GWiz

That's what I like about you my friend... You're totally consistant... You want it both ways every TIME...

sssssh, somebody might hear you, that's a secret you moron... Charlottown's been patrolling there a week... CF-18s on tap for tomorrow... When are your 8 F-16s due? BTW - what was the point again?

Thanks... I knew you'd come through for me... Even if it makes you out a liar... Don't you feel ashamed being forced to admit to being a liar by a mere "rookie"? Glad we finally agree that the US is damned if it does, and damned if it doesn't, exactly as I stated in the first place...

Awww, come on, give your close "allies", those much beloved (especially by Bushies like you) "Frenchies" a little credit for taking the lead here, eh... You don't call them "freedom fries" anymore, do you?

Somehow Vietnam, Israel, Granada, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Balkans, and even Libya come to mind... What did I miss? Seems one gets a very limited view at any give TIME looking thru a periscope, eh... Sorry, been to both, Cabbage and Garburator, no simularity at all... Not really... Still as irrelevent to this thread as the first TIME you mentioned it to DISTRACT from this thread...

While I think a CON majority has gone pretty much out the window it's also simply campaigning on the back of taxpayers which has become a CON trademark for fiscal irresposibility just like the $26 Million of self serving, tax payer paid for, ad campaign...

You know my friend, whether you realize it or not, you're actually making my point for me... Taking immediate and direct action when "bad guys" went really bad, for good or bad reasons, was pretty much an American "trademark" of the prior to GWB era... Post GWB America is damned if it takes unilateral action (with or without support from other nations), (GB too for that matter like in the Falklands), as it did prior to GWB, to now taking the brunt of the blame for not taking immediate action in a case like Libya... That's my point... Thanks for illustrating it so clearly once again... Easy, Martin was a stupid ass for the way he "liked" Ghaddafi Duck, and I told him so in no uncertain terms... He still had nothing to do with taking Ghaddafi off the hook, that was 100% at the behest of George W. Bush to show the world how well his Iraq "policy" was working... He no more was no longer a terrorist as there were stockpiles of WMDs in Iraq... "Stupid is as stupid does", applies to Martin but it applies to George W. Bush and Tony Blair 100X as much... Happy now?

Be glad to... Here's the context of why I went the Geothermal route... I had a older natural gas furnace with maybe a 70-80% efficiency rating and a 5 yr old central air conditioning unit... To do an upgrade to high effeciency (95% + efficiency) furnace and a new heat pump type air conditioning system would have cost me in the $9-$12 thousand range and I'd still be using Natural Gas, just about 20% less of it, plus the saving on electricity would be very minimal if there was any saving on electricity at all... The total costs to go the Geothermal route was about $20,000.00, or roughly double the high efficiency Gas heating and cooling route... That's where Federal and Provincial Grant money came into play... The Federal Liberals had a grant program in place, which the CPC kept in place for 2 years when they were first elected to help homeowners upgrade their homes with better heating/cooling, upgrading insulation, etc., in the case of converting to Geothermal that Fed Grant was $3500.00... Manitoba came out with a Tax Credit which in my case amounted to just under $1500.00... Combined it reduced my cost to do a complete conversion to about $15,000.00 or roughly $5000.00 more than the High Efficiency Gas route... That also included switching to an Electric Hot Water tank to totally eliminate all Natural Gas from my home... Bottom Line... My monthly average cost for all electricity, and heating/cooling my home prior to converting was roughly $200.00 per month total... My January thru December (very rough winters) anverage monthly cost for everything 2010 was $78.00 per month total... A per month saving of $122.00 per month... Added benefits are much lower cooling costs in the summer because I use much less electricity and by drawing the heat out of the home rather than forcing cold air into the home the Geothermal also helps heat my hot water that I use... The savings in winter are obvious since only a slight increase in electricity (the pump and much larger forced air fan) has replace 100% of my Gas heating... I keep my home at a constant 21.5c 24 hours a day year round set on "circulate" which means every 20 minutes the heat pump runs to exchange the air in my house and maintain a VERY constant temperature... I truly love not getting a gas bill and my home has never been as totally comfortable as it is since I changed over to Geothermal... What you do need is some decent space on your property to put in Geothermal... In my case there were 16 - 60ft. deep holes drilled spaced out and connected by 3 - 5ft. deep by 4ft. wide trenches to put the flexible PVC (the stuff that lasts 100rds of years in landfills)piping in... Enough dirt was moved that my back yard looked like I was digging a new basement... Each case is different and the CONS killed all the homeowner grants switching them to corporate grants under their "stimulous" program, so it's not quite the deal I got when I did it... It makes a difference... If you have more questions let me know...

