PolyNewbie

You are right but pointing out both a subsequent cover up and destruction of evidence and the prior stand down of the defence forces is evidence on its own. Given Silversteins accidental admission of the demolition of wtc7 and Rumsfeld accidentally admitting that the plane over Pennslyvania was shot down is evidence. Given the fact that a police state now exists and the constitution is gone kind of takes the wind out of the arguement that "they hate our freedom" doesn't it ? Besides Bayes Theorem (see Paul Craig Roberts) shows that the police state is not being implemented to protect us from terrorists. Not true, you would have to have a certain contingent in the armed forces to make sure defence mechanisms were shut down and you would need a certain amount of people to plant the bombs but we know from Scott Forbes and others that the buildings had a very unusual shut down prior to the attacks. That "junk" is some of the most highly placed establishment members and if you do not give OfficialsQuestion 911 Report any credibility then there is no point in argueing with you becauyse you will believe what you are told to believe by the television and there is no possible way of getting you to consider alternatives. (re cell phone calls from 30,000 ft). Actually months after 911 they were advertising a new system to be put into place in aircraft that would allow cell phone calls to be made.See CellPhoneCalls Currency supplies have doubled in recent years. Dow Jones should realistically be shown as half. Are you suggesting that war isn't profitable ? I keep hearing about this Islamic Fascism but no one has ever given any proof except for hit pieces in corporate media. I find the idea laughably rediculous. Is Osama planning a beach landing in the USA ?

"A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It’s impossible. … There’s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. … Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened and who’s responsible. … Who gained from 9/11? Who covered up crucial information about 9/11? And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place? When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it’s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney. I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen. Now some people will say that’s much too kind, however even that is high treason and conspiracy to commit murder." -Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced Space Programs Development "Star Wars Program" under Presidents Ford and Carter. U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech).

Lots of experts said it was controlled demolition. One controlled demolition expert had said it was obvious then a few days later had a 180 degree change of mind. I wonder how that happens. Popular mechanics is a joke and Chertoff is Michael Chertoffs (white house) cousin. Popular mechanics misrepresents statements made by the 911 truth movement and then pretends to refute them The NIST report DOES NOT INVESTIGATE THE COLLAPSE !!!! Forget about it. It is not relevant to how the buildings collapsed. They hypothesise that fire caused it when no fire has ever caused a steel framed building to collapse. They do not support their hypothesis with evidence. Evidence found by FEMA shows a possibility of controlled demolition in the sulfidization of beams. This is not investigated by NIST. The hot spots left weeks after the collapse is not investigated by NIST.

This is dead wrong. You can look up the structure of the wtc's yourself. Lots of thick heavy center columns absobed the gravitational load. The outer walls were to absorb wind loads. I wasn't built "like a tube" at all. As far as the A-10 goes, I doubt it was shot down by one of those but the evidence of the crash does show it was shot down by something - the plane did not "bury itself completely in the dirt". No bodies were found. The crash scene looks nothing like an airplane crash - it was spread over miles yet somehow buried itself in the dirt ?

Most of the steel never got past 250 deg, some got up to 500 degrees.

Evidence that cutter charges were used is plentiful. No doubt that some beams were cut by explosives. See 911 Mysteries: Part1 Demolition for pics of multiple cut beams. Also there were hot spots still in the wreckage weeks after the collaspe. This cannot be explained by a crash and isn't addressed in the NIST report. The NIST report does not talk about how thye buildings collapsed. FEMA shows evidence of controlled demolition that isn't explained in NIST.

