MYANMAR/BURMA: Riot Police Set Upon Protesting Monks

[kengs333]

And we use articles from news sites to support our views. That is a forum. Get used to it. Articles are quoted all the time. Get used to it. If you think it is spam, then ignore every poster who does this. You are gonna find this place boring if you do that however.

HOWEVER, Burma does not exist anymore. it is now called Myanmar. Sanctions on Burma don't equate to anything at all.

All in all the peacefull protests will go on, and that will bring change to the country. Or the place will go into the bucket. Maybe it already has. Do you really need to use automacit weapons on Bhuddist Monks?

I think there's a difference between referencing news articles, etc. to support one's views and cutting and pasting e-mails/articles without comment. I watch the news, read the paper, and visit on-line news sources enough to know what's going on. I think we all do, don't we? So why can't she just post her opinions--granted, they can be rather eccentric at times--instead?

[kengs333]

Unfortunately justice systems, like ours for example, do not prevent crime, but process crimes already committed. Thus, international justice may be working well, but it will work after the fact.

My, my, grannyrants, that's an interesting comment. One way to reduce crime is to eliminate the source of the crime, even if it means resorting to what may seem like draconian measures. Let's say, for instance, there is a neighbourhood that is terrorized by a bunch of criminals who hold up in bunkers, hideouts and such. The deal drugs, pimp, commit armed robberies, commit acts of violence. The police know who and where they are. Would it not be proper in your opinion for the police to act in a preventative manner by ridding the community of these criminals?

[buffycat]

My, my, grannyrants, that's an interesting comment.One way to reduce crime is to eliminate the source of the crime, even if it means resorting to what may seem like draconian measures. Let's say, for instance, there is a neighbourhood that is terrorized by a bunch of criminals who hold up in bunkers, hideouts and such. The deal drugs, pimp, commit armed robberies, commit acts of violence. The police know who and where they are. Would it not be proper in your opinion for the police to act in a preventative manner by ridding the community of these criminals?

I bolded this line - because this is where I think you make a good point: one must eliminate the SOURCE of the crime.

Sadly you lost me on the rest.

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm no supporter of crime - but rounding up a bunch of miscreants is not addressing the SOURCE. The sources are social, economical and wrt drugs judicial.

Go ahead though, round 'em up, toss em out and a new crop will come up tomorrow. Until other issues are addressed the cycle will continue.

[GostHacked]

My, my, grannyrants, that's an interesting comment. One way to reduce crime is to eliminate the source of the crime, even if it means resorting to what may seem like draconian measures. Let's say, for instance, there is a neighbourhood that is terrorized by a bunch of criminals who hold up in bunkers, hideouts and such. The deal drugs, pimp, commit armed robberies, commit acts of violence. The police know who and where they are. Would it not be proper in your opinion for the police to act in a preventative manner by ridding the community of these criminals?

Ever see a pissed off angry bhuddist monk? They are being portrayed as the bad guys over the Military Junta.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_junta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Peace_a...lopment_Council It is a military dictatorship.

[jbg]

BURMA: Riot Police Set Upon Protesting Monks

IPS - Special <[email protected]>

4:43 pm (3 minutes ago)

Burma Marches On

*****

Call for Urgent International Talks on Burma at UN

Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON, Sep 25 (IPS) - Amid growing anti-government demonstrations in Burma, the International Crisis Group called Tuesday for U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to convene urgent talks with the foreign ministers of China, India, and Singapore, the current chair of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, to promote a peaceful settlement to the political crisis there.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=39405

Another bang-up job done by the UN. The fact that the UNSC is frozen by the Chinese veto, and the GA is useless since so many states are as bad as, or worse, than Myanmar shows that the UN is a total waste of money.

Frankly, if the UN-affiliated NGO's were gone, maybe being a dictator would be a bit less fun, since they'd have to go to their own people to fill their Swiss bank accounts. Not an enjoyable or safe undertaking. Getting a check from a UN agency, the IMF or World Bank, or whatever alphabet agencies run by everyone and no one, is so much safer and more lucrative. Bilateral aid has the advantage of accountability.

I doubt that without such succor the dictators in Myanmar would desire power so much.

[jbg]

Amazing. In this entire thread there are two posts that are on topic. The rest are personal attacks. Everybody wants to take on the big guy.

Good point. I dislike na-na-boo-boo or nicky-nicky nine doors threads.

And here I was proud of the fact that I could type Aun San Suu Kyi's name without having to look it up. Hell, even JBG can't spell Ahmadinejad.

