to do the damage to the part below the crash. As far as the second law of thermo, its been ten years since I have been in school and I am an EE, so I'm not up on thermodynamics the way others are. I have heard plenty of people say that the collapse violates this law that are very qualified to say. There are some people with some impressive qualifications that say the collaps could not have been from an airplane crash. People like Fetzer, Hoffman, Bowman, etc are all very qualified to say this. Besides that, video recreations of accidents are done all the time. Why can't we see opne of the collapses ? answer: no initial conditions could make that happen. Only carefully placed explosives could make that happen. Besides this, wtc7 was obviously CD. wtc1 & wtc 2 were blown apart from the top down. They did not "pancake" that is obvious from the videos. If you don't see that the buildings were being blown apart then you don't want to. What are your qualifications to discuss this ? Do you have a great deal of experience dealing with non linear chaotic events or are you too speaking from an engineering degree ?.

Lets just say you and I dissagree on that fundamental point then. It was a huge coincidence that all of the floors collapsed at the same time that way then. Jeff King says that is a violation of the second law of thermo dynamics. Something is wrong. No way. Thats BS. Nothing collapses so "neatly" by itself. It had to be a contolled event to collapse straight down like that. Anyone can watch the video at www.wtc7.net. Jim Hoffman offers $1000.00 reward to anyone that can build a structure that will collapse straight down - with an even load applied !, Its impossible to do. The other neat collapses were due to uniform shearing forces and faulty construction. Even in those cases pancaking did not convert the building and its contents to fine pyrocrastic dust. Plus there is all those other points I listed. If you don't believe those buildings collapsed by CD then its because you don't want to believe it, not because of lack of evidence. There is *no evidence* that supports the official version except that planes crashed into the towers.

The debunking going on isn't really debunking. Popular mechanics hasn't debunked anything and Chertoff is a relative of Bush. Bushes brother was in charge of security at wtc's.

Interesting, what kind of calculation did you do to arrive at this conclusion ? Lots of evidence shows it was explosives that brought the building down: (1) Straight down collapse into itself - symmetrical- this instead of building top going over the side- ie path of least resistance. The top of the building should not have collapsed through the remaining parts (2) Really big 200 ton beams found sticking out of nearby buildings like arrows. (3) Hot spots found months later, partially evaporated iron beams. Burning fuel cannot explain this. (4) Straight linear cuts on basement beams. (5) Energy of collapse: energy pulverized over half the weight of the building, including phones, computers and concrete. The energy expended for all this would slow the collapse down to a time duration far greater than that oberved: 12 seconds & 14 seconds. (6) Collapse of wtc7 looked exactly like a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition and Larry Silverstein even said "...pulled the building". Experts observing video of wtc7 collapse say it was a controlled demolition. Anyone that has ever seen a controlled demolition can identify the collapse of wtc7 as such. (7) Tons of circumstantial evidence and coincidences such as inability of NORAD to respond. There are always excercises going on when they do terrorist attacks. (8) Completely pathetic and misleading investigation that strictly avoids key issues such as the collapse of wtc7 entirely. Most of this is in the movie 911 Mysteries: Part1 Demolition

Banking is how money (power) is created and it is always used to shape society. Banking has strong influence on the average person and does so when they start school. Central bankers direct society through foundations and think tanks (UNESCO). They also collect a sizeable portion of your income tax to pay for this. Our economy is designed to collapse. It must eventually happen and is a mathematical fact due to the fact that central bankers print and collect interest on every dollar thats ever existed. A dollar exists because it is borrowed from the banks. It ceases to exist when it is returned. In addition to the dollar being returned it also earns interest which also must be printed off. If we paid our debts we would collapse the economy because there would be no more money. We would still owe interest if we paid back the bankers on all the money that was borrowed - all money in circulation. Our monetary system operates on a privately owned debt based fiat currency and this is the most oppressive form of money. Governments could print it off and collect this interest instead of private bankers and the people would then own the banks.

