Feds to try to axe citizenship of overseas Canadian terrorists: Kenney

[PIK]

Canada should consider revoking the citizenship of dual nationals who commit acts of terror abroad, says Immigration Minister Jason Kenney.

On Wednesday, Kenney said the Conservative government would look at expanding a private member's bill introduced last summer by Tory backbench MP Devinder Shory.

Bill C-425 would give government the power to revoke the Canadian citizenship of a dual national if they commit an act of war against a Canadian Forces member abroad.

Canadian citizens are currently suspected to have been involved in two terror attacks overseas — in Bulgaria and in Algeria.

Kenney said the government should consider working with Shory to expand the legislation to include provisions that would consider acts of terrorism committed overseas as reason to revoke the Canadian citizenship of dual nationals.

"Canadian citizenship is predicated on loyalty to this country and I cannot think of a more obvious act of renouncing one's sense of loyalty than going and committing acts of terror," he said.

The federal government currently only has the power to revoke citizenship in those instances if their passport was acquired through fraud.

Interim Liberal leader Bob Rae slammed the suggestion as a "knee-jerk response."

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/02/06/feds-to-try-to-axe-citizenship-of-overseas-canadian-terrorists-kenney

And leave it to the libs to disagree. I think if the libs had thier way everybody in the world would have a canadian citizenship. I wonder if the media party will ask the boy wonder what he thinks. I doubt it. The libs have sunk to a new low.

[shortlived]

Doesn't the Criminal Code enshrined terrorism act actually require charges to be placed against them.. if their citizenshipis revoked they "loose the ability to be charged" under the CCC. Odd it is like they are just removing the treason and terrorism charges against the people? For the terrrorism and attacking CF personnel.

Odd.

What is the rationalityon removing the criminality of the act, and revoking citizenship?

Also why should a foreign court be seen as acceptable proof of a crime or act being committed? Especially countries that openly torture prisoners into confession like the US, Syria and Egypt?

Is it the Immigration Minister that gets to judge whether people are terrorists if no court in Canada hears the case?

How is someone suppose to have access to courts in Canada if they are locked up oversees due to other countries at times questionable justice system?

Edited February 7, 2013 by shortlived

[Moonlight Graham]

No, the criticisms are legit. I see Kenney's sentiment, but if you committed an act of terror do you think your citizenship should be revoked? This gives power to the courts and the government to strip people's citizenship on a loosely defined concept such as "terrorism". During something like the US Civil War would all those fighting in the south have been stripped of their citizenship?

Rae is right in that this creates different classes of citizens, which is very problematic. It is a bit of knee jerk response without carefully thinking through the ramifications. It sounds good at first but then when one thinks about many problems appear. Honestly your support also seems like a similar knee-jerk reaction without thinking through the ramifications. Just because Rae doesn't support the idea doesn't mean he's a terrorist-lover or whatever people like you want to smear him as.

"This is something that has to be thought through consistently. Do we want to have two or three different kinds of citizens?" [Rae] said after his own caucus meeting.

Rae pointed out that those who commit other criminal acts are not routinely deprived of their citizenship.

"What are the consequences of doing that? Is it constitutional? These are things a minister of the Crown should be thinking of before he comes to a scrum and announces some kind of, frankly, knee-jerk response," Rae said.

NDP MP Peter Julian said Kenney's suggestion was not the approach most Canadians would take.

"We want to make sure that terrorism is stopped. But when we want to do that, it's within the framework of a democratic society where there's a system of checks and balances," Julian said.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...-terrorism.html

Edited February 7, 2013 by Moonlight Graham

[GostHacked]

Possibly should do away with dual citizenship period. Many have used Canada as a safe haven and a citizenship of convenience rather than the actual desire to live in Canada and revoke their other citizenship.

[shortlived]

What about those Canadians fighting in Syria, are they terrorists? Or are they just illegal solidiers helping a government in exile?

The diatribe on this is rampant. What about Canadians who helped to overthrow Gaddaffi? Etc...

Are they all not Canadian for their legal acts of terrorism?

Or is attacking government forces not terrorism, or only if the governments arn't friendly and politically disliked?

Are they on the governmentof the day's not liked list of antigovernment militants?

What about computer hackers who attack government websites, isn't that terrorism, what if they shut down electiricty is that not terrorism?

