Equal Rights For Straights ?

[Michael Hardner]

I am one of those rare people who stands up for gay rights (I have been doing this for over twenty years now) for religious rights, for non-religious rights and for straight rights. I guess you can say I have a strong constitution.

On another thread, there was a discussion about a Knights of Columbus Hall that refused to rent to two lesbians who were going to be wed. Part of the discussion was directed towards the motives of those women - whether they really wanted to rent the hall or they were just trying to 'make a point'.

Of course, legally it doesn't matter. But let me ask generally - would you give support to a gay person or straight person who persued a rights issue only to make a point ?

For the straights, there are opportunities for challenges out there - several clubs in Toronto now host openly discriminatory 'homosexual only' nights. This is clearly discriminatory, but hasn't yet been challenged. A friend of mine, who is gay, wanted to have his friends meet him at a bar to celebrate his birthday, but the number of men allowed in is restricted as it's a dyke night.

How do you feel about such practices and how would you feel about a heterosexual challenge to the law ? Would you do it yourself ?

[scribblet]

I am one of those rare people who stands up for gay rights (I have been doing this for over twenty years now) for religious rights, for non-religious rights and for straight rights. I guess you can say I have a strong constitution.

On another thread, there was a discussion about a Knights of Columbus Hall that refused to rent to two lesbians who were going to be wed. Part of the discussion was directed towards the motives of those women - whether they really wanted to rent the hall or they were just trying to 'make a point'.

Of course, legally it doesn't matter. But let me ask generally - would you give support to a gay person or straight person who persued a rights issue only to make a point ?

For the straights, there are opportunities for challenges out there - several clubs in Toronto now host openly discriminatory 'homosexual only' nights. This is clearly discriminatory, but hasn't yet been challenged. A friend of mine, who is gay, wanted to have his friends meet him at a bar to celebrate his birthday, but the number of men allowed in is restricted as it's a dyke night.

How do you feel about such practices and how would you feel about a heterosexual challenge to the law ? Would you do it yourself ?

I'd like to see it, it swings both ways right (pun intended) whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Hollus]

On another thread, there was a discussion about a Knights of Columbus Hall that refused to rent to two lesbians who were going to be wed. Part of the discussion was directed towards the motives of those women - whether they really wanted to rent the hall or they were just trying to 'make a point'.

Of course, legally it doesn't matter. But let me ask generally - would you give support to a gay person or straight person who persued a rights issue only to make a point ?

For the straights, there are opportunities for challenges out there - several clubs in Toronto now host openly discriminatory 'homosexual only' nights. This is clearly discriminatory, but hasn't yet been challenged. A friend of mine, who is gay, wanted to have his friends meet him at a bar to celebrate his birthday, but the number of men allowed in is restricted as it's a dyke night.

How do you feel about such practices and how would you feel about a heterosexual challenge to the law ? Would you do it yourself ?

I think thats a rediculous comparison. Homosexual nights descriminatory? So I guees Ladies nights would be targeted aswell. Show me how heterosexuals are descriminated and I will tell you how I feel about it.

[Hicksey]

On another thread, there was a discussion about a Knights of Columbus Hall that refused to rent to two lesbians who were going to be wed. Part of the discussion was directed towards the motives of those women - whether they really wanted to rent the hall or they were just trying to 'make a point'.

Of course, legally it doesn't matter. But let me ask generally - would you give support to a gay person or straight person who persued a rights issue only to make a point ?

For the straights, there are opportunities for challenges out there - several clubs in Toronto now host openly discriminatory 'homosexual only' nights. This is clearly discriminatory, but hasn't yet been challenged. A friend of mine, who is gay, wanted to have his friends meet him at a bar to celebrate his birthday, but the number of men allowed in is restricted as it's a dyke night.

How do you feel about such practices and how would you feel about a heterosexual challenge to the law ? Would you do it yourself ?

I think thats a rediculous comparison. Homosexual nights descriminatory? So I guees Ladies nights would be targeted aswell. Show me how heterosexuals are descriminated and I will tell you how I feel about it.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Why not just start having heterosexual pride parades?

I forgot, its only discrimination today if it is against minorities. Sorry.

[Spike22]

On another thread, there was a discussion about a Knights of Columbus Hall that refused to rent to two lesbians who were going to be wed. Part of the discussion was directed towards the motives of those women - whether they really wanted to rent the hall or they were just trying to 'make a point'.