Quite true.

[buffycat]

Well it seems that thousands of Monks have been slaughtered now and left to rot in the jungles.

This is a real tragedy.

Daily Mail

Burma: Thousands dead in massacre of the monks dumped in the jungle

By MARCUS OSCARSSON - More by this author » Last updated at 15:04pm on 1st October 2007

Comments Comments (69)

Thousands of protesters are dead and the bodies of hundreds of executed monks have been dumped in the jungle, a former intelligence officer for Burma's ruling junta has revealed.

The most senior official to defect so far, Hla Win, said: "Many more people have been killed in recent days than you've heard about. The bodies can be counted in several thousand."

Mr Win, who spoke out as a Swedish diplomat predicted that the revolt has failed, said he fled when he was ordered to take part in a massacre of holy men. He has now reached the border with Thailand.

****

Okay, so outside of Israel, China and Russia who else is arming the Junta?

[Higgly]

Anyone know why China thinks it's in their interests to back a brutal regime almost unconditionally? They're blocking any security council resolution against Burma. - My guess is the thought of a another possible democracy in their midst makes them scared.

Yes! The Chinese are another culprit in this mess. The Singaporeans are selling them military technology and the Chinese are using them for cheap labour. Hard to believe that anybody can work cheaper than the Chinese, but there you have it.

[Higgly]

She's just pasting stuff from one of the multitude of activist sites that she visits, a very annoying practice that really is no better than spam. Why people like this aren't banned is beyond me. This is a message forum, a place where people discuss issues--ie., they formulate their own opinions.

edit:

okay, it's from an e-mailed newsletter; whatever the case, annoying as hell.

Come on. She puts up a topic for discussion. So what?

[Higgly]

It all comes down to that what was discussed many many times: can the world have / is it mature enough to have a stable credible and functioning international justice system. From all I can say, the clear answer is "No". Nobody is guilty of that more than somebody else, just human society as a whole not ready for that. These situations will continue to happen.

Yes! An international court! Absolutely. The body of law that it can rule on is thin, but build it and they will come! Very good point.

[Higgly]

Good point. I dislike na-na-boo-boo or nicky-nicky nine doors threads.Quite true.

JBG, you are a mensch.

[jennie]

Well it seems that thousands of Monks have been slaughtered now and left to rot in the jungles.

This is a real tragedy.

Daily Mail

Burma: Thousands dead in massacre of the monks dumped in the jungle

By MARCUS OSCARSSON - More by this author » Last updated at 15:04pm on 1st October 2007

Comments Comments (69)

Thousands of protesters are dead and the bodies of hundreds of executed monks have been dumped in the jungle, a former intelligence officer for Burma's ruling junta has revealed.

The most senior official to defect so far, Hla Win, said: "Many more people have been killed in recent days than you've heard about. The bodies can be counted in several thousand."

Mr Win, who spoke out as a Swedish diplomat predicted that the revolt has failed, said he fled when he was ordered to take part in a massacre of holy men. He has now reached the border with Thailand.

****

Okay, so outside of Israel, China and Russia who else is arming the Junta?

Good question ... and what can we do about it in the meantime while the Security Council solves its problem?

The revolt has been violently suppressed, but it has not failed. I would predict it is now more universal, and there will be a lot of refugees.

Can we boycott goods from those countries that arm the oppressors?

[jbg]

Yes! An international court! Absolutely. The body of law that it can rule on is thin, but build it and they will come! Very good point.

If you get arrested for favoring the NDP are you the first volunteer for "trial" in that kangaroo court?

[jbg]

JBG, you are a mensch.

I'll take that as a compliment. I hope you meant it that way rather than sarcastically. I will assume you did.

[buffycat]

Good question ... and what can we do about it in the meantime while the Security Council solves its problem?

I wish I had an answer wrt Burma, I imagine that it would take a concerted effort on the rest of the World's leaders to do something - but since when have our leaders ever, ever listened to the populace?

WRT the Security Council - it needs a complete and utter overhaul. The use and abuse of the veto powers renders the organisation pretty much useless - and anyway - who actually ever listens to them?

colour me cynical, but I'm not holding my breath for any kind of action any time soon.

[jbg]

WRT the Security Council - it needs a complete and utter overhaul. The use and abuse of the veto powers renders the organisation pretty much useless - and anyway - who actually ever listens to them?

Aboliition of the UN would be better; if the money thus freed up were used to helpe poor people rather than kill them.