Where did I say it was? Having said that, this is however a fact you can't ignore no matter how much you try > There is no such thing as a "war on terror", there never was, as Bush Jr. proved conclusively back when > Muammar al-Gaddafi : Bad Policy decisions by US and UK - Over the past 20 years Muammar al-Gaddafi has not changed. The only thing that has changed is how he plays the international political game. George Bush and Tony Blair have very bad reputations in their own countries and they are just about to get worse. In the recent uprising in Libya, all the skeletons that George Bush and Tony Blair put into the Libyan closet are now coming out. The stream of horrible decisions to forgive past offenses of Muammar al-Gaddafi and to grant him membership in the interntational community of trading nations is now making its way to global nightly newscasts. To learn just how bad these decisions were, first take a look at the resume of Muammar al-Gaddafi concerning terrorism and International crimes. - I assume you know that apples and oranges taste different... Maybe not since you seem to think they are the same fruit...

I made this thread not because of any kind of anti-USA sentiment, the opposite in fact... I was trying to point out the dilema the US faces with a country like Libya in particular but allso pretty much any country in the North Africa/ME region... Regardless of what Obama, or any president of either party does, it's a no win situation... In my opinion, and it's just my opinion, the day the Arab leaque asked for a no fly zone, NATO as is their mandate, should have done what they are doing now... The delay of a week makes a big difference because of the loses the rebellion suffered in that interim... And I don't blame Obama one bit for that because his hands were tied and they still are when it comes to taking any sort of military action in the region... Unfortunately people like Ghaddafi know it too, which is why he was as brutal and ruthless as he was/is...

<my comment copied from another thread and appropriate here> Gotta love how the NDPers on MLW follow the same old script every TIME no matter what the thread's actually about... "Hammer the Liberals at all costs no matter what the Harper Regime does"! "It's our only hope of maybe gaining another meaningless seat for the NDP even if it means putting the CONS back in power or selling out any 'values' the NDP claim to have." - Jack Layton & the NDP's philosophical imperitive. ....................................................................................... What's even more funny is that with every anti-Liberal post made by NDPers here on MLW it confirms what all politically knowledgeable people already know about how the NDP operate... The NDP have no principles what-so-ever... On the other hand the Harperites here are naturally dragging up every questionable thing any Liberal has ever done to obscure their own obvious, plentiful and significant shortcomings, which is almost as laughable... But then who can blame them when they both have nothing to offer...

Interesting segue you made there...

If Saddam was so contained how was it possible for him to get all those WMDs Bush and Co. so liked to talk about to "justify" the invasion of Iraq? I see a lot of smoke and mirrors being used in your argument and very little fact... A well known Bush/Cheney trait... Living up to your handle? OK Sonny... But watch out for phantom punches; they can take a champ down quickly... You look and tell me which ones passed and what was really in them... If you dare... But he can't... See Yemen, Bahrain, Syria for starters with more to come, then there's Iran waiting in the wings watching every move... Or can't... Too late, I'm sure he'll try, but it's still too late, Ghaddafi has already won... Just as I said at the outset... http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18306&view=findpost&p=641446 Thanks to George W. Bush the US/"west" is already damned in the case of Libya along with whatever follows in other countries in the future... Sorry, I don't like it either, but that's just the way it is, as all of us will see soon enough...

