This is America! (Part II); Non-Multicultural, Melting Pot

[jbg]

Last night, at the close of the Academy Award ceremony, a fifth grade choir of children from a very ordinary public school in Staten Island sang "Somewhere Over the Rainbow". The children were of all colors, white, brown, yellow and olive. They all sang together in beautiful harmony, and thought nothing of it.

Our country may not be perfect, but we make a real effort to include all races, together, in our daily activities. What a contrast to the creation of bitter enclaves throughout Europe.

I have written, about three and one half years ago, on similar themes

1. A Non-Multicultural, Melting Pot Kind of Day;
   
2. This is America! I Hope Canadians Feel the Same Way About Theirs
   

I still feel the same sentiments.

[Black Dog]

Our country may not be perfect, but we make a real effort to include all races, together, in our daily activities. What a contrast to the creation of bitter enclaves throughout Europe.

That's very Canadian. "Only in America" indeed.

[jbg]

That's very Canadian. "Only in America" indeed.

I don't quite follow your point. Care to expand?

[Black Dog]

I don't quite follow your point. Care to expand?

"Only in America" is a line you used in one of the linked post, implying that only in the U.S. do you find this kind of ethnic harmony. Yet I have zero doubt this same phenomenon can be observed everyday here in Canada, even with official multiculturalism. So your exceptionalist take is very inaccurate.

[jbg]

Yet I have zero doubt this same phenomenon can be observed everyday here in Canada, even with official multiculturalism. So your exceptionalist take is very inaccurate.

You had a female PM for a few months. I'll grant you that.

On the other hand, you have Toronto's recent exploration of "African" schools, the subject of a thread here. You have the official promotion of "multiculturalism".

[Black Dog]

You had a female PM for a few months. I'll grant you that.

On the other hand, you have Toronto's recent exploration of "African" schools, the subject of a thread here. You have the official promotion of "multiculturalism".

Yeah and your country has a 250 year legacy of slavery and institutionalized race-based oppression and segregation, an almost extinct indigenous population and a fence to keep out the Mexicans.

See? I can provide irrelevant factoids too.

Now: explain, please, how "only in America" is "a real effort to include all races...in daily activities" made.

[Guest American Woman]

Of course it's not only in America. Enough said.

[jbg]

Yeah and your country has a 250 year legacy of slavery and institutionalized race-based oppression and segregation, an almost extinct indigenous population and a fence to keep out the Mexicans.

Let's dispose of the "almost extinct indigenous population" argument. Smallpox did most of that damage in both of our countries. The indigenous populations (I guess no longer "First Nations") in your view were down about 95% in population before much of the continent was scheduled. The remaining 5% of the population simply did not need to rattle around an empty continent.

Slavery was a blot on U.S. history, and so was the racism and segregation that followed. No question about it. We have worked hard as a nation since the end of WW II to eliminate this. The African-American population demonstrated unequivocally that they wanted in to what America had to offer. The transition is rough but we're getting there. Not so much the Francophone population in Quebec.

Now: explain, please, how "only in America" is "a real effort to include all races...in daily activities" made.

See above, and the opening post. And what black people do you work with on a daily basis? One of the partners I worked under, until just recently, was a black female.

[DogOnPorch]

Of course it's not only in America. Enough said.

The UK, too.

[bush_cheney2004]

The UK, too.

Hee hee...it's funny to watch the "white people" fight over who loves the "black people" most!

[DogOnPorch]

Hee hee...it's funny to watch the "white people" fight over who loves the "black people" most!

Not enough cats in that last one...

There we go...I'm luvin' it.

[Black Dog]

Let's dispose of the "almost extinct indigenous population" argument. Smallpox did most of that damage in both of our countries. The indigenous populations (I guess no longer "First Nations") in your view were down about 95% in population before much of the continent was scheduled.

First Nations is a Canadian term (one that refers specifically to non-Inuit or Metis aborginals) so using it in a U.S context would be inaccurate (you still call them Injuns, right?)

The remaining 5% of the population simply did not need to rattle around an empty continent.

