The end of moral equivalency

[ScottSA]

One argument that seems to keep cropping up when self-loathing westerners try to draw moral parallels between Christianity and Islam by trotting out "abortion clinic bombers" and "fundamentalist Christians" and so on, is on the face of it ludicrous.

The next line of retreat is often a reference to bumpiles in Abu Griab, or "traumatic" Koran peeings-on...as if these singular events even hold a candle to the daily atrocities committed in the name of allah. Nothing more need really be said about the moral difference between being piled in a heap vs having your head sawn off with a paring knife.

When this is pointed out, the final retreat is all to often to "historical wrongs"; usually ranging from the KKK to the Inquisition to Northern Ireland. And it is this final attempt at moral equivalency that is really the worst, because it's based on false information that has been bandied about for a few decades in the west that many of the stories have become truisms even though they are false.

As irrelevant as events that took place several centuries ago or were conflined to small regional areas might be to the global Jihad, lets take a look at some of these parallels. Do they really compare in scale or scope to the thousands of killings a month all over the globe today in the name of Allah? Here's a website that has taken the time to put some figures together. It has its own research, but any more or less competent amateur historian knows it already anyway:

So, you think the Ku Klux Klan and the Spanish Inquisition are bad?

So do we, but...

Put the Numbers in Perspective

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. (source)

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. (source)

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. (source)

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. (source)

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Edited August 7, 2007 by ScottSA

[cybercoma]

I don't recall anyone saying Christianity is worse. It does seem to be a common theme for people to inform you that broadbrushing all Muslims with the actions of the extremists as being bigoted, not to mention just plain ignorant. Now if you want to argue that religious faith allows extremists to go about their business unquestioned by the moderates of the faith, that's fine, but the same can be said about other religions as well. Regardless of which one is worse than the other, the idea of religious faith needs to be seriously addressed, since it is obviously the catalyst for the worst atrocities the world has known. At the very least, it has simply done nothing to stop these terrible things from happening.

[ScottSA]

I don't recall anyone saying Christianity is worse. It does seem to be a common theme for people to inform you that broadbrushing all Muslims with the actions of the extremists as being bigoted, not to mention just plain ignorant. Now if you want to argue that religious faith allows extremists to go about their business unquestioned by the moderates of the faith, that's fine, but the same can be said about other religions as well. Regardless of which one is worse than the other, the idea of religious faith needs to be seriously addressed, since it is obviously the catalyst for the worst atrocities the world has known. At the very least, it has simply done nothing to stop these terrible things from happening.

Christ, I thought you'd take the time to read those few short sentences before spouting back the same tired rhetoric. Apparently even that is too much effort for you to engage in.

[betsy]

I don't recall anyone saying Christianity is worse. It does seem to be a common theme for people to inform you that broadbrushing all Muslims with the actions of the extremists as being bigoted, not to mention just plain ignorant. Now if you want to argue that religious faith allows extremists to go about their business unquestioned by the moderates of the faith, that's fine, but the same can be said about other religions as well. Regardless of which one is worse than the other, the idea of religious faith needs to be seriously addressed, since it is obviously the catalyst for the worst atrocities the world has known. At the very least, it has simply done nothing to stop these terrible things from happening.

This is what I've noticed on topics relating to Muslims/Terrorists (and there's several of those topics over the months)

I'm not singling you out Cybercoma, but you just displayed one of the obvious...and common form of "retreat" being used by some to detract and deflect from the issue, in a feeble attempt - usually when someone is making a strong valid point - to get him/her on the defensive:

-Throwing the accusation of "broadbrushing" all Muslims, Racism. Hate for ALL Muslims.

-Finding faults to a comment (usually deliberately twisting it to suit the purpose), so as it can be used to attack the poster and his views, personally.

I often end up scratching my head wondering how a usually clear and understandable sets of opinions be so misconstrued or mis-interpreted to mean that.

Either they have not been reading the entire message, or they have been reading BUT have comprehension problems, or this is just a cheap childish ploy that really has no place in a serious, mature discussion.