OK, lets... Correct... 1.5) Saddam Defeated in Kuwait... NATO allies +, including Canada, (thousands of captured Iraqis urged it too) urge Bush Sr. to "finish the job" and remove Saddam Hussein... Bush Sr. and the American public have no appetite for that kind of war, nor does the UN-UNSC even though SH torches Kuwait Oil Wells as a parting shot... War over, Kuwait pays out billions to compensate "allies"... 1.75) GWB later uses "unfinished business in Iraq" as one of the reasons for Gulf War II... USA only, UN others don't care... Covered in 1.5 and 1.75... Correct... Clinton learned from events post GW I... US Republicans outraged because Clinton "pulled it off" without US or Allied casualties... Ultimately a "peoples revolt" ended it and brought Slobodan Miloević before the World Court for war crimes... Yugoslavia ceases to exist as a country... 3.5) The USA "kinda" elects George Walker Bush as President... 3.75) Let's not ignore 9/11 and several other things in between completely, OK? It mattered... OK... The UNSC never signed off on it so in essence it was a US operation that NATO, strictly because of the sympathy for the US because of 9/11, joined the US in... Truth be told, invading a country because they didn't turn over a person, Bin Laden, wouldn't have been possible anywhere but against the generally hated Taliban the rulers of Afghanistan... 4.5) The US and allies fail to "get Bin Laden"... By backing the Northern Alliance, Afghan Rebels that opposed the Taliban, the US and their reluctant (Canada and GB being exceptions) NATO allies were thus justified as NOT being an unjustified aggresor invading a sovereign nation, which in fact is exactly what GWB and the US did... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present) 4.75) Being that Afghanistan was a Muslim nation, extremist anti-USA/"west" muslims and a greatly fractured assortment of muslim terrorist groups united in a common cause to bring down the USA/"west"... The first step in what has now become a no win situation for the USA/"west"... False! And you know it... A "coalition of the willing" is not representave of anything or any common entity like NATO or the UN... In fact it's the invasion of Iraq and it's consequetial fallout that now ties the hands of the United States in taking appropriate actions when needed... Like in Libya 3 weeks ago, no president can nor should take unilateral actions as GWB did by invading Iraq... Obama had his hands tied by George W. Bush, which is what I state clearly in the subject matter of this thread... ANY US President must now ensure that they are no longer seen as leading any international effort regardless of consequences... Ergo, the United States is damned if they take action and damned if they do not...

OK, since you say so, your smarts are in your ass... I can accept that, especially regarding this thread... Maybe it would help is you quit sitting on you smarts... Just sayin'

Read it and try to understand it; that way you'll get some dignity for krisakes... http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18306&view=findpost&p=641608 You're smart enough to know that playing ostridge like you're doing doesn't make facts go away... If in doubt read my sig line... You can argue with the points I made; but you can't change the past or the present, nor in some cases like being "damned if you do and damned if you don't" because of what GWB did, even the future... And that my friend, Martin didn't have a thing to do with...

Did I put this thread in the wrong category, I better check... Nope, United States Politics, right category... I'm surprised though that you thought Martin had as much power as George W, Bush... I would have thought that you of all people would know better... In fact, seeing it's you, let me check > Muammar al-Gaddafi : Bad Policy decisions by US and UK < nope no mention of Martin at all...

I noticed a big "uptick" here on MLW of anti-Liberal threads by both Harper Regime supporters and NDPers... Kinda tells the real story of any upcoming election, doesn't it? Bring it on! The more the better...

Gotta love how the NDPers on MLW follow the same old script every TIME no matter what the thread's actually about... "Hammer the Liberals at all costs no matter what the Harper Regime does"! "It's our only hope of maybe gaining another meaningless seat for the NDP even if it means putting the CONS back in power or selling out any 'values' the NDP claim to have." - Jack Layton & the NDP's philosophical imperitive.

My compliments on your first thread and post... Well thought out subject matter... My 2200 sg. ft. living space 5/3 home in Winnipeg is 100% renewable energy... Geothermal heating and cooling and public utility Hydro Electric... Love it... 0 carbon footprint... Cheap too in the long run... My future plan is to eliminate the Hydro by replacing it with my own wind turbine(s) or a wind/solar combination... I'll need to consult with and electrical engineer to figure out what's best for us with the shortest payback period... Since the Geothermal unit is Canadian made in Ontario, as well as all the local labour that was employed to install it, my "going green" (which incidently wasn't the reason for getting Geothermal) certainly is a great benefit to the economy at every level...

WOW! Right on the money Saipan... I'm impressed...