The war on terror is just an excuse for a police state that is being implemented along with a central global government. This will be a fascist dictatorship with its own (UN) army. The purpose of all this is to prevent people from doing anything about what is going on once enough people figure it out. The police state has to be implemented before they comfisgate guns (before 2009 according to Janet Reno) and before they take your property away and give you a fraction of its value whenever it serves corporate intests (such as implementing too roads). The world is being reshaped by people like the Tri Lateral Commission, Builderbergs and Council On Foriegn Relations. The world is being reshaped to better serve the interests and goals of a few elites. This kind iof thing happens whenever a small group gets enough power to try it !. Wealth is highly concentrated and is mainly owned by central bankers although you don't see that in Forbes. Bill Gates, you, and me are all owned and operated by central bankers. Bankers are very rich because banking is highly profitable. When you lend someone money as a banker you create money from nothing and lend it at face value. A 25 cent piece of paper can be made worth $100.00 as easily as $10.00. When you have the power to do this then you have power to control society. No one can talk intelligently about Global politics without understanding the influence and operation of global banking. The problem is that the facts of money creation are a secret being withheld from most people. They sure don't teach it in our UNESCO schools. There is very good (15 minute video) called Money As Debt. Type in "Money As Debt Canadian Action Party" in google to find it. There are also many books, "Why Only In Fantopia" is 68 pages. The Creature From Jekyll Island" is another. Its a simple concept to learn - sometimes too simple. Banking operates is such a simple fundamental way that the complexities of the economy cover up something so simple that John Kenneth Gallbraith said " It is so simple that the mind may be repelled".

Philip Zelikow (from wiki) "Prof. Zelikow's area of academic expertise is the creation and maintenance of, in his words, “public myths” or “public presumptions,” which he defines as “beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community." In his academic work and elsewhere he has taken a special interest in what he has called “‘searing’ or ‘molding’ events [that] take on ‘transcendent’ importance and, therefore, retain their power even as the experiencing generation passes from the scene"

The USA is purposelfully being destroyed by Globalists. The USA and its constitution are too strong and could resist the movement toward Global government. This will be a fascist dictatorship ruled by central bankers and the intellectual elite. David Rockefeller states that he does have undo interest in the USA and that he is working against the interest of the USA. You can see Rockefeller quotes in Quotes Only. The last election was between the Rockefeller Democrats and the Rockefeller Republicans. This is easy to see and verifiable several ways (1) Open borders and implementation of the police state to terrorise citizens. We know that if the war on terror was real that Osama would have sneaked up through the Mexican border and killed everybody by now. (2) Destruction of industry - selling off heavy machine tools to China and allowing China access to American markets. This destroys the economy and workforce. (3) Illegal wars fighting "insurgents" who are really just school teachers, bakers, etc that are fighting against our professional armies to prevent a new gov of corporatism from taking over their countries. (4) Increasing national debt (5) Highways and natural resources being sold off to foreign investors at discount rates. The same thing is happening in BC with electricity generation. (6) Destruction of the constitution with HR 6166 (7) Merging with Canada and Mexico to form the new American Union- see www.spp.gov (8) Fighting wars they cannot win - Iraq. Iraq will soon be divided into three separate states as this was the end game of the orgiginal invasion plan. This will happen soon and be announced in mainstream media as a new plan. (9) Controls for the media and the financial district have gradually been lifted starting with Regan. This means more central power in the media and in the banks. Less competition. John D Rockefeller is quoted as saying "Competition is a sin". (10) No bid contracts given to corporations such as Haliburton to make the country go broke quicker. Thats just what I can think of off the top of my head. The Council On Foreign Relations has the goal of finding ways to destroy the country so that a central global government can be created. Corrently corporations are merging with government through secret meetings. Soon many people will lose their properties to corporations and they will not get fair pricing. Sections of the USA have already been signed over to the UN and US citizens are not allowed in large sections throughout the mid west.