Of course, legally it doesn't matter. But let me ask generally - would you give support to a gay person or straight person who persued a rights issue only to make a point ?

For the straights, there are opportunities for challenges out there - several clubs in Toronto now host openly discriminatory 'homosexual only' nights. This is clearly discriminatory, but hasn't yet been challenged. A friend of mine, who is gay, wanted to have his friends meet him at a bar to celebrate his birthday, but the number of men allowed in is restricted as it's a dyke night.

How do you feel about such practices and how would you feel about a heterosexual challenge to the law ? Would you do it yourself ?

I think thats a rediculous comparison. Homosexual nights descriminatory? So I guees Ladies nights would be targeted aswell. Show me how heterosexuals are descriminated and I will tell you how I feel about it.

Heterosexuals are discriminated by being subjected to the gay liberal agenda in the media that's how. There are more canoe lickers and bum seperators on the telly these days as never before. (must admit the fags are hilarious at times)

As to Harder (is that your real last name or desire big fella) your hollier than now constitution is laughable - who writes your material anyway? Bwaahaaa

All the good decorating, flower arranging and other faggy jobs are being done by the queers. [when was the last time your wife hired a straight decorator - for us NEVER!]

[August1991]

On another thread, there was a discussion about a Knights of Columbus Hall that refused to rent to two lesbians who were going to be wed. Part of the discussion was directed towards the motives of those women - whether they really wanted to rent the hall or they were just trying to 'make a point'.

Of course, legally it doesn't matter. But let me ask generally - would you give support to a gay person or straight person who persued a rights issue only to make a point ?

For the straights, there are opportunities for challenges out there - several clubs in Toronto now host openly discriminatory 'homosexual only' nights. This is clearly discriminatory, but hasn't yet been challenged. A friend of mine, who is gay, wanted to have his friends meet him at a bar to celebrate his birthday, but the number of men allowed in is restricted as it's a dyke night.

How do you feel about such practices and how would you feel about a heterosexual challenge to the law ? Would you do it yourself ?

Challenge to which law exactly? Is there a law that forbids you from discriminating against Pepsi in favour of Coke? Are you not free to discriminate against a Jewish shopkeeper and choose a Korean one instead? Are you not free to be sexist and have your hair cut by a woman instead of a man simply because you prefer a woman?

Canada's Charter of Rights places restrictions only on how the government can treat us. It says nothing about how we treat one another. You are free to discriminate in your choice of spouse, hairdresser, friends, shopkeeper and so on.

Following an American practice, we have developed in Canada Human Rights Tribunals which examine cases of discrimination in private transactions. The tribunals typically examine only alleged discrimination by one side of the transaction. Needless to say, these tribunals now have cases backlogged for several years and they pick and choose according to their own agenda.

----

Michael, it is logical that a Charter of Rights circumscribes the powers of the State (although the Charter need not be a single explicit document). The State, even democratic, is a monopoly. A local club or bar or hairdresser is not a monopoly. If you don't like their service, prices or clientele, you are free to go elsewhere. Do you think your decision not to use the services of a particular taxi driver should be subject to review by a human rights tribunal?

And, why do stores have the right to discriminate on the basis of poverty anyway? Should not stores treat rich and poor alike, without discrimination?

[Black Dog]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Why not just start having heterosexual pride parades?

They already do.

[Hollus]

On another thread, there was a discussion about a Knights of Columbus Hall that refused to rent to two lesbians who were going to be wed. Part of the discussion was directed towards the motives of those women - whether they really wanted to rent the hall or they were just trying to 'make a point'.

Of course, legally it doesn't matter. But let me ask generally - would you give support to a gay person or straight person who persued a rights issue only to make a point ?

For the straights, there are opportunities for challenges out there - several clubs in Toronto now host openly discriminatory 'homosexual only' nights. This is clearly discriminatory, but hasn't yet been challenged. A friend of mine, who is gay, wanted to have his friends meet him at a bar to celebrate his birthday, but the number of men allowed in is restricted as it's a dyke night.

How do you feel about such practices and how would you feel about a heterosexual challenge to the law ? Would you do it yourself ?

I think thats a rediculous comparison. Homosexual nights descriminatory? So I guees Ladies nights would be targeted aswell. Show me how heterosexuals are descriminated and I will tell you how I feel about it.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Why not just start having heterosexual pride parades?

I forgot, its only discrimination today if it is against minorities. Sorry.