The Bush Legacy continues > Gaddafi defies West and pushes forces into Benghazi REBEL CITY DOUBTS WEST - Benghazi residents were angry at the West's delay. "Europe and America have sold us out. We have been hearing bombing all night, and they have been doing nothing. Why? we have no one to help us but God," said Hassan Marouf, 58, standing outside the door of his house in Benghazi. "Us men are not afraid to die, but I have women and children inside and they are crying and in tears. Help us." - Long a student of Sun Tzu Gaddafi, as he long ago outlined in his Green Book, continues to outsmart "western civilization" and is now proving that, thanks to none other than George W. Bush, that the "west" is little more than meaningless rhetoric when it comes to fighting terrorists of any stripe... Never before have ruthless Dictators, whether US backed or not, been more empowered... There is no such thing as a "war on terror", there never was, as Bush Jr. proved conclusively back when > Muammar al-Gaddafi : Bad Policy decisions by US and UK - Over the past 20 years Muammar al-Gaddafi has not changed. The only thing that has changed is how he plays the international political game. George Bush and Tony Blair have very bad reputations in their own countries and they are just about to get worse. In the recent uprising in Libya, all the skeletons that George Bush and Tony Blair put into the Libyan closet are now coming out. The stream of horrible decisions to forgive past offenses of Muammar al-Gaddafi and to grant him membership in the interntational community of trading nations is now making its way to global nightly newscasts. To learn just how bad these decisions were, first take a look at the resume of Muammar al-Gaddafi concerning terrorism and International crimes. - As the Libyan farce plays out, Yemen, Bahrain, Syria and other muslim countries, on BOTH SIDES of the "conflicts" watch... What will they see? What will terrorist groups, like Al-Qaeda, world wide, learn from the Bush Legacy when it comes to making decisions involving very urgent tough choices? What real "power" do the UN and/or NATO really have if they are ignored? What will this mean for the futures of Afghanistan and Iraq? How will the Bush Legacy now be interpreted in places like North Korea and Iran? Obama learned this lesson the hard way, although it's always been there since George W. Bush made the fateful decisions to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to go after INDIVIDUALS and not regimes or countries; Damned if you do, damned if you don't, is exactly the forseeable and expected outcome... However Libya turns out in the long run... Whether Gaddafi lives or dies... The "bad guys", just as they did on 9/11 2001, have won again... Remember that as you watch the world's economies...

You're entitled to your opinion... So Ghaddafi wins once again... The Bush Legacy has born it's fruit...

Libya: Obama tells Gaddafi to withdraw or face UN-backed air strikes - He said this meant: • All attacks against civilians must stop. • Gaddafi must stop his troops from advancing on the rebel stronghold Benghazi, and pull them back from Ajdabiya, Misrata and Zawiya. • Gaddafi must establish water, electricity and gas supplies to all areas. • Humanitarian assistance must be allowed to reach the people of Libya. "Let me be clear: these terms are not negotiable. These terms are not subject to negotiation. If Gaddafi does not comply with the resolution the international community will impose consequences and the resolution will be enforced through military action." - 3 weeks ago a nationwide uprising happened in Libya overcoming all traditional tribal rivalries and had the people of Libya speaking with a single voice for Ghaddafi to leave... Today that uprising has been reduced to a single tribe of disidents clinging to one city and a small region of Libya by Ghaddafi military forces supplemented mercenaries and segments of the Libyan people "loyal" to Ghaddafi... Today, HOW will the UN/International community/US-GB-France/etc. ENFORCE anything Obama or any other leaders say? How can they remove Ghaddafi from power? I think it's already too late... While the UNSC resolution may prevent the immediate slaughter of the people entrenched in Benghazi and a small surrounding area and perhaps even allow aid to desperate and embattled "forces" opposed to Ghaddafi, any sort of "long term" solution in Libya died weeks ago... IMHO of course... Kinda reminds me of the "Northern Alliance" vs Taliban situation in Afghanistan circa '01-'02... Just Sayin'

Well, it certainly wouldn't be the first TIME the CONS and the NDP have formed a coalition would it? Of course there's the "joker" in all of this, namely the BLOC, Harper may decide to buy them instead of Layton for a mere $5 BILLION in "compensation" for things like the ice storm and harmonization of the sales taxes... Hmmm, a CON-NDP-BLOC coalition to take out the Liberals, all 3 parties get exactly what they want at little to no "cost" to themselves, not likely but hardly beyond conception is it?