The God who wasn't there

[kuzadd]

http://www.thegodmovie.com/

watch the trailer.

"In this provocative, critically acclaimed documentary, you will discover:

* The early founders of Christianity seem wholly unaware of the idea of a human Jesus

* The Jesus of the Gospels bears a striking resemblance to other ancient heroes and the figureheads of pagan savior cults

* Contemporary Christians are largely ignorant of the origins of their religion

* Fundamentalism is as strong today as it ever has been, with an alarming 44% of Americans believing Jesus will return to earth in their lifetimes

* And God simply isn't there"

This is an excellent flick!

Cybercoma, drea, b-cat, and anyone else, who can accept there 'perceptions being challenged'

I have this movie, I've watch it and lent it out.

[cybercoma]

I have it, it's an interesting historical look at Jesus and the gospels.

[ScottSA]

I dare someone to make a movie claiming that Mohammed never existed. The cars'll burn all over Europe...and maybe even Dearborn!

[sharkman]

I was thinking that something wasn't right in the Moral and Religious section, but I just couldn't put my finger on it, and then I saw this thread, and all was right in the world again. Kuzy has introduced her anti-christian thread for the week.

[cybercoma]

I was thinking that something wasn't right in the Moral and Religious section, but I just couldn't put my finger on it, and then I saw this thread, and all was right in the world again. Kuzy has introduced her anti-christian thread for the week.

Neither the thread, nor the video are anti-Christian. It is a documentary examining the timeline and history of Jesus Christ and the gospels.

But thanks for jumping to conclusion, as usual, we wouldn't want anything to be out of place in this section.

[jefferiah]

http://www.thegodmovie.com/

watch the trailer.

"In this provocative, critically acclaimed documentary, you will discover:

* The early founders of Christianity seem wholly unaware of the idea of a human Jesus

* The Jesus of the Gospels bears a striking resemblance to other ancient heroes and the figureheads of pagan savior cults

* Contemporary Christians are largely ignorant of the origins of their religion

* Fundamentalism is as strong today as it ever has been, with an alarming 44% of Americans believing Jesus will return to earth in their lifetimes

* And God simply isn't there"

This is an excellent flick!

Cybercoma, drea, b-cat, and anyone else, who can accept there 'perceptions being challenged'

The early founders of Christianity. Hmm I haven't watched the film but I assume you mean the Nicean Council. There are surviving New Testaments texts that are older than that. There is a Book of John in a musem in England dated to the first century. John was an early founder of Christianity. And he wrote that the "Word became flesh".

By the striking resemblance between pagan saviour cults, you must be referring to the whole Mithraism thing. But Christianity has more to do with following the pattern from the Old Testament. All Christian themes are based on Jewish observances, like the Passover. Jesus became the Passover Lamb, etc etc. What I would say is likely the case with the allegations that Christianity is stolen from Mithraism, is that skeptics are using Mithraism as an example of a pre-Christian faith while ignoring the fact that what remains of it to be seen today are its post-Christian form. The virgin birth etc etc were predicted in Isaiah so it did not need to be borrowed from Mithraism. What is more likely is that the cult of Mithra (in Rome) evolved into a Christianized form after Christianity began spreading throughout Rome?

Mithraism did exist before it became popular in Rome. Mithra is supposedly mentioned in the Vedas and of course in the Zoroastrian Avesta.

Most Mithraic scholars disagree with the so-called similarities and parallels between Jesus and Mithra---ie Mithra was never born of a virgin, but of a rock and as a full grown man. Alot of these so-called facts about Mithraism do not come from Mithraic scholars. Alot of these claims are made with no backing at all. None of the texts which mention Mithra ever refer to his death. Most of these supposed similarities come from much later writings and speculations or even a very very very liberal interpretations of the words in ancient texts. These things get printed, we read them, and automatically we believe it is true.