That is absolutely true ! I have a bachelors degree in EE and I have argued 911 with many civil engineers. By and large they do not understand basic principles of science or they have just been told to go along with it. I'm inclined to believe the second hypothesis because some of the science I have heard civil engineers (or people that claim to be engs) wrt 911 is flat out rediculous. As a matter of fact, I have had civil engineers tell me that the building went straight down because "gravity points down" this was hailed as an incredible piece of logic put forth by multiple civil engineers and they laughed about it thinking how smart they were. Really. (they forgot there was a building in the way) Essentially thts true, except Donald Rumsfeld accidentally had a run at the mouth and admitted the jet over Pennslyvania was shot down. Larry Silverstein had a similar problem when he accidentally admitted that wtc7 was demolished. The whole idea in all of this is to start wars and destroy the US economy so that global government can be implemented. The US and its constitution is the biggest barrier to a banker sponsored world government. David Rockefeller admits to working against the interests of the USA to bring about a world government. The two partys in the states are the Rockefeller Democrats and the Rockefeller Republicans. Did you know that 80 % of the ordinance used in Vietnam was dropped on the South to bomb them into submission and let the States land in Vietnam to attack the North ? This happened before it was ever on TV. Did you know about Iran Contra and Oliver Norths pluralism in the war - selling arms to both sides ? Did you know that when Nicaragua had a peoples revolution and the Sandinistas were in power that the USA financed the Contra s to put a totalitarian government in place ? The Sandinistas were not terrorists the Contras were - trained by CIA What about the guys that supposedly hijacked the jets on 911, they were on CIA payrolls ! Did you know that the Taliban had practically eradicated poppy farming in Afganistan then shortly after we went in the trade was restored ? Look up UN statistics on heroin production in Afganistan.

The official story itself proves that it is a lie, countless people have been caught lying in congressional investigations around 911. The evidence was covered up and somehow the entire defence system in the USA was unable to respond to the attacks. Two insiders have testified that Cheney did give a stand down order. Lots of people know about 911, many high ranking officials from the establishment have come out to say it was an inside job and there are countless ways of proving it. I suggest looking at the movie 911 Mysteries: Part 1 Demolition. Its free on Google. The video 911 Timeline shows the official story to be impossible. As far as thousands of people knowing about the plan - not necessary. The best way to hide is sometimes in plain site because no one looks. You could certainly load the building with explosives without anyone knowing. Of course in normal buildings people always crowd around workmen doing maintainance and want to know exactly what they are doing... They wouldn't have to be US citizens planting the bombs either. We all know that the phone calls from the planes were faked because you could not make cell phone calls from an airplane at 30,000 feet in 2001. You couldn't do it from 8000 feet. "Hi Mom its Mark Bingham..." gimme a break.. As far as damage to the economy, well they are doing that purposely and on a much larger scale than the cause of 911. How many times do you need to be lied to before you stop trusting the liars ? Wasn't the lies around the war in Iraq enough ? How many innocent Americans died for that ? Why would they cause 911 ? (1) highly profitable wars (2) Implement police state so that North American Union plans can be implemented (3) put hard bases in Iraq and destroy its nationalist government to make way for gloabl government So why would Osama do it ? Is it because he hates freedom or just likes seeing Afganistan people murdered ? Or did he hate the Taliban and depend on the drug trade they were vanquishing and require Americans & Canadians to save the opium fields? BTW: There is new evidence, BIG EVIDENCE of 911 being an inside job comming out on infowars.com today. You have not seen this yet.

You are afraid of what I am saying because you know I can prove it I do generally - I mean that stuff about Bin Laden attacking multiple critical targets in the USA from a cave in Afganistan is just too much. Only an idiot would believe that. The FBI isn't even convinced. Wrt 911 I like to keep my mind open to what really may have happened while eliminating rediculous explanations.

Really ? How much money did they make last year ? How much went to the CFR ? What is the CFR doing ? How come they get all these tax writeoffs for the foundations - why shouldn't the American people have access to what they are doing in these foundations ? - since they are using what should be tax dollars to fund them. CFR stands for Council On Foreign Relations and its existence used to be written off as another conspiracy until people woke up to the fact that it has a big building and a street addess in New York. It was founded by David Rockefeller as all these other secret foundations being used to dismantle the USA and other Western countries.

No doubt to protect us from terrorists. I believe it was Clinton that tried this in '95. They all play for the same team. You should be able to figure that out from main stream news reports showing Clinton & Bush Sr togather.