I hope they do realize that it is damning to one's credibility - for the one using this kind of retreat.

When you see the same names doing this numerous times - you get to remember them and their tactics - so you end up not taking them seriously and brushing them off and (you often just scroll down fast skipping their sometimes lengthy posts)....or only bother answering their posts when there's a lack of other interesting topics and you are bored so just about anyone will do.

Edited August 7, 2007 by betsy

[kuzadd]

oh goody a thread started JUST to point fingers and call names."self-loathing westerners"

right at the get go!

Yah like that doesn't go on enough in just regular threads

good for a laugh though!

[Drea]

What they don't understand is that it is the non-theist population is what keeps religion in check. Without us non-believers we would live in an entirely different society -- perhaps as theist as the middle east.

I am not saying Christians are bombing people -- I am saying that they would use whatever force or coercian necessary IF they were NOT nipped in the bud by non-believers.

Secular, humanist societies are the only ones with equality for all. Any society run by religion is going to be biased by the teachings of that religion. Therefore there would be those who are "more equal" or "more deserving" because of the notion that one religion is "better" or "more true" than another or that believing makes one a "better" person.

I can imagine that the atheist in Iran does not have the same rights and priveledges as the believer.

They really need to thank the non-theists for keeping theism out of gov't and out of our Charter of Rights.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Drea

[ScottSA]

What they don't understand is that it is the non-theist population is what keeps religion in check. Without us non-believers we would live in an entirely different society -- perhaps as theist as the middle east.

I am not saying Christians are bombing people -- I am saying that they would use whatever force or coercian necessary IF they were NOT nipped in the bud by non-believers.

This is the most interesting angle in defence of moral equivalence yet! So Christians and Buddhists are not killing off the rest of the population, but they would if they could, and they can't because you're there to nip them in the bud. Is that a reasonable encapsulation of your thesis?

One would think, if one lived in the real world, that nipping fanatics in the bud would tend to drive them to violence instead of stop them. So really, nipping these hordes of Christians who are straining at the leash to institute a Reign of Terror, ought to be driving them to bomb the rest of us, shouldn't it? Where are these murderous would-be fanatics?

[Drea]

No Scotty we just give 'em everything they need to be "sinners" like us atheists. They willingly jump ship for pleasure. Just like Iranians would if they were not chained by their religion, if they had the influence of us non-believers

[ScottSA]

No Scotty we just give 'em everything they need to be "sinners" like us atheists. They willingly jump ship for pleasure. Just like Iranians would if they were not chained by their religion, if they had the influence of us non-believers

What happened to the 911 thugs? What happened to the 7% (2,000,000) British Muslims who think 911 was a good thing? Do 7% of British Christians think mass murder is a good thing?

[Drea]

Religion is all crap. Some of them kill people in the name of some "god", some don't.

Simply put, religion divides people.

Next week (or next year or next century) there will be a different "bad" religion to take the place of the current "bad" religion.

PS. The "attacks" on September 11, 2001 were not perpetrated by Muslims, radical or otherwise. They may have cheered it but they didn't do it.

911 was (and still is) a good excuse for perpetual "war" and the perpetual "military industrial complex" depends on it.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Drea

[ScottSA]

Religion is all crap. Some of them kill people in the name of some "god", some don't.

Simply put, religion divides people.

Next week (or next year or next century) there will be a different "bad" religion to take the place of the current "bad" religion.

PS. The "attacks" on September 11, 2001 were not perpetrated by Muslims, radical or otherwise. They may have cheered it but they didn't do it.

911 was (and still is) a good excuse for perpetual "war" and the perpetual "military industrial complex" depends on it.

So in other words, shown the bancrupcy of your moral equivalency argument, you dispense with an actual argument and merely start tossing out unsubstantiated accusations.

Who do you think did do 911? Why do you think 2,000,000 British Muslims support it?

[margrace]

I agree Drea, religion is only a tool to contain the masses. Murder in the name of religion be it Christian or any of the other has always been a common occurance. Anyone who argues differently does not read his/her history very well.