It is sort of like the fact that everyone believed the Earth was flat when until Columbus proved em all wrong. It's not a fact. We all have heard how Columbus was dissuaded from going across the Atlantic because he would fall off the edge of the Earth. This story was created a few hundred years later by a man named Washington Irving. The argument against Columbus sailing the Atlantic to get to India was not about the sphericity or flatness of the Earth, but about the distance across the circumference, which the scholars at the Universidad de Salamanca insisted he had greatly underestimated. And they were right. The flat earth story is a myth. People accepted the world was spherical for ages.

Clement, Origen, Ambrose, Augustine and other very early Christians accepted that the Earth was a globe. And I believe it was widely accepted before Christ as well. I think it was Aristotle who established this. And it would have been pretty hard to get any kind of education A.D. without coming across this.

Aside from Mithraism, there were other mystery cults which people draw parallels to, but the similarities are only striking when you really do a good job of exaggerating them.

None of the "savior gods" gave their lives for others or for the remission of sins. The death of the figures in mystery cults always take place in very fairy story-like settings while the story of Jesus takes place in Israel during Roman occupation. King Herod Antipas and Archelaus are mentioned in the New Testament, along with Pontius Pilate. Even the comparisons to resurrections are greatly skewed. Unless you count reincarnations or the conversions of their bodies to other forms as resurrection.

This whole idea or pagan influence on Christianity is nothing new, either. But I think if you do enough reading (even if you are not a Christian) you will find it quite easy to debunk the idea that Christianity was related to the pagan mystery cults. Anyways I am going to do some reading on the subject tonight.

Edited August 8, 2007 by jefferiah

[kuzadd]

I have it, it's an interesting historical look at Jesus and the gospels.

I thought you might and if you didn't you would be interested.

I found out about because I heard the man, who made the movie interviewed and it piqued my interest.

[kuzadd]

btw: cybercoma et al

Have you ever read Joseph Campbell?

I think he is quite brilliant, he did some excellent interviews with Bill Moyers, some time ago, anyway....

His one book touches very much on the theme of this movie.

http://www.amazon.ca/Hero-Thousand-Faces-J...l/dp/0691017840

The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949) is a non-fiction book, and seminal work of comparative mythology by Joseph Campbell. In this publication, Campbell discusses his theory of the journey of the archetypal hero found in world mythologies and religions.

excellent book, I read it some time ago, along with numerous others.

I would think the man who made this movie, was influenced by this work, not soley.

As he is discussing, the very thing Campbell analyzes in his book.

The monomyth, which is the theme that runs through this movie.

Also, did you watch the movie zeitgeist, you can google it, anyway, at the beginning, there is a part of that movie, that touches on this topic also, and makes some seriously interesting links between astrology and the Christ story.

[kuzadd]

This whole idea or pagan influence on Christianity is nothing new, either. But I think if you do enough reading (even if you are not a Christian) you will find it quite easy to debunk the idea that Christianity was related to the pagan mystery cults. Anyways I am going to do some reading on the subject tonight.

actually to the contrary, if you do enough reading you find that Christianity was very much related to the early pagan religions. In fact jumping right on out of them.

If I may ask, what are you reading?

[jefferiah]

No, I already explained this to you Kuzadd. The similarities between pagan mystery cults and Christianity are very skewed. Nowhere is Mithra said to have been born of a virgin or born on December 25th. There is no mention of his death. There is no source which says he had 12 disciples. There is no documentation of shepherds attending his birth. Actually there is very very little documentation on the subject of Mithra or Mithras. Alot of this stuff you read on websites claiming the similarities is very very very skewed and ridiculous. Most of these claims are based on stretching what sources you have. As I said Mithraic scholars do not even accept this nonsense. And also even though the pagan religions pre date Christianity, alot of the material they are citing is not pre Christian writing----but actually pagan writings from about 400 AD. They beg borrow and steal from every pagan religion to find a similarity, and where the similarities aren't they invent them through very liberal interpretation.

Christianity is based on Judaism. The death of Jesus parallels the death of the Passover Lamb. The entire Last Supper is based on the Passover. This is where the real striking parallels are. And Messianic Jews are the best to explain them.

The mention of pagan Baptismal ceremonies also require a great deal of stretching. The comparison is often made between Osiris being drowned in his coffin. Somehow this now becomes the equivalent of Christian baptism. Or the agrarian mention of cycles and rebirth of vegetation becomes Ressurection????