"A tyrant... is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader." --- Plato,The Republic (circa 380 B.C.) They did Oklahoma to make an attempt to bring in all kinds of Police state laws. The effort failed. Bush attempted to bring in the laws similar to the patriot act after the attack. The 911 attack and the Oklahoma attack both had the same purpose. The Oklahoma attack failed because it wasn't big enough. They want the police state so that they can increase their own wealth while making the country poorer while preventing any kind of mass uprising. Bayes theorem shows that the police state will not help them catch more terrorists. This is well known amoung non TV ex establishment commentators.

Then there is wtc7, www.wtc7.net Nope, just the Shah of Iran, Suddam Hussein, Kennedy assasination, Vietnam war, Iran Contra, 1979 Russian shoot down of airliner carrying Larry MacDonald, wars in Iraq,Haiti, Nicaragua, Grenada, etc + Oklahoma & 911 were government conspiracies.

In addition to this, the official NIST report does not say what people think it says and most people would be very surprised about what the FEMA report actually says. You will find that the story on the news about what NIST says and what FEMA says is an "extention in reality". The FEMA report shows evidence of controlled demolition that is not addressed in NIST. The NIST report stops crtically at the point before the collapse. The collapse is not analyzed. In small multi million dollar court cases (and smaller) accidents are recreated through computer animation. This is a form of study, one builds a model, sets an initial condition and the model crunches through the collapse. The exact initial conditions are varied until the collapse happens in a way that matches the physical evidence. This is how they figure out what happened and its why all jet airliners get reconstructed after a crash. Why wasn't this done ? Or was it done and the initial conditions required to create the outcome could not be fudged? People say CD theories are rediculous, but nuclear technology has been developed to do exactly what was done at wtc1 & wtc2 back in the 50's or 60's- demolish a building. The technology was never used. No one will ever know for sure what happend at wtc1 & wtc2 because an unbiased investigation (like the Kennedy assasination) will never take place. The evidence is gone, perhaps some is being held in secret like the Kennedy assasination. The only certain thing about NY is that it had to be an inside job, how it was an inside job is a subject of speculation. If NY was an inside job then Pentagon must have been too.

The Pentagon issue isn't really important in any moral or technical aspects of 911. If it is true that a jet airliner hit the Pentagon then the case for LIHOP is more valid. "Let It Happen On Purpose" from a moral perspective is equal to Made It Happen On Purpose or "MIHOP". No one will ever know because the evidence is gone, the building was quickly fixed and the normal authorities that do these investigation on accidents were not allowed anywhere near the evidence. The evidence was being remove immediately after the accident. The government has been caught lying and dragging their feet on 911 and lying about wars. The people in the administration at a highly level (like Henry Kissinger & the guy that is replacing Rumsfeld, & Oliver North) are all known criminals. GHW was involved in the Kennedy case. I could go on and on.. My belief from seeing the evidence of the Pentagon attack is that it was a missile, and like many other sites that show the 'science' of the official version, your link can probably be easily discredited. But the Pentagon crash isn't important enough for me to bother. We can rip through 911 Myths if you want and I'll show how they are using misleading statements and making direct false statements to make their case. Furthermore, many of the links I have read discrediting the conspiracy theory have the authors of the work un named. How often to you have to be lied to before you catch on ? People have forgotten a simple moral axiom: Once a liar, always a liar. The NY attacks prove that it was an inside job.

Early photos right after the impact showed the lawn clean. Agents in suits were seen on the lawn picking through debris ( just another strange co-incidence ? ). Subsequent photos showed junk on the lawn. The hole in the Pentagon is not big enough to explain engines and landing gear, and for that matter, the diameter of a soft illuminum fusalage loaded with soft passengers, soft seats and soft luggage. This doesn't sseem like something that would go through a three foot concete wall in cartoon cutout style. What about the other two holes ? If 911 was an inside job this could have been taken care of by loading CIA agents as passengers and landing somewhere else. Or if 911 was an inside job it follows that these people could be disposed of in any way that you could imagine.

Can't you sue evidence ? How is this relative to the arguement ? What if I drew a comparison between Bush & Hilter and showed Bush is actually worse ?