Are we gonig to waste that much time and money over changing the status of 10 people every 5 or 10 years?

Whynot just reinstitute the death penalty instead? You know actually give them a trial and all. Yeah cause terrorists only get a couple years in most countries.... causing killing people and blowing stuff up is much less severe than murder desrving life in prison huh??When is the next time they are back in Canada, what is that after the revolution succeeds?

Edited February 7, 2013 by shortlived

[GostHacked]

What about those Canadians fighting in Syria, are they terrorists? Or are they just illegal solidiers helping a government in exile?

The diatribe on this is rampant. What about Canadians who helped to overthrow Gaddaffi? Etc...

Are they all not Canadian for their legal acts of terrorism?

Or is attacking government forces not terrorism, or only if the governments arn't friendly and politically disliked?

Are they on the governmentof the day's not liked list of antigovernment militants?

What about computer hackers who attack government websites, isn't that terrorism, what if they shut down electiricty is that not terrorism?

Are we gonig to waste that much time and money over changing the status of 10 people every 5 or 10 years?

Whynot just reinstitute the death penalty instead? You know actually give them a trial and all. Yeah cause terrorists only get a couple years in most countries.... causing killing people and blowing stuff up is much less severe than murder desrving life in prison huh??When is the next time they are back in Canada, what is that after the revolution succeeds?

Some good questions there. We had seen terrorist activity from the British SAS in Libya. Canada and the USA also took part in terrorist activities against Gaddafi. These countries collectively went to war with Libya without an actual declaration of war. That declaration was avoided by providing proxy support for the Libyan rebels.

A country is no longer sovereign. The UN allowed this to happen and now Libya is much much worse off now than under Gaddafi. These countries have undermined another government by claiming the rebels as the legitimate governing body. Now that I think of it, this is very dangerous.

So should we jail people with dual citizenship if they commit terror acts, while our governments sanction terrorism against governments like that of Gaddafi and Assad?

Edited February 7, 2013 by GostHacked

[cybercoma]

The problem with stripping "terrorists" is 1) defining terrorism, 2) due process for allegations, and 3) a fair appeals process in case there are mistakes made by the government.

What? Our government make mistakes? Inconceivable.

If something's going to be done, then Bob Rae is right. This needs to be done carefully with a lot of study and discussion. The last thing we need is a government that just passes legislation at the drop of a hat without considering all of its ramifications.

Edited February 7, 2013 by cybercoma

[g_bambino]

The last thing we need is a government that just passes legislation at the drop of a hat without considering all of its ramifications.

You mean like the royal succession bill now passed by the House and before the Senate?

The above is OT, but it does highlight your point. MPs are not experts in all fields and frequently ignore those who are (often for purely political reasons). I thus wouldn't want a bill that proposes to revoke a "terrorist"'s citizenship to be put before the House until all considerations and ramifications had been studied. Otherwise, it might put us at the top of a very slippery slope.

[ed.: c/e]

Edited February 7, 2013 by g_bambino

[Signals.Cpl]

What about those born in Canada? So is there going to be two classes of Canadians, those born in Canada and those who moved here? And if this is approved what happens then? Why give a citizenship to people only to take it away?

There are other ways to make a Canadian Citizenship less attractive for citizens of convenience such as having to pay taxes even if you live outside of Canada or make it so those who live outside of Canada have to renew their passport more frequently and at a higher cost.

Right now you renew your passport every 5 years or so and pay the $100+ and are set, that is why its a citizenship of convenience people come to Canada and get citizenship then move back to their home country and renew it every 5 years only to use it in an emergency if you have to pay taxes in Canada wether you live here or not might remove those who use the Canadian passport for a safe haven only.

[Keepitsimple]

Politically motivated or not, Kenney is thinking the way that almost all Canadians think when they hear of these things. They know that something is not right. Times change. It wasn't that long ago that Canadians would never conceive that someone would take up arms against their own country or its allies - or that someone would come to Canada and then leave permanently to fight for causes that had nothing to do with Canada. As I said, Canadians KNOW that it's just not right and they want something done. If not for Kenney, people like Bob Rae would continue to wring their hands, stare at their navel - and do nothing. Times change - and we have to change with them. As for doing it right - who says it won't be done right? And if there are some tweaks that are necessary, the courts will tell us - Lord help us, there's never a shortage of lawyers.