I actually ended up spending no time reading about it last night as it was almost 2 am.

Edited August 8, 2007 by jefferiah

[kuzadd]

The monomyth, including Jesus, has more to do with Mithra, but, I believe Mithra was born of a virgin, from what I have read.

I referred to a movie zeitgeist the first section has to do with religions

Here are the resources used to put together the first part

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/sources.htm

Massey, Gerald - The Historic Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree

Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning Book Tree, 1998

Acharya S - The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press

Massey, Gerald - Ancient Egypt: Light of the World, Kessinger Publishing

Churchward, Albert -The Origin and Evolution of Religion, The Book Tree

Acharya S - Suns of God, Adventures Unlimited Press

Murdock, D.M. - Who was Jesus?, Steller House Publishing

Allegro, John - The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, Prometheus Books

Frazer, Sir James: The Golden Bough, Touchstone Pub., 1890

Maxwell, Tice, Snow - That Old Time Religion, The Book Tree

Rolleston, Frances: Mazzaroth, Rivingtons, Waterloo Place, 1862

Cumont, Franz: Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans Cosimo Classics 1912

King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman

Fideler, David: Jesus Christ, Sun of God Quest Books, 1993

Berry, Gerald: Religions Of The World, Barnes & Noble Pub., 1965

Leedom, Tim C - The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read, TS Books

Paine, Thomas - The Age of Reason

Wheless, Joseph: Forgery in Christianity: A Documented Record of the Foundations of the Christian Religion 1930

Remsburg, John E. - The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence, Prometheus Books

Massey, Gerald - Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Mysteries of Amenta, Kessinger Publishing

Irvin, Jan & Rutajit, Andrew - Astrotheology and Shamanism, The Book Tree

Doherty, Earl - The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ?, Age of Reason Pub.

Campbell, Joseph - Creative Mythology: The Masks of God, Penguin

Doane, T.W. - Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, Health Research

Maxwell, Jordan: The Light of World (Film Series) IRES

Singh, Madanjeet: The Sun- Symbol of Power and Life, UNESCO, 1993

Flemming, Brian: The God Who Wasn't There (Film) 2005

The Naked Truth (Film) IRES

Jackson, John G. : Christianity Before Christ, American Atheist Press, 1985

inc the original movie, that started this

You can watch the first part here

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5216975979627863972

pertaining to Christianity and more (the monomyth archetype)

Have you read any Joseph campbell

[jefferiah]

Yes and not one of these books you have cited was written in pre-Christian pagan times. There is no actual documentation of Mithras being born of a virgin among the ancient texts. Or of him having 12 disciples. Or of his resurrection. Or of his being born on the 25th of December. Perhaps these authors you are referring to possess some texts they are not sharing with the mainstream of Mithraic scholars. I believe you mention Acharya in your references there. She is the one who claims that lines concerning Mithras being born of the "dawn" somehow tranlates to virgin birth. You are referencing New Age quacks, not genuine scholars. She also mentions Mithraic icons and monuments which simply do not exist. One of them is a temple to a goddess who was claimed to be a virgin. Without source or documentation she simply says this was Mithras' mother. There is no ancient documentation of his death or burial. The mainstream of Mithraic scholars (not Christian scholars) dismiss these claims as highly erroneous.

[M.Dancer]

I am all for a historical look at Christianity, Messianism and classical Judaism, but somehow I suspect that the agenda of many of the producers to be academically challenged. Often their perceptions classical culture are heavily tinted with new age ideas, thoughts that would be completely alien to roman era Jews.

Then there is language. Take Isaiah for example. Did Isaiah say a virgin would conceive or did he say a young unmarried gal? The language(s) at best is ambiguous.

Then there are the similarities to other classical religions. They pop up around the time of the Babylonian exile and continue through the Hellenization of the Jews. Of course it is easy to say that they were influenced by Adonis/Dionysus or Mithranism......but I think it is more likely that they added symbolism or helped articulate thoughts that predate the written bible.

