MYANMAR/BURMA: Riot Police Set Upon Protesting Monks

[Higgly]

Apparently the Chinese are coming around. I just saw a BBC interview with Gambari, the UN's special envoy to Burma and he said that the Chinese were instrumental in getting him face time with Aung San Suu Kyi. Could be the Burmese generals are on shakey ground. The Chinese are trying to put on their good face for the Olympics and this could be more attention than they want to see right now. However, the crackdown continues with raids on homes and monasteries after the curfew (when there will be no witnesses). Who do these guys think they're fooling?

I continue to be very disappointed with the timid face that ASEAN is showing. Very poor performance, especially by Singapore.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Higgly

[buffycat]

Higgly, what else can you fill in wrt to the ASEAN?

Thanks in advance - I don't think any of us have the real scope on how badly things are going there.

Gosthacked - I agree of all Monks - buddhist monks. No matter what else this is really bad PR. (Idon't mean that callously either - though I think you know that ).

[Higgly]

Here is the Wikipedia article on ASEAN. Burma (Myanmar) joined in the late 1990s. It enjoys great trade benefits from its membership.

If China starts shaking the ground under Burma, these guys will follow like barking dogs. They are afraid of China because it is the 900 pound gorilla in the room. I believe that this provides them with an opportunity to make China sit up and take notice. This is a tipping point for East Asia. The Olympics. The Burma situation. This might get interesting.

GostHacked has it right. When the monks start getting upset, the fat lady is starting to sing. Maybe this time it won't just go away.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Higgly

[jennie]

UN Urges Myanmar to Start Democracy Push

By EDITH M. LEDERER – 1 hour ago

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The chief U.N. envoy to Myanmar urged the country's military rulers on Friday to strive toward democracy and quickly start talks with detained opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi. The U.S. warned it will press for sanctions if the junta does not act.

"This is an hour of historic opportunity for Myanmar," Ibrahim Gambari told the U.N. Security Council following his four-day trip to the country after the government's crackdown on peaceful demonstrators and Buddhist monks. "To delay the prospect of a peaceful, prosperous and democratic Myanmar is to deny it to those who deserve it most, the people of Myanmar."

A dozen red-robed monks from Myanmar who now live in the United States sat in the front row of the visitors gallery listening intently.

Gambari said he is "cautiously encouraged" that the country's military ruler, Senior Gen. Than Shwe, said he would meet Suu Kyi "although with certain conditions." They include her giving up calls for confronting the government and for imposing sanctions against it, Myanmar state media said.

Gambari stressed, however, that U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has called for talks without any preconditions to overcome "the high level of mistrust" between Than Shwe and Suu Kyi.

"From my own conversations (with Suu Kyi), she appears to be very anxious to have a proper dialogue," Gambari told reporters afterward. ...

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gpi9eSF...I94EmgD8S3G28G0

[jennie]

Apparently the Chinese are coming around. I just saw a BBC interview with Gambari, the UN's special envoy to Burma and he said that the Chinese were instrumental in getting him face time with Aung San Suu Kyi. Could be the Burmese generals are on shakey ground. The Chinese are trying to put on their good face for the Olympics and this could be more attention than they want to see right now. However, the crackdown continues with raids on homes and monasteries after the curfew (when there will be no witnesses). Who do these guys think they're fooling?

I continue to be very disappointed with the timid face that ASEAN is showing. Very poor performance, especially by Singapore.

AHA! Breathe a word about the Olympics and China responds. Good to know. Glad to hear it.

Not glad to hear about the continued crackdown, though.

Buddhist Monks. The film of that ... in our time ... right now.

We'll watch the movie and go 'How could that happen' but it still is ... right now.

kinda makes ya feel helpless eh

Edited October 6, 2007 by jennie

[myata]

Not as much of "concern" for many as "Palestine" is. Though Tibetans are a real indigenous people and "Palestinians" are not.

Searching this entire thread, I failed to find anybody mentioning Palestine before you. Maybe this constant urge to relate to that sorry matter points at some hidden insecurity? Deeply buried sense of guilt? Suppressed, on the consciuos level, by rationalization - i.e. some pseudo logical explanation as to why "we" are always right (even when we look, walk, and squak like we're wrong) and, by definition, "they" - wrong.

[myata]

AHA! Breathe a word about the Olympics and China responds. Good to know. Glad to hear it.

Not glad to hear about the continued crackdown, though.