[Signals.Cpl]

Politically motivated or not, Kenney is thinking the way that almost all Canadians think when they hear of these things. They know that something is not right. Times change. It wasn't that long ago that Canadians would never conceive that someone would take up arms against their own country or its allies - or that someone would come to Canada and then leave permanently to fight for causes that had nothing to do with Canada.

How is Canada my country if I am to be a second rate citizen simply because I was not born here? Why should I serve this country if the government decides not to recognize me as an equal to some one born here?

As I said, Canadians KNOW that it's just not right and they want something done.

And there are so many other ways to do something that don't involve making immigrants second class citizens.

If not for Kenney, people like Bob Rae would continue to wring their hands, stare at their navel - and do nothing. Times change - and we have to change with them. As for doing it right - who says it won't be done right? And if there are some tweaks that are necessary, the courts will tell us - Lord help us, there's never a shortage of lawyers.

There is a right way and a wrong way... this way is the wrong way which will alienate millions of Canadians and make second class citizens out of us.

[PIK]

The difference here is that if you were not born here and do something evil somewhere else, you lose it. Plain and simple. Sorry to burst your bubble, there is 2 canadians, born here and not. Don't tell me that someone from somewhere else comes here and get his papers and is as much as a canadian as I am, born and bred here, brought up with the values of this country ( not the liberal party values).But if you are born here, then you can not lose your citizenship. I am tired of this country being the safe place to hide for the idiots of the world , or get hurt fighting for the idiots but yet come here for medical and rest before you go back out again. Rae just screwed the pooch on this one and people will remember next election. That is the biggest problem with the libs, they have not changed or learned anything, the old days are over, tough desicions have to be made instead of talking about it for 10 years.

[g_bambino]

Politically motivated or not, Kenney is thinking the way that almost all Canadians think when they hear of these things... Times change.

Times do change; but, do you want to force them to change by implementing regressive policies? Even if almost all Canadians think what you say they do, that doesn't make what almost all Canadians think is right. Almost all Canadians might not understand the actual definition of a liberal democracy or that the act of taking away someone else's rights for ill-defined (and thus malleable) reasons might come round to affect them in some unjust way at some point. Judging by the lives ruined by the way society treats people who’ve only ever been accused of sexually abusing a minor, it seems most Canadians can’t even differentiate between an allegation and a conviction; probably quite a few would met out the death penalty based solely on the former. This is why we try not to institutionalize this kind of prejudice, which legally empowering the Crown to apply the nebulous term “terrorist” to anyone and strip them of their citizenship for it could well end up being.

[Topaz]

I would think that if anyone has dual citizenship to Canada or any other country, that the last thing they would consider would be coming back to that country because they have know they do jail time, for being a terrorists. So do we spend money on changing the rules??

[Signals.Cpl]

The difference here is that if you were not born here and do something evil somewhere else, you lose it. Plain and simple.

So 5 years of service to Canada and I am a second rate citizen? And 30 more years will do nothing to change that? I am a second class citizen behind even rapists and murderers simply because I was born in another country?

Sorry to burst your bubble, there is 2 canadians, born here and not. Don't tell me that someone from somewhere else comes here and get his papers and is as much as a canadian as I am, born and bred here, brought up with the values of this country ( not the liberal party values).

Is that true? What have you done to be different then me? I was born outside of Canada but have lived in Canada for far longer then outside of Canada, I have given more of myself to Canada then to my country of birth yet I can never be truly a Canadian. What about those born in Canada but raised with the values of their home country? Are they less Canadian then you? What defines a Canadian? Your words? Your beliefs? Your actions? Or is it simply the lottery of where you were born? What makes someone who was born here yet never worked a day in their life and is this very day sitting on welfare better then me, someone who has worked for the last 10 years since I was 15 and 5 of those years are in the CANADIAN Forces...

But if you are born here, then you can not lose your citizenship. I am tired of this country being the safe place to hide for the idiots of the world , or get hurt fighting for the idiots but yet come here for medical and rest before you go back out again.

Who is to say in 10 years this idiotic idea will not be expanded to include other crimes no matter how minor?

Rae just screwed the pooch on this one and people will remember next election.