Well, you could do a hetero pride parade but wouldnt you feel a little silly doing it? I mean its not like its unaccepted to be straight. However, I can understand why the gay community would want to rally support and awareness for their movment and so they should, because it is quite obvious from reading this board that there are many that would like to repress them and shut them back into the closet. Thats descrimination.

As soon as Im descriminated as a heterosexual, then I will march in the hetero pride parade. But I dont see that happing anytime soon.

[Hicksey]

On another thread, there was a discussion about a Knights of Columbus Hall that refused to rent to two lesbians who were going to be wed. Part of the discussion was directed towards the motives of those women - whether they really wanted to rent the hall or they were just trying to 'make a point'.

Of course, legally it doesn't matter. But let me ask generally - would you give support to a gay person or straight person who persued a rights issue only to make a point ?

For the straights, there are opportunities for challenges out there - several clubs in Toronto now host openly discriminatory 'homosexual only' nights. This is clearly discriminatory, but hasn't yet been challenged. A friend of mine, who is gay, wanted to have his friends meet him at a bar to celebrate his birthday, but the number of men allowed in is restricted as it's a dyke night.

How do you feel about such practices and how would you feel about a heterosexual challenge to the law ? Would you do it yourself ?

I think thats a rediculous comparison. Homosexual nights descriminatory? So I guees Ladies nights would be targeted aswell. Show me how heterosexuals are descriminated and I will tell you how I feel about it.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Why not just start having heterosexual pride parades?

I forgot, its only discrimination today if it is against minorities. Sorry.

Well, you could do a hetero pride parade but wouldnt you feel a little silly doing it? I mean its not like its unaccepted to be straight. However, I can understand why the gay community would want to rally support and awareness for their movment and so they should, because it is quite obvious from reading this board that there are many that would like to repress them and shut them back into the closet. Thats descrimination.

As soon as Im descriminated as a heterosexual, then I will march in the hetero pride parade. But I dont see that happing anytime soon.

I think its silly to have either. I was being facetious about having a heterosexual pride parade.

Lets leave what happens in our bedrooms in the bedroom where it belongs. I don't care what you do there so long as its legal. Just don't tell me about it.

I don't want to see a bunch of half dressed heterosexuals romping through town celebrating their sex lives anymore than I want to see a bunch of homosexuals.

These things are better left behind closed doors.

[Michael Hardner]

Hollus:

I think thats a rediculous comparison. Homosexual nights descriminatory? So I guees Ladies nights would be targeted aswell. Show me how heterosexuals are descriminated and I will tell you how I feel about it.

Ladies night as far as I know doesn't bar men from entering.

Heterosexuals are barred from entering certain clubs in Toronto.

If that's not discrimination then what is ?

You can't open a restaurant with a sign that says 'no gays' can you ?

[Michael Hardner]

Spike22:

As to Harder (is that your real last name or desire big fella) your hollier than now constitution is laughable - who writes your material anyway? Bwaahaaa

All the good decorating, flower arranging and other faggy jobs are being done by the queers. [when was the last time your wife hired a straight decorator - for us NEVER!]

It's Hardner and yes I write my own stuff.

There's nothing stopping you as a straight person from taking a 'faggy job' (your term). If there was a school that barred straight people you might have a point, but you don't now.

[Michael Hardner]

Auguste:

Challenge to which law exactly? Is there a law that forbids you from discriminating against Pepsi in favour of Coke? Are you not free to discriminate against a Jewish shopkeeper and choose a Korean one instead? Are you not free to be sexist and have your hair cut by a woman instead of a man simply because you prefer a woman?

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post. If you read it again, you'll see I stated that these drinking establishments have 'HOMOSEXUAL ONLY' nights. That means STRAIGHTS NOT ALLOWED IN.

They ask you if you're straight and if you say 'yes' you can't come in.

Canada's Charter of Rights places restrictions only on how the government can treat us. It says nothing about how we treat one another. You are free to discriminate in your choice of spouse, hairdresser, friends, shopkeeper and so on.

Not true, though, if you are serving the public. I don't think you can legally put a 'NO BLACKS' sign in front of your store.

There was a case of a bar that kicked out two women for kissing and they were taken to the tribunal and told it wasn't legal.

Following an American practice, we have developed in Canada Human Rights Tribunals which examine cases of discrimination in private transactions. The tribunals typically examine only alleged discrimination by one side of the transaction. Needless to say, these tribunals now have cases backlogged for several years and they pick and choose according to their own agenda.

