Drea

And if it weren't for religious idiocy this would not even be an issue. Do you believe your president should be *insert your religious flavour here* or *insert that scary religion here* or do you think perhaps it would be better if the president (who represents all American citizens apparently) not have a religious affiliation? Booga Booga -- better vote for the Repubs there AW... if you don't you could be worshipping allah and wearing a burka by the time the decade ends.

No *sigh* troll-baiter... give her INFORMATION so she has some basis of knowledge. All she currently knows about religion, she learned from Imams. I would like to show her that there is a whole other dimension of knowledge that she can tap into. She wants to learn, she wants to analyze and question everything... good on her. You certainly are one bull-headed human being aren't you? Like a pitbull once you get a hold of a notion, nothing short of a dousing with ice water will get you off it. Try reading a book (other than romance novels and westerns) once in a while and you just might learn something.

It's rarely a case of the woman "changing her mind" as though she is deciding what to where that morning. You make it sound as though it's an easy decision. It isn't. Many women agonize over it and never forgive themselves. Many women abort because it just isn't feasible for them to have a child at that time. Many are very sad that they are unable to have that child. Of course there are always idiots... I knew a young woman (roughly same time I had mine) who had 4 abortions. Now that is stupidity. We labelled her a slut of course (that's what teens do!) I, luckily was so young that the thought rarely crosses my mind. I did not agonize over the decision, but many do. I have long ago forgiven my 14 year old self and I am sure I thanked my mother at least 1500 times throughout my life for standing beside me on that decision. Bottom line is that the option to have an abortion is legal and should stay that way. The rights of the human outweigh the rights of the human-to-be in my opinion (and the opinion of the law).

If I answer your question, will you answer mine? I should have clarified... I do not believe in the supernatural. I do not "worship" anything, including nature. I do have a moral conscience, but I wouldn't exactly call it a belief. As animals don't go around killing each other for the fun of it (human beings are just animals after all) I suspect (as it has not been studied and qualified, I use the word "suspect", because I don't "believe it", I suspect it) that we all have built-in moral compasses. Ever do something and then feel guilty? That's your innate moral conscience speaking to you. Many people think that the only morality humans have comes from an outside source (god). I think that our morality is innate, that it is born in us to feel guilty when we do something we consider "bad". Yes, there are people with no moral conscience - I consider them mentally handicapped. And if the only thing stopping you from killing your neighbour is the idea of "hell" then I suggest you see a shrink to determine why you feel no guilt. (General "you", not specific "you"). Many religious folks think if there was no religious "moral code" we would all be screwing in the streets and killing everyone on sight. These same people think nothing of killing or raping those they are afraid of (ie, those of different religions).

I do not "believe in" anything. I know it is difficult to understand but there are people who do not believe in divinity in any way. I also don't believe science is infallable. Used to be leaches were used by the medical community... seems their science was wrong, as we no longer use leaches. That is the point. When science is wrong, it changes it's stance -- when religion is wrong, it does not try to correct itself.

Another poster who wants to talk about me! How flattering... Now, any thoughts to add to the thread? Did you read the article at all? Do you believe in a god? If so, have you ever questioned why you have your belief? If you've never questioned your belief, why not? If you have analyzed and read every book on the subject and still believe... what drives your belief aside from the fear of not getting your promised afterlife? Funny that none of you naysayers will answer any of the questions I have posed.

Sorry Remiel, I am not understanding, please help me by clarifying... What is "the divine"? What proves to you that it exists? I disagree, when Pluto was found the scientists found evidence that there "ought" to be a planet there even though they could not see it. They could see the evidence of it (it ought to be there, as they could see it's affect on other planets) In my opinion there is only one "ought", we ought to live as humanitarians. Helping one another, not killing one another and saying it`s what we "ought" to do to get reward.

Religion is not warm and fuzzy -- on the contrary it is harsh and brutal. Even some guy was willing to kill his own child to satisfy the bloodlust of your "god". Another guy was willing to have himself tortured and killed in public to please that brutal "god". Yet, your "god" is benevolent and kind and you get warm, fuzzy thoughts from your belief that he is "walking with you". LOL, with the brutal reputation that he has, I'd be scared shitless if I were a believer (no wonder they believe, they are scared of the brutal bastard). You want warm and fuzzy, get a puppy. At least a puppy has a body temperature and soft fur. Much much more than your god offers. Your god offers "reward" to those who follow "rules" and "eternal torture" those who break the rules. I'll take the puppy thanks.