CanadianBlue: So you are saying that the 100 or so people listed in my above post link must be crackpots because you know that 911 was not an inside job even though you have *no evidence whatsoever* to support your conclusions. You must think that Robert Bowman with two Phds in engineering and experience at the top of the establishment as a director of SDI in US government must be a crackpot because you know something he doesn't. Who are you trying to kid ? Are you just biding time to take another crack at holocaust denial ? Do you think Bowman was a crackpot because you think the subject of your above post was a crackpot ? What if I listed all the criminal activities the heads of the current establishment have been involved in as a matter of historical fact ? Henry Kissinger- multiple war crimes, Oliver North - Iran Contra Affair, Bush Jr lies about Iraq, Bush sr involvement in Kennedy assassination. How many times can you be lied to before you realize that you are dealing with liars ?

I didn't see any parts of anything on the photos of the lawn right after the crash. Subsequent photos do show debris, but if the plane hit the Pentagon where are the engine marks or holes in the building ? Why is the hole so small and how did a hole get created through three of those thick Pentagon walls where the light fusalage supposedly hit yet no damage where the engines could have hit. ? To me it doesn't look as if a plane hit the Pentagon, but the Pentagon attack was so covered up afterwards with the removal of evidence that nothing can be gleaned from this accident scene. Although many cover ups occured at the NY scenes there is still enough known evidence to prove MIHOP conclusively. I'm inclined to go with the unbiased experts on this: From http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquesti...ommissionreport "General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) – Commanding General of Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), 1981 - 1984. Also commanded U.S. Army’s Intelligence Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career. Video: "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army’s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War. I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, ‘The plane does not fit in that hole’. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?" http://www.undersiegemovie.com ... "

They want to remove protections from farmers - its part of their overall effort to destroy the country from the inside to convert to fascism and sell the country and its public asstets to the corporations and bankers. They want corporate farms and slave labour.

I beleive that planes hit the other buildings but a missile hit the Pentagon. I know 911 was an inside job from what happened in NY, the other locations do not provide conclusive evidence of an inside job but they do prove the government was lying. The fact that a missile or plane hit the Pentagon shows that it was permitted to by the governemnt otherwise it would have been shot down. I do not know what hit the Pentagon but think it was a missile. Where is there evidence of a plane hitting it ? Lots of highly qualified people to look at such things think it was a missile. There are eye witnesses to everything surrounding the Pentagon crash. If you wanted to say it was martians there is probably a witness for that.

No, I didn't. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Lets see some EVIDENCE to support your beliefs.

Look at Osamas nose and look at the imposters nose at Fake Osama Tapes (ignore the fact that one is black and the other middle eastern) Facial recognition experts do not have the ability to differentiate between two people like ordinary people. They program computers based on a simple universal set of facial co-ordinates. Why do you keep bringing the Holocaust into this ? Are you with the secret police ? Because you cannot win your arguement you are trying to trick me into Holocaust denial so you can have me arrested ? BTW I listened to that whole interview. The jet that supposedly crashed in Pennslyvania did not get "completely buried underground" like the government apologist said it did. He also lied about the coroner report and them finding all the bodies underground. Dylan Avery as a 21 year old held his own and then some against a seasoned scum bag that was much older. I wish I could get interviewed by some of these scum bags over 911. I would show a few people in this movement exactly how to handle scum bags like Meigs. I would have him for lunch and walk away laughing about it with absolutely no effort. The way to handle scum bags is to let them dig their own grave and don't help them.

I'm going to put that in another forum, its the funniest thing I have heard in recent memory. I hope you don't mind.

Voice recognition from UK proved it wasn't Bin Laden as well. I don't consider that important because I can tell the difference between the real Osama and the fake. No voice recognition expert ever said that was Bin Laden unless it was out of the Pentagon. What evidence ? All you provided is the confession. You do not even have anyone with expertise that agrees with you that is not dependent on the government for income. You keep talking about evidence but never provide any that cannot conclusively be shown to be propoganda. Multiple main stream books have this stated. See John Kenneth Galbraith's Money or Carrol Quigleys Tragedy & Hope. Bankers have always been in control.