----

Michael, it is logical that a Charter of Rights circumscribes the powers of the State (although the Charter need not be a single explicit document). The State, even democratic, is a monopoly. A local club or bar or hairdresser is not a monopoly. If you don't like their service, prices or clientele, you are free to go elsewhere. Do you think your decision not to use the services of a particular taxi driver should be subject to review by a human rights tribunal?

And, why do stores have the right to discriminate on the basis of poverty anyway? Should not stores treat rich and poor alike, without discrimination?

It seems to me that you missed what I said. See above.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Hardner,

For the straights, there are opportunities for challenges out there - several clubs in Toronto now host openly discriminatory 'homosexual only' nights. This is clearly discriminatory, but hasn't yet been challenged. A friend of mine, who is gay, wanted to have his friends meet him at a bar to celebrate his birthday, but the number of men allowed in is restricted as it's a dyke night.

How do you feel about such practices and how would you feel about a heterosexual challenge to the law ? Would you do it yourself ?

My time is too valuable to protest 'just to prove a point'.

There are many things that should be acceptable, and some that should not. Often clubs and bars (and restaurants) are 'closed to the public' for special events, usually for company functions. By the same token, one could argue (foolishly) that they were being discriminated against, and refused service or entry, because they did not belong to that specific company.

However, August1991,

If you don't like their service, prices or clientele, you are free to go elsewhere. Do you think your decision not to use the services of a particular taxi driver should be subject to review by a human rights tribunal?

Should it be up to the consumer to decide if a 'whites only' club should exist?

As to the notion of the 'Pride Parade', I don't really care. I actually see it as a 'Sexual Preference Parade', so I have advocated (and labeled a mixed 'burned' music CD in my collection) "The All-Canadian Tit-Fuckers Parade".

[Michael Hardner]

theloniusfleabag

By the same token, one could argue (foolishly) that they were being discriminated against, and refused service or entry, because they did not belong to that specific company.

One COULD argue anything, yes, including that.

But there's really no argument there is there ?

There are many things that should be acceptable, and some that should not.

And so we have the constitution being used to bar discrimination against gays, which I agree with 100%. Same sex marriage should be legal in my opinion. But I seem to be more apalled by the 'NO STRAIGHTS' nights than you are.

[Riverwind]

For the straights, there are opportunities for challenges out there - several clubs in Toronto now host openly discriminatory 'homosexual only' nights. This is clearly discriminatory, but hasn't yet been challenged.

You could challenge 'senior's discounts' or 'women only health clubs' using the same logic. At some level, private businesses have a right to choose their clientel, however, we draw the line at certain types of descrimination for historical reasons (e.g. exclusions of Jews, Blacks etc.).

Now there is a case in BC of a man challenging the women only designation of a health club. He feels that the marketplace does not give him the option of choosing a men's club within a reasonable distance of his home so the exclusion of men creates a hardship for him.

Many will laugh at this guy's situation but I think it is a sign of times to some as previously disadvantaged groups achieve social equality. This means that cases of discrimination against the 'majority' should not be dismissed as a contradiction in terms but looked at based on thier merits.

If the 'homos' only phenomena spread to the point where straight people could not find a decent bar on certain nights then it would be reasonable grounds for discrimination. If the bar next door has no such policy then I do not think it would be grounds for discrimination.

[Michael Hardner]

You could challenge 'senior's discounts' or 'women only health clubs' using the same logic. At some level, private businesses have a right to choose their clientel, however, we draw the line at certain types of descrimination for historical reasons (e.g. exclusions of Jews, Blacks etc.).

Sort of but not exactly.

Age discrimination is prohibited up to age 65 I believe, and women's only health clubs haven't been tested.

Business do have the right to choose their clientel but we draw the line based on the law.

Now there is a case in BC of a man challenging the women only designation of a health club. He feels that the marketplace does not give him the option of choosing a men's club within a reasonable distance of his home so the exclusion of men creates a hardship for him.

Ok.

Many will laugh at this guy's situation but I think it is a sign of times to some as previously disadvantaged groups attitude social equality. This means that cases of discrimination against the 'majority' should not be dismissed as a contradiction in terms.

Exactly. Thanks.

[Spike22]

There's nothing stopping you as a straight person from taking a 'faggy job' (your term). If there was a school that barred straight people you might have a point, but you don't now.