No, but U.S. policies (see: the Indian wars, the Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee etc) ensured that much of that five per cent weren't "ratting around."

Because they were dead, see?

Now, Canada's treatment of its aborginal peoples is by no means exemplary-indeed, far from it-but it's downright stellar compared to the genocide your country perpetuated upon them.

Slavery was a blot on U.S. history, and so was the racism and segregation that followed. No question about it. We have worked hard as a nation since the end of WW II to eliminate this. The African-American population demonstrated unequivocally that they wanted in to what America had to offer. The transition is rough but we're getting there. Not so much the Francophone population in Quebec.

The Francophone population of Quebec that has twice rejected separation in orderly expression of democratic will? Your country's frictions with the descendants of its slave class make Anglo-Quebec relations here look like mere sibling rivalry. The Richard Riots got nothin' on Watts, the MLK aftermath, Rodney King...

See above, and the opening post. And what black people do you work with on a daily basis? One of the partners I worked under, until just recently, was a black female.

In point of fact, in my immediate office I work with one Indo-Canadian, three African-Canadians, a Portuguese, a Pole and a Vietnamese-Canadian. One might even say we make a real effort to include all races, together, in our daily activities.

Would you say some of your best friends are black? I think I found your personal web site btw.

[jbg]

First Nations is a Canadian term (one that refers specifically to non-Inuit or Metis aborginals) so using it in a U.S context would be inaccurate (you still call them Injuns, right?)

I am on a Canadian board, so I use terminology Canadians use, aside from adopting misspellings of English words like "harbour" and "labour".

No, but U.S. policies (see: the Indian wars, the Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee etc) ensured that much of that five per cent weren't "ratting around."

Because they were dead, see?

Again, my point is that long pror to the "Trail of Tears" and the "Indian Wars" the "indigenous" population was reduced by 90-95% by virtue of smallpox and other epidemics. While I will not justify all of the land seizures,t he fact is that the remaining 5-10% remaining after epidemics did not need all of North America. Some of the land seizures were indeed unjustified. Others were motivated by continuing harrassment of white settlements. Some of that harrassment being quite deadly.

Now, Canada's treatment of its aborginal peoples is by no means exemplary-indeed, far from it-but it's downright stellar compared to the genocide your country perpetuated upon them.

Oh really? This article (link, excerpts below) will give you a new perspective:

FIRST NATIONS-Still waiting in Attawapiskat (Page 1 of 5)

A Cree community on James Bay has been fighting for a new elementary school for more than a decade. Will Indian and Northern Affairs Canada fail the next generation?

If Shannen Koostachin were alive, she would tell you this story herself. She would describe every corner of Attawapiskat with precision, answer every question with patience and watch your eyes carefully as you listened.

She feared nothing, that girl. Not strangers, not defeat. Travelling far from her home, she appealed to Canadian teenagers for help in the fight for a decent elementary school for the kids of the Attawapiskat First Nation on the western coast of James Bay. Two years ago, at the age of 13, Shannen stood beside a pair of grade-eight friends at a news conference on Parliament Hill. In clear voices, they made their case to the country. Then they marched off to confront the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC).

“When we met up with him, Chuck Strahl told me he didn’t have the money to build a school,” Shannen later told a gym full of high school students. “I looked at the rich room he sat in with all his staff. I told him I wished I had a classroom that was as nice as the office he sat in every day. He told me he couldn’t stay for more of the meeting because he had other things to do. We were very upset. The elders who were with us had tears in their eyes. But when he was about to leave, I looked him straight in the eye and said, ‘Oh, we’re not going to quit. We’re not going to give up.’”

******************

The long search for Ian Kamalatisit was hard enough on the teenagers of Attawapiskat, but their spring ordeal deepened. On April 23, Dakota Nakogee, age 16, died of kidney failure three months after giving birth to her baby Elizabeth. A year earlier, on April 24, 2009, Brendon Kioke, age 15, a popular hockey player who wore the number 22 jersey on the Akimiski Islanders, had died as a result of gunshot wounds. This tragic coincidence seemed to set off a terrible spiral of despair among some young people, who saw a pattern in their grief.