At the time of Christ, Judaism was not a monolithic religion. Some believed in an afterlife and some did not. Some believed in an ultra strict interpretation of the law and some were less literal. And it is fair to say that by 34AD, some in the Jesus community believed that Jesus was Christ, God's anointed who has been elevated to sit beside God and some believed that Jesus was God incarnate......

....then of course with the help of pagan mystery cults would come the Gnostic's around the turn of the 1st century. There particular beliefs range from an ethereal Christ whose earthly presence was a divine illusion to communions resembling a Dionysian orgy.

The topic is broad and deep, somehow I can't expect a movie to do it justice.

[kuzadd]

Yes and not one of these books you have cited was written in pre-Christian pagan times. There is no actual documentation of Mithras being born of a virgin among the ancient texts. Or of him having 12 disciples. Or of his resurrection. Or of his being born on the 25th of December. Perhaps these authors you are referring to possess some texts they are not sharing with the mainstream of Mithraic scholars. I believe you mention Acharya in your references there. She is the one who claims that lines concerning Mithras being born of the "dawn" somehow tranlates to virgin birth. You are referencing New Age quacks, not genuine scholars. She also mentions Mithraic icons and monuments which simply do not exist. One of them is a temple to a goddess who was claimed to be a virgin. Without source or documentation she simply says this was Mithras' mother. There is no ancient documentation of his death or burial. The mainstream of Mithraic scholars (not Christian scholars) dismiss these claims as highly erroneous.

while you may be "hung up" on Mithra, in the initial documentary, the comparisons, are more broad ranging.

Give the original movie a go!

I don't know anything about "new age" stuff.

or even what qualifies as "new age"

and honestly I am not all that interested.

I saw this movie, thought it was good.

checked out more stuff.

had already read numerous Joseph Campbell books, so I was familiar with the concepts being put forward etc.,

[M.Dancer]

while you may be "hung up" on Mithra, in the initial documentary, the comparisons, are more broad ranging.

Give the original movie a go!

I don't know anything about "new age" stuff.

or even what qualifies as "new age"

and honestly I am not all that interested.

I saw this movie, thought it was good.

checked out more stuff.

had already read numerous Joseph Campbell books, so I was familiar with the concepts being put forward etc.,

Joseph Cambell is as new age as it gets without having to be rebirthed, channeled or having a ice tea colonic.

[Bonam]

There was another movie posted in a link in another thread here a few months ago. It offers quite compelling arguments that Jesus is just another sun god. Here's a link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5216975979627863972

[M.Dancer]

The Jesus Seminars is BTW a modern Californian version of Nicean council who have gone through the Gospels (and even the non canon gospels ) to vote (!!!) on which sayings were really Jesus's.....their basis of what was and wasn't a true saying was whether it conformed to their predisposed beliefs regarding Jesus ie: Jesus was not the son of the living God.

Now another telling factor of the Jesus Seminars is it's membership. Very few are biblical scholars (as opposed to divinity students......)

An example of the luminaries include Paul Verhoeven. Yes that Paul. Director of such divine movies as RoboCop, Basic Instinct and ...Show Girls!

[kuzadd]

Joseph Cambell is as new age as it gets without having to be rebirthed, channeled or having a ice tea colonic.

Joseph Campbell is new age???!!!!!!!

Well, that is news to me.

But, whatever!

Perhaps some new age type persons jumped on some of the things he said, but..............

Joseph John Campbell (March 26, 1904 – October 31, 1987) was an American mythology professor, writer, and orator.

With a bunch of books under his belt, many written long before 'new age' became 'trendy.

if he was 'new age' I highly doubt he set out to be.

Edited August 8, 2007 by kuzadd

[M.Dancer]

Joseph Campbell is new age???!!!!!!!

Well, that is news to me.

But, whatever!

Perhaps some new age type persons jumped on some of the things he said, but..............

Joseph John Campbell (March 26, 1904 – October 31, 1987) was an American mythology professor, writer, and orator.

With a bunch of books under his belt, many written long before 'new age' became 'trendy.

if he was 'new age' I highly doubt he set out to be.