Wow where can one get one. I just love to decorate!!!! hahahahaha

[Michael Hardner]

Wow where can one get one. I just love to decorate!!!! hahahahaha

I supposed you DID say I was laughable. Glad to help make your day, oh happy man.

[Spike22]

You did thanks...

[betsy]

Hollus:

I think thats a rediculous comparison. Homosexual nights descriminatory? So I guees Ladies nights would be targeted aswell. Show me how heterosexuals are descriminated and I will tell you how I feel about it.

Ladies night as far as I know doesn't bar men from entering.

Heterosexuals are barred from entering certain clubs in Toronto.

If that's not discrimination then what is ?

You can't open a restaurant with a sign that says 'no gays' can you ?

Years back there was a case about a gym that caters to women only. A man went in and was denied admission.

He made a fuss about it...I don't know though what happened to that case.

[tml12]

Hollus:

I think thats a rediculous comparison. Homosexual nights descriminatory? So I guees Ladies nights would be targeted aswell. Show me how heterosexuals are descriminated and I will tell you how I feel about it.

Ladies night as far as I know doesn't bar men from entering.

Heterosexuals are barred from entering certain clubs in Toronto.

If that's not discrimination then what is ?

You can't open a restaurant with a sign that says 'no gays' can you ?

Years back there was a case about a gym that caters to women only. A man went in and was denied admission.

He made a fuss about it...I don't know though what happened to that case.

There are men's golf clubs which bar women entering...

[August1991]

Auguste:

Challenge to which law exactly? Is there a law that forbids you from discriminating against Pepsi in favour of Coke? Are you not free to discriminate against a Jewish shopkeeper and choose a Korean one instead? Are you not free to be sexist and have your hair cut by a woman instead of a man simply because you prefer a woman?

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post. If you read it again, you'll see I stated that these drinking establishments have 'HOMOSEXUAL ONLY' nights. That means STRAIGHTS NOT ALLOWED IN.

They ask you if you're straight and if you say 'yes' you can't come in.

I understood your point perfectly. I was noting that a voluntary transaction requires two parties. For some reason, you believe that one party is free to discriminate but the other is not. You are free to choose any restaurant you want, but a restaurant owner for some reason does not have the same freedom.

Canada's Charter of Rights places restrictions only on how the government can treat us. It says nothing about how we treat one another. You are free to discriminate in your choice of spouse, hairdresser, friends, shopkeeper and so on.

Not true, though, if you are serving the public. I don't think you can legally put a 'NO BLACKS' sign in front of your store.

There was a case of a bar that kicked out two women for kissing and they were taken to the tribunal and told it wasn't legal.

The Charter of Rights has nothing to do with such cases. Your example of the two women in the Albertan bar would have been brought before Alberta's human rights tribunal. In fact, I think the two women just crossed the street to a different bar.

As to a sign that says "NO BLACKS", successful restaurants generally do not refuse good customers with good money. (Thelonious will note that greed and the profit motive are perhaps the best protection against arbitrary discrimination.)

The Charter protects individuals against arbitrary government actions.

----

I'll add again that Canada's human rights tribunals now have long backloads and most cases don't get seen for a year or more. Tribunal members often have an agenda and knowing how to attract the media, the tribunals usually are more symbol than substance.

[geoffrey]

In regards to bars and the such. If you operate a privately owned business, you should be free to choose to let whoever you want in.

If the gays want a club, then they can have a club.

If the straights want a club, then they can have a club.

I think it would be really hard to tell in most cases anyways. Why they'd like to go to each other's clubs is beyond me?

Public institutions have to be open to anyone's use. Private clubs and the such should have no such restriction. No one should tell me who I must do business with.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not interested so much in what should/shouldn't be legal as much as what is/isn't legal.

Auguste - are you saying that there's no law on the books preventing businesses from barring customers on the basis of race, etc. ? Or is it that you are just more interested in the question of what should/shouldn't be allowed ?

I marched for gay rights, and was persecuted for standing up for gay friends of mine, but I'm apalled that these clubs would be allowed to operate with a 'no straights' policy. It feels like I'm the only one who thinks that here.

[betsy]

In regards to bars and the such. If you operate a privately owned business, you should be free to choose to let whoever you want in.

That's why I'm so against the smoke ban! If there's a warning that warns that it is a smoking place, then people can either choose to go in or take their business elsewhere.