Buddhist Monks. The film of that ... in our time ... right now.

We'll watch the movie and go 'How could that happen' but it still is ... right now.

kinda makes ya feel helpless eh

The first step should be to expose any party that supports (with aid, technical training, etc) this (and in general context, any other) brutal regime. Consequently, attempt to make it, by any means available, to withdraw or at least reduce that support.

However, I'm doubtlful that external pressure in itself, whatever side it may come from, will bring about immediate change. Like illness, these closed dictatorships (North Corea, Burma, like many others before) will have to run their course and will collapse because of internal breakdown, corruption, not because someone told them to stop.

On the positive side, keeping the pressure up will definitely speed up the process.

[buffycat]

Thank you Higgly - off to read more about ASEAN now.

[Higgly]

Geoffrey York has a very good article in the Globe and Mail (Saturday, Oct 6) about the people pulling the strings behind the Burma situation. He is saying that Burma is getting support from India, China, and Thailand. Nature abhors a vacuum, any physicist will tell you; into the vacuum created by the western sanctions against Burma, these guys have stepped in.

So here we have 3 countries that are making megabucks out of the Western economy and they do not respect democracy. Hmmm.... He says that China has won several hydro electic mega-projects in Burma. So how is Burma paying China? Enquiring minds want to know. There has been a lot of press about poppy production in Afghanistan. Funny nobody ever mentions the Golden Triangle, huh?

[bush_cheney2004]

Geoffrey York has a very good article in the Globe and Mail (Saturday, Oct 6) about the people pulling the strings behind the Burma situation. He is saying that Burma is getting support from India, China, and Thailand. Nature abhors a vacuum, any physicist will tell you; into the vacuum created by the western sanctions against Burma, these guys have stepped in.

So here we have 3 countries that are making megabucks out of the Western economy and they do not respect democracy. Hmmm.... He says that China has won several hydro electic mega-projects in Burma. So how is Burma paying China? Enquiring minds want to know. There has been a lot of press about poppy production in Afghanistan. Funny nobody ever mentions the Golden Triangle, huh?

Maybe Geoffrey York should do better homework....as in Canada's Ivanhoe Mines working with Myanmar's military junta in a joint venture for copper.

http://www.amnesty.ca/take_action/actions/..._violations.php

http://www.ivanhoe-mines.com/s/TruthAndLie...tations-In-Ac...

Edited October 7, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Higgly]

As an afterthought, I think the Globe and Mail deserves great credit for the attention it has been paying to the situation in Burma. This is a democracy - shit or get off the pot situation; the Post has more or less ignored it and the Star has only given it lip service.

I do not undertsand why we can't have a media forum here. The media control what the public sees and it is critical to politics. What am I missing?

Edited October 7, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

Maybe Geoffrey York should do better homework....as in Canada's Ivanhoe Mines working with Myanmar's military junta in a joint venture for copper.

http://www.amnesty.ca/take_action/actions/..._violations.php

http://www.ivanhoe-mines.com/s/TruthAndLie...tations-In-Ac...

Good point. I guess this is how they get the money to pay for those hydro projects. Hmmm.... Talisman Energy has had a multi-year discount on its stock price because it once had production in Sudan. There is nothing that hits company execs like a sell-off in the company stock because so much of their compensation is in company stock. Hmmm...

Mwhaa ha ha...

Edited October 7, 2007 by Higgly

[bush_cheney2004]

As an afterthought, I think the Globe and Mail deserves great credit for the attention it has been paying to the situation in Burma. This is a democracy - shit or get off the pot situation; the Post has more or less ignored it and the Star has only given it lip service.

But I'm sure they published stock reports for Ivanhoe Mines (IVN on the NYSE):

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=IVN&t=5y

Ivanhoe Mines, Ltd., together with its subsidiaries, engages in the exploration and development of mineral properties, primarily copper, gold, molybdenum, and uranium. It owns interests in the Oyu Tolgoi project located in Aimag province of Omnigov, Mongolia; and the Nariin Sukhait project situated in south-central Mongolia. The company also holds interests in the Tsagaan Tolgoi project comprising two coal licenses located in south-central Mongolia; seven coal exploration licenses covering approximately 665,000 hectares in Mongolia; the Cloncurry project that comprise an area of 2,140 square kilometers in northwestern Queensland, Australia; and the Bakyrchik gold project in Kazakhstan. In addition, Ivanhoe Mines owns interest in the Monywa, a joint venture copper project located in Myanmar. The company was founded in 1994. It was formerly known as Indochina Goldfields, Ltd. and changed its name to Ivanhoe Mines, Ltd. in 1999. Ivanhoe Mines is based in Whitehorse, Canada.