That or the not quite Canadians of us will vote for them.

That is the biggest problem with the libs, they have not changed or learned anything, the old days are over, tough desicions have to be made instead of talking about it for 10 years.

Tough decisions? Like alienating a large segment of the population? Including people who have given more to Canada then many born here?

Edited February 7, 2013 by Signals.Cpl

[guyser]

The difference here is that if you were not born here and do something evil somewhere else, you lose it. Plain and simple. Sorry to burst your bubble, there is 2 canadians, born here and not. Don't tell me that someone from somewhere else comes here and get his papers and is as much as a canadian as I am, born and bred here, brought up with the values of this country ( not the liberal party values).

Sorry to burst your bubble but you are not only wrong, but dead wrong.

2 Canadians huh?

I gues a lack of respect for the law is the gist of your story.

[PIK]

Sounds unfair but to bad. Your children will be able to be full canadians and can then go overseas to dumb things and will be protected, but you better stay home , if you have any thoughts of being a idiot somewhere else. Most people come here to enjoy what this country is all about, but people that just use this country, fuck them. I would bet alot of immigrants would agree with me. If I had my way, a born canadian doing terrorist activities overseas, would be stripped also.

[PIK]

Sorry to burst your bubble but you are not only wrong, but dead wrong.

2 Canadians huh?

I gues a lack of respect for the law is the gist of your story.

How about the people that have a lack of respect for the law or humans lives. Values and morales baby, that is very important to becoming a canadian. All I am saying is people need to respect the fact thay have a canadian citizenship, and act accordingly or face the consquenses. Born here you stay, not born here you go. IMO a canadian citizenship is worth more then being a prize in a cracker jack box. Edited February 7, 2013 by PIK

[guyser]

Sounds unfair but to bad.

LOL....what the law says and what you think, thankfully are two different things.

The law says you are wrong. Ooops !

Your children will be able to be full canadians and can then go overseas to dumb things and will be protected, but you better stay home

No thanks. I can go anywhere I damn well please, including the old home country, and then I can come back and poke a stick in your eye and laugh.

, if you have any thoughts of being a idiot somewhere else.

Versus like here as you do?

. If I had my way,

...and you dont because we put trust in smarter people.

a born canadian doing terrorist activities overseas, would be stripped also.

Ok strip them. Of clothes...sure...of a car...sure.

Citizenship? Nope, no can do.Im heading out later this year for an extended stay . Want to bet I can be held to the same rules as you upon return?

ouch!

Edited February 7, 2013 by guyser

[PIK]

If you act accordingly ,then fine ,enjoy your trip, come back safe.

[guyser]

How about the people that have a lack of respect for the law or humans lives.

They get arrested and charged. You didnt know that?

[PIK]

And then protected by the piece of paper in thier pocket? The thing that gets me is the headlines that say a CANADIAN was leading the evil doers.Fuck them. And it is time to bring back the treason charges.

Edited February 7, 2013 by PIK

[The_Squid]

And it is time to bring back the treason charges.

Where did they go? Did someone misplace them???

[Signals.Cpl]

Sounds unfair but to bad. Your children will be able to be full canadians and can then go overseas to dumb things and will be protected, but you better stay home , if you have any thoughts of being a idiot somewhere else. Most people come here to enjoy what this country is all about, but people that just use this country, fuck them. I would bet alot of immigrants would agree with me. If I had my way, a born canadian doing terrorist activities overseas, would be stripped also.

So your argument is that someone born in 1970 in Canada and has lived only 2 years in Canada while the other 40+ years overseas and does not even speak english is more Canadian then someone who was born outside of Canada and moved to here with his/her family at age 2? So the only requirement to being Canadian is birth in Canada no consideration is given to actions since birth or wether or not you actually lived in Canada for any length of time? So being Canadian is defined by where you were born and not by who you are and what you have done with your life? Good to know that I am less Canadian then someone who moved out of the country when they were 8 while I moved to Canada at age 8 but will never be their equal as a citizen simply because I was not born here?

[GostHacked]

So 5 years of service to Canada and I am a second rate citizen? And 30 more years will do nothing to change that? I am a second class citizen behind even rapists and murderers simply because I was born in another country?

Do you still have dual citizenship? If so, what is making you hold on to your citizenship of your home country?