[myata]

Aboliition of the UN would be better;

UNSC more like it. I've no problems with functioning organizations like WHO, or general forum to discuss current events like General Assembly.

It the security / power framework that's lacking any credibility, used to legitimize some actions, and ignored when it couldn't legitimize others. In my view it's all but exhausted itself and need to be, plain and simple, disbanded.

[Michael Hardner]

Higgly,

The point is that the west does nothing about democracy unless it's own interests are at stake.

Are you advocating military action ?

[Higgly]

Higgly,

Are you advocating military action ?

No. What would you do? Invade Burma? Then the Chinese come in with a counter-force. There have been calls for a boycott of the Chinese Olympics. Now that could make things interesting. Especially if somebody like George Bush were to back it. Might actually save his bacon, image-wise. Maybe there are threats of this being made along diplomatic channels. Some sort of action against ASEAN might be useful. Some of the ASEAN countries have been wagging their fingers at Burma - the Philippines, for example. A little pressure on Singapore might go a long way. They are very, very influential - not only in South-East Asia, but also on China. Deng Xiao Peng once opined that he could foresee China developing as Singapore has. Singapore is the mouse that roared in East Asia. A lot of credit to them and to Lee Kuan Yew, but they need to put their money where their mouth is on democracy. Talk to a Singaporean about action on Burma, and they wil say that they are worried that it might piss off China and "de-stabilize the region". Singapore, being a very small state, is always worried about stability in the region.

I seriously doubt that any of Burma's supporters are going to want to bet the farm on Burma and the Junta. My take on the China/Burma connection is that it is a strategic client state. There is not a lot of other value there - maybe some good rubies and emeralds, and cheap labour. I think it might be just the right pressure point for the west to prove that it means what it says when it talks about freedom and democracy. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but that's my take.

And no JBG, I was not being sarcastic.

Edited October 3, 2007 by Higgly

[jbg]

UNSC more like it. I've no problems with functioning organizations like WHO, or general forum to discuss current events like General Assembly.

An equivalent idea would be a government subsidy to MLW posters to gather in person in annual, seven (7) month long convention to debate the issues we discuss here. All expenses paid, no need to take a real job.

How about it? That's about as much merit as the GA has.

[jennie]

There have been calls for a boycott of the Chinese Olympics. Now that could make things interesting. Especially if somebody like George Bush were to back it. Might actually save his bacon, image-wise. I think it might be just the right pressure point for the west to prove that it means what it says when it talks about freedom and democracy. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but that's my take.

I agree ... a good pressure point ... the Olympics, already called the genocide Olympics because of Chinese oil interests in Darfur. Tibet also is an ongoing concern.

[jbg]

I agree ... a good pressure point ... the Olympics, already called the genocide Olympics because of Chinese oil interests in Darfur. Tibet also is an ongoing concern.

Not as much of "concern" for many as "Palestine" is. Though Tibetans are a real indigenous people and "Palestinians" are not. Edited October 5, 2007 by jbg

[Higgly]

Not as much of "concern" for many as "Palestine" is. Though Tibetans are a real indigenous people and "Palestinians" are not.

Too bad this is in danger of slipping into another thread about the Middle East, but Palestinians not indigenous to Palestine? Come on, JBG.

This is a thread about Burma. Let's try to keep it that way.

[buffycat]

Too bad this is in danger of slipping into another thread about the Middle East, but Palestinians not indigenous to Palestine? Come on, JBG.

This is a thread about Burma. Let's try to keep it that way.

Hear hear!!

Thanks Higgly. Bout time too.

Time would be better spent trying to think of ways to address those parties responsible for supporting the current junta. If that happens to be China then so be it - put some social pressure on them - it can work.

I think the biggest mistake they made was attacking the monks themselves. These men are reveared in ways most of us cannot begin to understand. This has opened a wound that won't be shut.

[GostHacked]

Hear hear!!

Thanks Higgly. Bout time too.

Time would be better spent trying to think of ways to address those parties responsible for supporting the current junta. If that happens to be China then so be it - put some social pressure on them - it can work.

I think the biggest mistake they made was attacking the monks themselves. These men are reveared in ways most of us cannot begin to understand. This has opened a wound that won't be shut.

That is what I do not get either. I even hold monks in high regard myself. I am not a fan of religion in any way shape or form, but it is the Monk philosophy that really awes me at times. People looking for that ultimate inner peace. Monks for crying out loud. MONKS!! BHUDDIST MONKS!! How does one live with themselves to slaughter these people?