Looks like business has been good, including the Myanmar joint venture.

Edited October 7, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Higgly]

Sure they did. That is part of their reporting on the market. Nothing personal. Just business.

But watch that stock price. Mwa hah ha....

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure they did. That is part of their reporting on the market. Nothing personal. Just business.

Correct...because that is what matters most....business.

[Higgly]

Correct...because that is what matters most....business.

There is a scene I remember from the Sopranos. The gang has just put way a big feast at a restaurant. For gang hierarchy reasons, one of the members gets stuck with the bill, which is over a thousand dollars. He doesn't like being stuck with the bill and he leaves a $27 tip.

The waiter comes after them out in the parking lot. "Was there something wrong with the service?", he asks. "I have kids in college." He scowls and turns to walk away from them.

One of the Soprano gang picks up a rock and hurls it at the waiter. Hits him in the skull from behind. The guy goes down and is lying on the ground shaking. Clearly there is serious brain damage.

One of the Sopranos looks around to see if anyone is watching, pulls out his gun, and executes the guy at point blank range.

Is this the kind of business you were referring to? There is an expression you hear a lot on this show. "It's just business." And this show has won many awards.

Is that the business you are thinking about in Burma? \Nothing personal. Just business?

Edited October 7, 2007 by Higgly

[bush_cheney2004]

There is a scene I remember from the Sopranos. The gang has just put way a big feast at a restaurant. For gang hierarchy reasons, one of the members gets stuck with the bill, which is over a thousand dollars. He doesn't like being stuck with the bill and he leaves a $27 tip.

The waiter comes after them out in the parking lot. "Was there something wrong with the service?", he asks. "I have kids in college." He scowls and turns to walk away from them.

One of the Soprano gang picks up a rock and hurls it at the waiter. Hits him in the skull from behind. The guy goes down and is lying on the ground shaking. Clearly there is serious brain damage.

One of the Sopranos looks around to see if anyone is watching, pulls out his gun, and executes the guy at point blank range.

Is this the kind of business you were referring to?

No, that is the business of selling American cable television productions to Canadians. They eat that kind of crap up.

The business I am talking about involves 40% of the mining capital in the world trampling all over "precious" human rights.

[Higgly]

..."precious" human rights.

Thanks. I knew you'd understand.

[bush_cheney2004]

Thanks. I knew you'd understand.

While I am confident you don't understand....blame the "west"...blame the "east"...blame the Bush administration.

[Higgly]

While I am confident you don't understand....blame the "west"...blame the "east"...blame the Bush administration.

Blame anybody who puts business above human rights. I knew you'd understand.

[Sulaco]

Blame anybody who puts business above human rights. I knew you'd understand.

Hey hey - to be fair I am sure Higgly concentrates on cleaning up his backyard. I am sure he spends hours lobbying the Canuckie government to reign in mining giants like Talisman or Placer Dome - even when the government is Liberal - because that is where Higgly has any power of the vote. I am certain that he concentrates there rather than whining on this board about Bush's evil. Counless letters leave Higgly's home with addresses of various MPs, mine corp officials, oxfam and other interested parties, in order to reign in Canadian companies' destructive policies.

[Higgly]

I am certain that he concentrates there rather than whining on this board...

If I am whining here, then you are whining here. Enough said.

[jbg]

Too bad this is in danger of slipping into another thread about the Middle East, but Palestinians not indigenous to Palestine? Come on, JBG.

This is a thread about Burma. Let's try to keep it that way.

No, Higgly. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy.

[ScottSA]

Hey hey - to be fair I am sure Higgly concentrates on cleaning up his backyard. I am sure he spends hours lobbying the Canuckie government to reign in mining giants like Talisman or Placer Dome - even when the government is Liberal - because that is where Higgly has any power of the vote. I am certain that he concentrates there rather than whining on this board about Bush's evil. Counless letters leave Higgly's home with addresses of various MPs, mine corp officials, oxfam and other interested parties, in order to reign in Canadian companies' destructive policies.

[Higgly]

No, Higgly. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy.

Elaborate please? You brought the Middle East into this. Where is the hypocrisy?