Just found this article... again, it supports my view (why would I link to an article that doesn't?) Excellent! Couldn't have said it better me-self. LOL

Anything, anything to add to the thread at all?.. or perhaps you would like to start a new one about me (flattery will get you everywhere LOL) Did you click the link regarding the book? It's called Genesis of the Grail Kings and is about historical lineage. Can you answer any of the questions I posed to you? 1. Have you read Revelations and do you believe it will happen? 2. Are you looking forward to Jesus' apparent return? 3. If so, what are you personally (as a true believer) doing to facilitate this return?

LOL I tried the ignore feature once but ending up clicking anyway! You'll never be able to resist the temptation of reading his posts (especially now that you've decided to ignore) ! His posts still show, but it will say "you have chosen to ignore this poster. click here to view post"... you WILL click. LOL I just scroll by or briefly scan those posters I cannot stomach reading. LOL

Professor Lynn also says men are more intelligent than women. Did you "know" that all along too? You don't consider that "bait"? If you don't believe Professor Lynn's thoughts/views/studies/whatever regarding the intelligence of men vs women, why do you find his thoughts/etc. regarding religion credible? I told you why... but you ignored what I said. I had never heard of this author until I found this specific link. It supports my position, so I used it. So... your problem with this is what exactly? That posters should research everything written by a specific author before linking to an article? Sorry, but I work for a living and don't really have that kind of time on my hands. Why not find that other article and start a new thread. I'd be happy to debate the workings of the male and female brain with you -- but that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand. "Troll bait?" ( a thousand times over) Gee. And you say religious people you know won't discuss their beliefs with you? Wow. Hard to believe. (repeat of a thousand times over) Grow up. Or grow a brain. Or preferably, both. This is your response LOL. Do you see an insult there? I never said your belief was "bad", I just said an intelligent, analytical mind questions belief. Obviously you are not inquisitive nor analytical. That's not a bad thing. The world needs people of all intelligence levels. Would be pretty boring if we were all the same. My sis in law is not analytical either, but she is a kind, loving person. We just don't discuss intellectual topics as they go over her head. On this forum, if you can't handle the debate, get out of the thread. No one is forcing you to post. Then they are not religious, but vaguely "spiritual". Not the same thing as pointed out already. It is not my fault that the higher a person's intelligence, the less likely they are to believe in a god. I didn't make it up. Nor did I give birth to all those non-believing intellectuals. So you are shooting the messenger here AW. Ok, prove it. Read this book and get back to me (see you in six months, there are some BIG words in there! ) -- you wanted an insult so badly that I gave you one.... you're welcome. Once again, it is not my fault. I am simply pointing out the futility of jumping through religious hoops. It's much more than that but I am not going to get into the topic of Warriors for Jesus or Armageddon in this thread. I will probably start another thread on how the religious folks think the end is coming and what to facilitate Jesus' return and how their nutbar beliefs affect all of us. THIS thread is about the level of intelligence of those who believe and those who do not. I notice by the capitalized G and H that you truly are a staunch believer. As a believer what are you doing to herald Jesus' return? Are you expectant? Are you eager to meet him? Is this a goal in your life -- to see the world annihilated? Have you read Revelations and do you believe it is true? I care because relgious nuts are going to try to bring on "Armageddon". And I have a son who I want to have a long life. I don't want him killed by some idiot who thinks Jesus is on his way.

You are trying to bait me into insulting you. I won't do it. I will, however, discuss the topic with you. In your opinion is accepting "what one is told" a function of a analytical, scientific, intelligent mind? Open-ended sprituality (believing in a "cosmic source" or "karma" or the "collective conscience") is not religion. Religion gives one a set of rigid rules to follow. The religious believe that not following "the rules" results in dire consequences. For some reason I have yet to discover, the religious believe that everyone must follow their specific religion's set of rules. They also detest criticism, analysis or debate about their belief system. IF their belief system was real as they think it is, then they would not fear its analysis.

They don't care Buffy. They just want an enemy, any enemy. All the better if they are of a different culture (booga booga!) and religious belief.

It's not that I don't believe it (how can I disbelieve something I haven't read?) it's just that it had not been brought to my attention. And I really don't believe men or women have "better" brains than one another... the book I'm reading doesn't look at one being "better" than another, just different. Did you know that women have better peripheral vision than men? But that men have better distance focus? You just keep trying though, don't you American Woman LOL Give it up already. I am not going to take your troll-bait. Those who entertain the notion of an "all encompassing god" rather than the Christian "do this or go to hell" one are not subscribers to religious dogma. They entertain their own "version", as do I. Real Christians (and *most all other religions) don't want people to think of an "all encompassing spritual feeling" but a very real, touchable god that judges people on their thoughts and actions. "Spirituality" is not religion... the dogma of "this is against god's will" or "god willed it" type of statements go well beyond a "spiritual feeling".