It matters not whether you are aware of it, or whether Campbell intended it.

The men's movement

Poet Robert Bly, Michael J. Meade, and others involved in the men's movement have applied and expanded the concept of the hero's journey and the monomyth as a metaphor for personal spiritual and psychological growth, particularly in the mythopoetic men's movement.

Characteristic of the mythopoetic men's movement is a tendency to retell fairy tales and engage in their exegesis as a tool for personal insight. Using frequent references to archetypes as drawn from Jungian analytical psychology, the movement focuses on issues of gender role, gender identity and wellness for modern men. Advocates would often engage in storytelling with music, these acts being seen as a modern extension to a form of "new age shamanism" popularized by Michael Harner at approximately the same time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

The supposedly non-existent theology of Campbell permeates current American religious discussion. Campbell has perhaps more influence on current American religious thought than any other contemporary writer. His books fill the religion sections of major bookstore chains; are required reading in most college and university religion, literature, and philosophy courses; and have become handbooks of spirituality to the New Agers, neo-pagans, Gaia environmentalists, and 1990s religious dabblers.

Probably the most repeated phrase in the New Age circles which has probably caused more pain is "Follow your Bliss"

....and it's Campbell's.

http://logosresourcepages.org/FalseTeachings/campbell.htm

[White Doors]

Good posts Jeff and Dancing man

At the time of Christ, Judaism was not a monolithic religion

but I am pretty sure that Judaism was a monotheistic religion well before the time of Jesus, no?

edit - wait - you said monolithic...

what does that mean?

Edited August 8, 2007 by White Doors

[M.Dancer]

Good posts Jeff and Dancing man

but I am pretty sure that Judaism was a monotheistic religion well before the time of Jesus, no?

edit - wait - you said monolithic...

what does that mean?

Meaning only one school of thought. Today's Judaism is for the most part, monolithic, even with the various sects reformed, conservative, orthodox and ultra orthodox...you wouldn't have much disagreement on canon, dopctine or theology.

Back in 33 AD however, as we know from the Gospels and contemporary sources, Judaism was splintered into very different camps. The Pharisees were those who believed in an after life, the Sadducees didn't. (Ironically, the Sadducee movement, died,) The Essenes were monastic and the Samaritans were outcasts.

Todays Judaism has evolved from the Pharisees.

The Sadducees were best known for their disavowel of an afterlife and the rejection of the Oral tradition but also for their literal interpretation of the laws, something which the rabbinical school rejects.

And on top of that, by 33AD you have the Jews who followed Jesus. Their travels would bring Christianity to the entire mid east, Asia Minor and Europe in less than 70 years.

[White Doors]

gotcha

ok thanks.

[jefferiah]

while you may be "hung up" on Mithra, in the initial documentary, the comparisons, are more broad ranging.

I focused most of my argument on Mithraism because it is the most commonly cited example of a comparison between Christianity and a mystery cult. I am quite aware that there are others but in most cases what you are being fed as direct parallels do not even really exist in those religions. Someone can write a book and say that it is so and of course people will believe, because very few people have the time on hand to read ancient texts. But these arguments have been known for over a hundred years and they have been refuted before. Most of the examples of parallels are very twisted interpretations of the rites of pagan religions, and they amount to the same thing as the Jesus Seminar's 2000 year later revisionism.

I would say Christianity and Judaism had more of a profound effect on them than vice versa. If I am not mistaken a great deal of what is known about these cults in Rome is from sources dating to periods after the establishment of Christianity as a mainstream religious faith. Christianity, as a spawn of Judaism, is very exclusive to outside ideas, whereas Pagan faiths were inclusive. It is blasphemous to blend strange teaching with Judaism or Christianity, but the pagans had no such restrictions. Also another point is that wherever Biblical parallels exist (be they New Testament or Old Testament) the Bible itself actually has the version that reads more like a history, while the other examples have a word of mouth mythology quality to them. The Bible has names of real people, mentions actual historic periods, has geneological lines. This would also lead me to believe that most of the parallels between the Bible and mystery cults (or even Zoroastrianism) are all examples of the effects of Judaism on other faiths. I would say that Zoroastrianism could have likely been influenced by the Jewish during the periods of exile. Given the examples of the writings of both, I think it is a reasonable assumption, since the Jewish were always more detailed.

