Signals.Cpl

That is so convenient, I'm telling you the facts, its just that they are in a different language to verify them... You cant support any of your claims, and majority of your claims are easily disproven, if you cant prove your position maybe this forum is not for you... you might want to go to a Ukrainian or Russian forum.

So you are saying that your position is impossible to prove so I should provide evidence to disprove it? Are you aware how debating is done? If not I can explain it to you. Go to a military school that teaches that job? I don't see how a major exercise is necessary to train the crew, if there is a budget crunch live fire might not be possible but it does not mean that there are no trained crews it means that they are training through other means.

And what exactly does this prove? I got the gist of the back and forth but I'm wondering which of your opinions this is meant to support?

I think that you missed the point, if I'm not mistaken the National guard is now working as part of the Military so it makes it an army base... Prove it... prove that noone in the Ukrainian military since the beginning of this mess has deserted... Seems to me you are short on facts but heavy on opinions... funny how you make statements you cannot prove and expect someone to disprove them...

I cant prove that a rebel can operate the Buk, just like you CAN NOT prove that they can't operate the system.... And what do Buk exercises have to do with anything?

Do you think that the separatists are idiot monkeys who cant fix a vehicle? Or that if there was a vehicle captured that there would be missiles nearby?

No I cant drive a tank, because when I was in the Army I was trained as a signaller, but give me a radio and I am a god... Do you understand how the military works? When someone is conscripted they are placed in a trade it could be anything from Rifleman to clerk and everything in between. You don't need one person to know all of those systems, you need people who are trained on a certain piece of kit which you would get should you have a large enough population. Do you have Proof that there were never more than a few thousand and that they are all dead now? Do you know every single member of the separatists? If you do I think the Ukrainian military might find you pretty useful.

Luckily I understand enough Russian to get by... so send them over...

http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/rebels-capture-three-bases-in-eastern-ukraine-from-government-troops/ http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27693781 Only resently they lost a bunch of bases, with plenty of equipment...

Care to present that evidence, not that I don't believe you or anything....

Seems to me it is you who lacks the idea...

How are you so sure of that? Do you have proof that no conscripts were ever trained to operate that weapon system? That no one in the separatist region was ever trained on that system by the Ukrainian military? Or that the weapon system crew didn't desert to the separatists? Soon enough you might have to actually post some evidence.

You do realize that there are millions of individuals with military experience due to conscription? Not all of those conscripts and former conscripts are on the side of Ukraine so I doubt it would be too hard to find qualified and trained individuals to man any captured weapons.

Entire Ukrainian units have surrendered and a number of bases have been overrun what makes you so sure they could not have captured?

How do you know it was a Russian Buk system and not a Ukrainian Buk system? After all the separatists have overran a number of Ukrainian bases.

Who do you think is going to stop Russia? Do you think Europe is in a position to stop anyone?

I dont know if you notice that both sides are using "Russian" equipment... the BUK system is not American or Canadian its Russian.

How are you so sure that the separatists did not capture the weapon system? They seem to be doing pretty well in capturing Ukrainian equipment.

There is one American as far as I know. The US is getting involved because someone shot down the aircraft and they may be in a position to identify said group.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ukraine has not claimed they don't have the capability, they have stated they didn't have the units there because the separatists have no airforce. The question would be wether the system came from Russia or it was captured from Ukraine.

Why would Russia have a reason to shoot down this aircraft? The most likely scenario is a separatist group shot down the plane thinking it is a Ukrainian military plane. They were talking about it on the news that the Separatists claimed to have the BUK system and then released a statement that they had shot down a Ukrainian plane which was backed up by Russian media only to be deleted once it became apparent that the plane was a civilian aircraft and the separatists also deleted their claims of having captured a BUK system. What does that say to me? It says the "separatists" jumped the gun without having the ability to distinguish between military and civilian aircraft and once they learned they shot down a civilian aircraft the back peddling started.

Just because one plane was shot down does not necessarily mean that every other unexplained disappearance is a shoot down as well. What evidence exists to support that theory apart from the incident in Ukraine.

If the government begins to treat a large portion of its population as 2nd rate citizens people will lose trust in the system. As I said it is a small jump from terrorism to murder, rape, assault etc... the same argument that could be used to get this approved can be used for every subsequent amendment after all a crime is a crime so whats to stop it from happening? Its not enough to say the system will take care of any problems especially when individuals commit to actions that are counter productive. This solves none of the problems but adds a number of other problems...

And you can guarantee that the checks and balances will work? Or is this more of a hope that they will work?

If you were in my place you would very likely feel the same. If the restrictions were made harder then by all means Canada as a country can make them so in order to bring in the best immigrants to become citizens, but once they become citizens they are equal in any way shape or form to Canadian born citizens. Then by all means you should dish out the same punishment to all. What kind of loyalty does this legislation give to immigrants who become Canadian citizens if their citizenship is not equal to that of Canadian born individuals? Why should I risk life and limb for a government that says I am second rate citizen? Once you become a citizen for better or worse you are Canadian. Loyalty is a two way street, if you don't understand that simple concept I cant help you. So you could argue that we should boot out immigrants who commit murder, rape, assault etc... right? Right now the big thing is terrorism, if in 10 years it is prison crowding and someone comes up with the idea to boot "citizens" out, its only a small jump. This creates a us vs them mentality, cant expect any loyalty from individuals if the country treats them as 2nd rate citizens, and all of this to cover up the problem rather than solving it since it seems to me a lot of the Canadian terrorists are Canadian born so ultimately you are saying if you are Canadian then we will deal with you, if you are "Canadian" then f**k you you are not one of us.