Exactly. And WHY are they not interested in listening? Because they might find out something that puts their alleged "afterlife" in jeopardy. (fear) Religious folks don't want their beliefs tested and analyzed, they just want their dogma accepted on "faith". And pulease.... do you think that every person who doesn't subscribe to some religious dogma is a chickenlittletheskyisfallingglobalwarmingcultist...? Jeebus already. The earth is warming -- that has been proven by scientific method (a temperature gauge!) Doesn't mean people bow down to worship icebergs does it. Frig. If it weren't for scientific, analytical minds you would not be reading this. That is real and proveable. We KNOW that your so-called god would never have given people the internet... heck he even allegedly scrambled everyone's language... your god doesn't want us to all get along does he? LOL

But science tries. That is really all we can ask for. Would the religious be open to analyzing, for example, the theory that we were created by aliens*? If not, why not? If the religion is true and we were created by a god, then they have nothing to fear from examination of their beleifs. *The alien theory is no less (and no more) plausible than an invsibile entity that can read one's thoughts. In fact, given the billions upon billions of stars in the universe; I'd say it's quite probable (probable is a scientific term btw) that there are life forms more advanced than us. It has yet to be proven but the probability is there.

I agree that *some* religious people find peace in their beliefs. And in the past I've even envied them for that. But as I grow older and wiser (lol) I find myself more peaceful, more accepting of life as it is without expectation of something at the end. I know some very intelligent people who are religious. They simply refuse to discuss their religion, but are analytical in all other matters. There must be a fear inside of them that keeps them from questioning it... of course, the fear of hell is pretty powerful stuff for some.

LOL I suppose. (not sure what you are getting at here... ) Intelligent people can't help themselves... they ask questions and demand answers. "Faith" just doesn't cut it for the analytical mind.

I don't know about you, but my parents came clean about Santa when I was about 6... the unfortunate part is that many people still have that same idea regarding a god. For example: we tell our children, "If you are good, Santa will bring you presents... if you are bad you get none." Religious leaders tell people "If you are good god will let you into heaven...if you are bad, you go to a burning pit of misery." How are these things different? They are not different. That is the point. Belief in god is no different than belief in a fat fella bringing toys. There is no Santa, you know this. So why do you insist that there is a santa/god who will either punish or reward you depending on your actions? Shouldn't people grow up intellectually and drop the santa/god concept once they reach adulthood? Of course, I have already stated that religion keeps people like children and this is simply more proof of that. I love it when someone proves my point for me.

Honey it's because I have an agenda. I want to educate the world... I want the world to realize that there is no pie-in-the-sky, all we have is today and that life is short and we should treat one another as human beings, not members of differeing skydaddy cults. As soon as my friend from Iran gets here (2010) I will be giving her every book I can find supports my view that there is no god.

I beg to differ. Because it's not only fanatical religious folks that close their minds, it's the so-called "moderates" that refuse to accept indepth analysis of their beliefs. Why does one believe there is a god? What led you to this belief? What do you think would happen if you questioned the very existence of god? Answer these questions to yourself, and try to be honest with yourself. If you say "because that's what my parents believed" or "I felt god's presence" or "I don't want to go to hell"... you are reguritating what you have been told.

Perhaps the conservatives would be happy if all those people in low income jobs just quit and went on welfare so they could stay at home and raise their children. How about it conservatives? How about if each and every single mother gets $2000 a month so she can stay home OR We can give her $600 a month for daycare for a few years. Which would cost the taxpayer less? This IS a test!.... I know math and intelligence aren't really important for cons, but do give it a try. Here is the question: Is $2000 greater than or less than $600? No asking liberal family members - that would be no fair!

The righties are frothin' because the "HELP CODE ORANGE THERE IS A TURIST QUICK GET THE DUCT TAPE (most think it's Duck tape LOL)" is no longer working. The only people junked out on fear are the rightwingers. But no worries I expect another false flag attack sometime before November. The puppeteers are not going to allow a President who is not part of "the Family"... The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power Get ready for Armageddon... your junked-out-on-fear leaders/heros believe in this crap. They are frothing at the mouth to see Jebus and will nuke the earth to "facilitate his return". Delusional people in postions of power...

Funny, I've always thought that saying was bastardized and should be the other way around. Children are not compassionate towards others (socialist) they are selfish and think the world revolves around them (because they are children). Once a person grows up they should have developed some compassion through life experience. But sadly many people remain selfish children throughout their lives. Belief in religion means believing what you are told, not questioning it. Have you ever memorized a biblical passage and passed it off as "knowledge"? LOL Memorization is not intelligence. Hell my budgie can repeat what I say... doesn't mean she is intelligent, just that she can mimick what she hears. Actually, come to think of it... she is a good deal more intelligent than some people.... LOL