Now if Christianity were nothing more than a pagan initiatory society they would not have spoken in public to the masses. And if it were an example of acceptable Roman beliefs Christians would not have been persecuted and executed. And I think it exceedingly more likely that Roman pagans would have rather turned a Jewish savior into something Roman, and highly unlikely that they would ever take a Roman cult myth of Mithra and revise it to make a Jewish man the hero, all the meanwhile creating for him a Jewish bloodline, arguments with Pharisees, mention of Herod and Pilate, etc. It makes no sense whatsoever.

[betsy]

The early founders of Christianity. Hmm I haven't watched the film but I assume you mean the Nicean Council. There are surviving New Testaments texts that are older than that. There is a Book of John in a musem in England dated to the first century. John was an early founder of Christianity. And he wrote that the "Word became flesh".

By the striking resemblance between pagan saviour cults, you must be referring to the whole Mithraism thing. But Christianity has more to do with following the pattern from the Old Testament. All Christian themes are based on Jewish observances, like the Passover. Jesus became the Passover Lamb, etc etc. What I would say is likely the case with the allegations that Christianity is stolen from Mithraism, is that skeptics are using Mithraism as an example of a pre-Christian faith while ignoring the fact that what remains of it to be seen today are its post-Christian form. The virgin birth etc etc were predicted in Isaiah so it did not need to be borrowed from Mithraism. What is more likely is that the cult of Mithra (in Rome) evolved into a Christianized form after Christianity began spreading throughout Rome?

Mithraism did exist before it became popular in Rome. Mithra is supposedly mentioned in the Vedas and of course in the Zoroastrian Avesta.

Most Mithraic scholars disagree with the so-called similarities and parallels between Jesus and Mithra---ie Mithra was never born of a virgin, but of a rock and as a full grown man. Alot of these so-called facts about Mithraism do not come from Mithraic scholars. Alot of these claims are made with no backing at all. None of the texts which mention Mithra ever refer to his death. Most of these supposed similarities come from much later writings and speculations or even a very very very liberal interpretations of the words in ancient texts. These things get printed, we read them, and automatically we believe it is true.

It is sort of like the fact that everyone believed the Earth was flat when until Columbus proved em all wrong. It's not a fact. We all have heard how Columbus was dissuaded from going across the Atlantic because he would fall off the edge of the Earth. This story was created a few hundred years later by a man named Washington Irving. The argument against Columbus sailing the Atlantic to get to India was not about the sphericity or flatness of the Earth, but about the distance across the circumference, which the scholars at the Universidad de Salamanca insisted he had greatly underestimated. And they were right. The flat earth story is a myth. People accepted the world was spherical for ages.

Clement, Origen, Ambrose, Augustine and other very early Christians accepted that the Earth was a globe. And I believe it was widely accepted before Christ as well. I think it was Aristotle who established this. And it would have been pretty hard to get any kind of education A.D. without coming across this.

Aside from Mithraism, there were other mystery cults which people draw parallels to, but the similarities are only striking when you really do a good job of exaggerating them.

None of the "savior gods" gave their lives for others or for the remission of sins. The death of the figures in mystery cults always take place in very fairy story-like settings while the story of Jesus takes place in Israel during Roman occupation. King Herod Antipas and Archelaus are mentioned in the New Testament, along with Pontius Pilate. Even the comparisons to resurrections are greatly skewed. Unless you count reincarnations or the conversions of their bodies to other forms as resurrection.

This whole idea or pagan influence on Christianity is nothing new, either. But I think if you do enough reading (even if you are not a Christian) you will find it quite easy to debunk the idea that Christianity was related to the pagan mystery cults. Anyways I am going to do some reading on the subject tonight.

It's always a treat reading your posts. I find them so informative. Same with M Dancer's too.

Edited August 12, 2007 by betsy