“Youth suicide is a big issue here,” said Theresa Hall, then chief of the Attawapiskat First Nation. “Just in April, we had seven attempts. I think the fact that we are losing other young people — the gun accident and the drowning accident — is encouraging this problem right now.” She also talked about the lethal curse of crystal meth and other hard drugs in a town where police searches at the airport are too costly to be routine, allowing poison to drift into town like smoke.

Death strikes the young in Attawapiskat for too many reasons and for no reason.

*********************

There is no library, no cafeteria, no art room, no music room. There are no heated corridors between the scattered classrooms. Every day, children and teachers walk inside and outside — inside and outside, inside and outside — through blizzards, ice fog, sleet and thunderstorms. Maintenance workers move a rough wooden ramp to a different portable every year to allow access to a disabled student as he moves through the grades.

******************

I guess you didn't think a Yank like me gets Canadian Geographic delivered or can read. I get it and am (barely) literate. I can read how great your countries' treatment of FN's is. Truly revolting.

The Francophone population of Quebec that has twice rejected separation in orderly expression of democratic will? Your country's frictions with the descendants of its slave class make Anglo-Quebec relations here look like mere sibling rivalry. The Richard Riots got nothin' on Watts, the MLK aftermath, Rodney King...

A "non" vote of 50.1% and "oui" of 49.9%? As for our country's frictions with "descendants of its slave class" check out www.whitehouse.gov.

In point of fact, in my immediate office I work with one Indo-Canadian, three African-Canadians, a Portuguese, a Pole and a Vietnamese-Canadian. One might even say we make a real effort to include all races, together, in our daily activities.

Point well made.

Would you say some of your best friends are black? I think I found your personal web site btw.

That is a slur.

[Black Dog]

I am on a Canadian board, so I use terminology Canadians use, aside from adopting misspellings of English words like "harbour" and "labour".

Don't blame us because you parted company with the mother tounge when you parted company from the mother country.

Again, my point is that long pror to the "Trail of Tears" and the "Indian Wars" the "indigenous" population was reduced by 90-95% by virtue of smallpox and other epidemics. While I will not justify all of the land seizures,t he fact is that the remaining 5-10% remaining after epidemics did not need all of North America. Some of the land seizures were indeed unjustified. Others were motivated by continuing harrassment of white settlements. Some of that harrassment being quite deadly.

I'm not sure what the fact that the population was down to a mere fraction of its pre-contact number has to do with their subsequent mistreatment (and that's a mild descriptor). Unless you feel that those land hogs deserved to be forcibly removed off the tiny amount of land they still held at the time and slaughtered when they failed to oblige. After all, how could they demand more than their share of the land (which they did not do in any case) when they could only physically occupy a portion? It's another strawman from a guy who should be making scarecrows for a living at this point

I guess you didn't think a Yank like me gets Canadian Geographic delivered or can read. I get it and am (barely) literate. I can read how great your countries' treatment of FN's is. Truly revolting.

Yeah it's pretty bad and I never pretended otherwise. Of course there's one major difference: we still have an aboriginal population left to deal with. You guys came up with a final solution to that little problem 100 years ago. By the way: how are your few remaining aborginals doing in place like the Black Hills? I'm sure its paradise on earth, right?

A "non" vote of 50.1% and "oui" of 49.9%?

And the numbers have been falling ever since to the point where Quebec sovereignty is a decidedly minority viewpoint. Around 30 per cent. And in spite of the lingering sovereigntist sentiment, the Québécois in Canada are still part of the fabric of this great country and not the adversaries your initial misdirection made them out to be.

As for our country's frictions with "descendants of its slave class" check out www.whitehouse.gov.

Well, I guess since you elected a black guy as president we can close the book on race relations forever. Move along, nothing to see here.

That is a slur.

This! Is! SPARTA!

Edited March 2, 2011 by Black Dog

[Moonlight Graham]

It's inaccurate to say America is non-multicultural. Look around the entire country (New York, Florida, California etc.) and you will see Hispanics/Mexicans, Asians, Italians, Arabs/Muslims, Africans, Jews etc. freely enjoying the practice of their own cultures & religions, as well as forming their own mini-societies in places (ever been to China town?).