A few people that were in the room with Cheney have come forward to say that in fact there was a stand down order. Its the only thing that could prevent the jet from being shot down - if it was a jet. The physical evidence of the crash scene shows that this target was not an airliner. That is plain to see from the fact that there is a little hole in the building and no bits of airplane on the lawn. Therefore that whole plane must have been sucked through that little hole - impossible. Also an aluminum fusalage doesn't crash through 3 thick concrete rings whilke the engines barely leave a mark. If they were interested in protecting the Pentagon they would have put fighters up immediately after the second wtc building was hit. In Oklahoma Murrah bombing, local news and cops reported three additional bombs in the building - how could that be ? You can see police reports on whatreallyhappened.com, and actual news reports in the movie 911: Road To Tyranny. Road To Tyranny is scary at the end where you see cops being trained that the constitution is a document written by terrorists. Don't just believe me - really watch it and see for yourself. I'm really only convinced by facts and I have read lots of the official story and visited the debunker sites. There are more people and they are more qualified and citing evidence to show 911 was an inside job when compared to actual supporters of the official version. How about Philip Zelikow ?, the guy that wrote the 911 commission report. Look him up on wiki. His only qualification is that he is a master of propoganda. Read it for yourself.

It is something to be proud of but that doesn't change the fact that Canadian electorate is largely unaware of the issues and that fact is why people died and had to go there. Canadian electorate should be ashamed. Our society has a habit of worshipping dead soldiers and considering live ones worthless cannon fodder. Thats what I am against.

I think that the globalists would want to see the Rockefeller Republicans lose the next one to the Rockefeller Democrats to placate the population.

I am just an EE and I recognised that the collapse was to orderly and expedient to be natural. It occured to me that it could be a violation of the second law of thermo dynamics. Jeff King is the one that explains it that way. There are many different ways of showing 911 wasn't scientifically possible according to the official version. st911.org and 911Research.org are good places to get arguements for controlled demolition based on physical evidence, as well as mountains of circumstantial evidence. The case for controlled demolition of all three buildings is hard to dispute. I do not believe that Bin Laden could get Norad to stand down and have those planes fly the way they did on 911 from a computer in Afganistan. The planes had to have flown with autopilots/computer assistance or guidance that would have to be prearranged. The maneuver at the Pentagon could not have happened without guidance or assistance. It hit the safest/strongest and least populated area of the Pentagon and the physical evidence of a plane even being there in many ways is non existent. Bin Laden is on the FBI 10 most wanted list and its not on there for 911. They don't have enough evidence to get an indictment for him on 911. I'm not going to get into a thermo dynamics arguement because I am not an expert and the other theories I have heard from people supporting the official version are flat out foolish. There are enough people speaking about the technical aspects of 911 that are more qualified than me.

Take a look at whatreallyhappened.com. They show pictures of that guy beside ones of Bin Laden. There is no way they are the same guy. Bin Laden died in a hospital in Pakistan in 2002 and so did the CIA guy that brought back that info and released it. If you look at the stats on heroine and the fact that these represent huge amounts of money and that money flow was restored as a result of the invasion you cannot ignore the possibility. One can never know for sure. So thats when you look at character - so would the USA invade a country for nothing more than pure profit ? Who really runs the USA ? Is it really George Bush or is it financial and corporate interests ? Who really decided that we should go to war ?

Minchael Hardner: That's a new one. (re Afganistan drug trade) No. Its an old one. Thats pretty much in the UN statistics as well.

Canadian Blue: The sad thing is that so many Canadian's died so that you could spout off this nonsense, its close to spitting on the graves of the soldiers that died in my opinion. I dissagree. I think the sadest thing is when people are over there fighting a war and getting killed because they are ordered to and people like you are allowing it to happen by supporting it without being aware of some important facts about the Afganistan mission. The most import fact is the 911 was an inside job done by the US gov and its the stated reason for us being there. In your line of thinking a soldier only becomes important after he is dead. We are not there to save little school children from the Taliban. Thats silly, naive, emotional and romantic. These do not make war. Money makes war and war is about money. Most of the population can be fooled into thinking that its some evil dictator without looking beyond what they see on TV. In reality we replace peoples governments with evil dictators so that they can put their people to work for our corporations. Drugs is big business in Afgnaistan and its not the farmers who make all the money. The Taliban squashed the drug production in Afganistan and US were in there a few months later. Drug trade now restored and that is supported by UN statistics. You should look at these numbers, there is a big dip and then the war starts and it returns to normal. There are other geophysical and strategic reasons for being there. None of them will ever benefit the people who are fighting the war. Plus there is a pipeline. Just because the Bush administration stole the election, Enron got away with almost everything, A police state is being put into place while there are still open borders with a fear of terrorism, 911 eveidence was removed before investigation of physical evidence could take place illegally, A few companies such as Haliburton getting no bid contracts without work actually being done, press blockage on Haiti, secret North American Union negotiations that most people still think is a conspiracy, and all this going on while the news is talking about Britney Spears. Everything is OK as long as you live in the box- if "they" say we should have war than we should have war( it wasn't an election issue but could have been if facts were what people were interested in). If you step outside the box and take a look at some "conspiracy sites" you will find not only a high degree of consistency with what they are saying are the relevant facts, but a number of qualified experts and highest level political insiders with required expertise saying 911 was an inside job. When you step outside the box you see a very different reality of global affairs that is quite a bit clearer and logical than what is on corporate controlled press. It is also more consistent with history.

Michael Hardner: The fact that people don't believe in mass mind control is proof that it exists ? -No, thats not what I said. see http://www.starfall.com/ Michael Hardner: The confession, and the video of Bin Laden with the hijackers doesn't sway you ? -That video was of a fake Osama Bin Laden. His eyes were too close togather, his nose was too long, he was 50 pounds heavier and looked ten years younger. Plus Osama never wears jewelry. Its a joke that people think that was Osama. The real Osama was mainstream on a few weeks after 911 explaining that he promised the Taliban that he would not do anything against the USA while in Afganistan. Also the Taliban said they would turn him over to USA to stop war. The US war in Afganistan is to protect their heroine trade from the Taliban who was burning the crops. Heroine production went down by 90 % just before the invasion. Shortly after it was restored. The US needs heroine money to conduct military coups and such without it being on the budget. Michael Hardner: You can assign a motive to the mafia, and everything they do follows logically from that. It all fits.9/11 doesn't work that way. The 'powers that be' would never attack themselves in order to get more power. How much sense does that make ? -Nero burned Rome to blame it on the Christians. Hitler burned the Reichtag to set the Germans against Poland. Its nothing new. Michael Hardner: As I have said, go to 911myths.com and you can see how 'Loose Change' and so called 'truth' videos actually contain more disinformation than any official story could. - Yes those kinds of sites are full of misinterpretations. The popular Mechanics book is a joke too. I heard an interview with the writers of that book. They said the bodies from the jet in Pennyslavania was buried underground from the impact and that they recovered all the bodies. Thats just one example. - Loose Change was made soon after the event. The best video on 911 is 911 Mysteries: Part1 Demolition. The official version contains misinformation - it doesn't discuss the evidence coverup & destruction, how the air defences were made disfunctional, who benefitted or the money trails. Did you know that the evidence from the Murrah building in Oklahoma is still under armed guard ?

Oh Oh, what are they going to do with Dubya and half the congress ?

qc1765:You dont' think he'd get arrested as soon as he arrived in Mexico? Unless he has a fake passport and plastic surgery, I doubt it. How would he even get to the airport without being caught by western troops? Same reason he hasn't been arrested in any of the other countries he has visited ? Even the Taliban volunteered to turn him over and the USA refused. Maybe a shave, fake gringo mustache and a faked accent would do it. He isn't on the FBI most wanted list for 911 because the FBI doesn't have the evidence they need to indict him for 911. Zero evidence and rumour is enough to convince a dumbed down public, but not the courts. Of course now that Habeus Corpus is gone, evidence is not needed to arrest and convict someone. Oh well, I guess that whole Magna Catra thing was overrated.

qc1765:How would bin laden get to mexico? Borrow a plane from the Bush family and fly ? I don't know how many ways there are to get from Afganistan to Mexico, but I'm sure that if he could engineer 911 from a cave in Afganistan that he could get to Mexico.