The difference is that the US gov does not have the official "multicultural" policies like Canada and much of Europe does. Everyone is encouraged to be, above all, an American, and be part of "American" culture.

Not so much true in Canada. We have let Canadian culture and our sense of history rot away for reasons including "not offending" other cultures. Which is horse-poop.

The "melting pot" way is much better, the US got that one right for sure. While their patriotism sometimes turns into hyper-nationalism and arrogance, i at least admire the Americans' patriotism and pride in their own history.

[Black Dog]

The difference is that the US gov does not have the official "multicultural" policies like Canada and much of Europe does. Everyone is encouraged to be, above all, an American, and be part of "American" culture.

Not so much true in Canada. We have let Canadian culture and our sense of history rot away for reasons including "not offending" other cultures. Which is horse-poop.

What's horse-poop is this argument. Tell me: what is this Canadian culture that is now festering under the jack boot of state multiculturalism? Examples.

[jbg]

Of course there's one major difference: we still have an aboriginal population left to deal with. You guys came up with a final solution to that little problem 100 years ago. By the way: how are your few remaining aborginals doing in place like the Black Hills? I'm sure its paradise on earth, right?

Wounded Knee was a sickening event. The event must be taken in the context of a rebellion. Further, it was certainly not a "final solution" designed to wipe out all Native Americans. We still have plenty and the Oneida of upstate New York and the Mashantucket Pequot, at least, are doing rather well, thank you.

And the numbers have been falling ever since to the point where Quebec sovereignty is a decidedly minority viewpoint. Around 30 per cent. And in spite of the lingering sovereigntist sentiment, the Québécois in Canada are still part of the fabric of this great country and not the adversaries your initial misdirection made them out to be.

Then why is the ROC still bribing them?

[Black Dog]

Wounded Knee was a sickening event. The event must be taken in the context of a rebellion.

And the "rebellion" (if one can indeed call the grumblings of discontent among a small group of desperate religious fanatics such a thing) must be put into the context of the larger policy of forced relocation and land theft and, locally, the murder of Sitting Bull.

Further, it was certainly not a "final solution" designed to wipe out all Native Americans.

I agree: the total physical destruction of the natives was not the goal. Taking their land and wiping out their culture was the goal. The actual mass slaughter was a byproduct of the plan.

We still have plenty and the Oneida of upstate New York and the Mashantucket Pequot, at least, are doing rather well, thank you.

Nice to know that some of them have turned it around. Is that the norm or the exception?

Then why is the ROC still bribing them?

What bribes?

[jbg]

It's inaccurate to say America is non-multicultural. Look around the entire country (New York, Florida, California etc.) and you will see Hispanics/Mexicans, Asians, Italians, Arabs/Muslims, Africans, Jews etc. freely enjoying the practice of their own cultures & religions, as well as forming their own mini-societies in places (ever been to China town?).

There are many more of each ethnicity in integrated neighborhoods than in the enclaves. Also, most of these people participate fully in civic life, especially the Italians, Africans and Jews.

The difference is that the US gov does not have the official "multicultural" policies like Canada and much of Europe does. Everyone is encouraged to be, above all, an American, and be part of "American" culture.

Quite correct.

Not so much true in Canada. We have let Canadian culture and our sense of history rot away for reasons including "not offending" other cultures. Which is horse-poop.

And it is education about a glorious history that has been allowed to rot. I met a pair of schoolteachers from Peterborough, Ontario at a Great Big Sea concert in New York in April 2006 who did not know who Montcalm and Wolfe were or know about the Plains of Abraham.

The "melting pot" way is much better, the US got that one right for sure. While their patriotism sometimes turns into hyper-nationalism and arrogance, i at least admire the Americans' patriotism and pride in their own history.

That is quite a bit part of the glue that holds the U.S. together.

[Black Dog]

There are many more of each ethnicity in integrated neighborhoods than in the enclaves. Also, most of these people participate fully in civic life, especially the Italians, Africans and Jews.

And again I ask: how is this any different from Canada? Australia? I get that you want to feel special. But on this, you just aren't.

And it is education about a glorious history that has been allowed to rot. I met a pair of schoolteachers from Peterborough, Ontario at a Great Big Sea concert in New York in April 2006 who did not know who Montcalm and Wolfe were or know about the Plains of Abraham.

That fucking story again?! Since you keep bringing it up, I have to assume you believe that this person is representative of all Canadians or that this is the only Canadian you've ever met IRL.

I'd also be willing to put the historical self-awareness of Canadians against that of Americans any day of the week, not to mention our knowledge of the world at large. Not that I'm so arrogant as to think we're that much smarter: the corrosive ignorance and crass consumerist dogma that is the warp and woof of contemporary American culture knows not the border.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Black Dog

[jbg]

And again I ask: how is this any different from Canada? Australia? I get that you want to feel special. But on this, you just aren't.

Not sure about Canada but definitely we integrate better than Australia does. I still enjoy being proud of my country.

That fucking story again?! Since you keep bringing it up, I have to assume you believe that this person is representative of all Canadians or that this is the only Canadian you've ever met IRL.

You must feel really strongly about this because you curse about it. You may have read it but not everyone has.

I'd also be willing to put the historical self-awareness of Canadians against that of Americans any day of the week, not to mention our knowledge of the world at large. Not that I'm so arrogant as to think we're that much smarter: the corrosive ignorance and crass consumerist dogma that is the warp and woof of contemporary American culture knows not the border.

I am not ignorant or a crass consumer.

[Moonlight Graham]

I'd also be willing to put the historical self-awareness of Canadians against that of Americans any day of the week, not to mention our knowledge of the world at large.

World knowledge is a different issue, but i'd take the bet that Americans know more about their history than Canadians do any day of the week. I'd also take the bet that Canadians know more about US history than Canadian history. Education system and media = US know more of their own, an media is a huge reason why we know so much about the US as well. I've seen a gazillion films of US historical events, don't think i've seen one feature film based around Canadian history (never saw Passchendaele, heard it wasn't that good).

My grandfather was in the Canadian military, so growing up my mother moved around lot. Lived in different places in Canada and the US so experienced both school systems. She's said in the US they just drilled that history into kids from elementary school up. Not so much in Canada. The situation now is even worse.

[jbg]

I'd also take the bet that Canadians know more about US history than Canadian history.

On the other hand I'll take a bet that I know more about Canadian history than many Canadian students, in spite of my relativce ignorance about Canada.

[Black Dog]

I still enjoy being proud of my country.

Must that pride be tinged with such arrogance and exceptionalism, though?

You must feel really strongly about this because you curse about it.You may have read it but not everyone has.

Anyone who's been on this board in the last five years will have read it. By the way, the story used to be two school teachers: what happened to the other one?

I am not ignorant or a crass consumer.

Who said you were?

[jbg]

The "melting pot" way is much better, the US got that one right for sure. While their patriotism sometimes turns into hyper-nationalism and arrogance, i at least admire the Americans' patriotism and pride in their own history.

Americans have always been accused of being "hyper-patriotic". Would it have been better if our independence was basically a non-event, as in not exciting? (link to earlier thread)

The Dominion of Canada (link to article, maybe)

Inauguration of the Confederation - A General Holiday - Lord Monck Sworn In - Review of Troops

This day has given birth to the political infant, the Dominion of Canada.

At 12:5 (sic) o'clock last night its advent was hailed by a salute of 101 guns and a bonfire, also by the ringing of bells. The day dawned clearly and brightly on its nativity, and the capital was dressed with bunting to testify the public pleasure. The flags hung out were of course the British, with a very, very few French flags.

It was evident that the celebration of the birth of the new state was to fall upon the shoulders of the authorities, the people generally taking a passive interest in it.

There is a feeling of anxiety as to how the union will work, rather than confidence in it.

**********

If you cannot read link, PM or e-mail me [email protected] for a PDF of the article. It is fascinating.

Edited March 3, 2011 by jbg