[ScottSA]

I agree Drea, religion is only a tool to contain the masses. Murder in the name of religion be it Christian or any of the other has always been a common occurance. Anyone who argues differently does not read his/her history very well.

I daresay I read history somewhat more extensively than you. You didn't even read this thread.

[Drea]

So in other words, shown the bancrupcy of your moral equivalency argument, you dispense with an actual argument and merely start tossing out unsubstantiated accusations.

Who do you think did do 911? Why do you think 2,000,000 British Muslims support it?

I didn't accuse any one with any thing.

Religion divides people. No getting around it as it is the only real "truth" available when discussing religion.

I do not care about 911. It is history and nothing will ever be done about it. The criminals will never pay for their crime as they are above the law (ie they are in government)

Now before you go all crazy let's not turn this into a "911" thread as it has been done to death already.

[ScottSA]

I do not care about 911. It is history and nothing will ever be done about it. The criminals will never pay for their crime as they are above the law (ie they are in government)

Now before you go all crazy let's not turn this into a "911" thread as it has been done to death already.

Nope. That says pretty much everything I need to hear about your intellectual credibility.

[Drea]

and Scotty goes "baaaaa". "Muslims baaaaaaaad".

[ScottSA]

and Scotty goes "baaaaa". "Muslims baaaaaaaad".

Apparently you've turned into a sheep. Have a nice day...don't get fleeced.

[Black Dog]

The trouble with the link in the o.p is that it makes no distinctions between crimes committed by Mulsims and those crimes commited because the perpatrators were Muslim.

Ah, but I'm sure some blog staffed by people named after sci-fi characters has that covered off...

[margrace]

I daresay I read history somewhat more extensively than you. You didn't even read this thread.

I wonder how you know what I read and sorry I did read the whole thread, that is a poor excuse for an attack.

[Drea]

Apparently you've turned into a sheep. Have a nice day...don't get fleeced.

Hey, you're the one in the "flock" not me

Haaaaaave a nice daaaaaaay!

[Guest American Woman]

So, you think the Ku Klux Klan and the Spanish Inquisition are bad?

So do we, but...

Put the Numbers in Perspective

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. (source)

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. (source)

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. (source)

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. (source)

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

A couple of comments: why, when talking about how bad the KKK was, is the comparison between the Klan and Islamists limited to the last 50 years when the Klan was at it's worst in the years prior? Also, why the comparision to American criminals executed when most by far don't receive the death penalty?

These comparisions most definitely do not "put the numbers in perspective." It's obvious that they are meant to deceive.

[M.Dancer]

A couple of comments: why, when talking about how bad the KKK was, is the comparison between the Klan and Islamists limited to the last 50 years when the Klan was at it's worst in the years prior?

These comparisions most definitely do not "put the numbers in perspective." It's obvious that they are meant to deceive.

How is 50 years compared to one day meant to deceive? Would it be less telling if the factoid stated 100 years compared to one week?

Also, why the comparision to American criminals executed when most by far don't receive the death penalty?

Maybe because the comparison is killed to killed, not 2- 5 years, minus time served to killed.

...or are you suggesting there are more criminals executed than who receive the death penalty? My guess would definately be the opposite.

[buffycat]

I'm not so sure that the stats which Scott is throwing around are correct.

From 1909 to 1991 a total of 6559 people were executed.

This according to this site:

http://users.bestweb.net/~rg/execution.htm

So since it's inception the US has executed over 14,000 people.

Scott I don't think your source (religionofpeace) is any better than a site which rants on about the protocols.

[ScottSA]

I can't add much to what Momo said, except that even if the factoid took the death toll from the KKK since inception, it wouldn't come close to even a year and probably not even 3 months of death toll from the global Jihad.

[Guest American Woman]

How is 50 years compared to one day meant to deceive? Would it be less telling if the factoid stated 100 years compared to one week?

The statistics are led with the comment "So, you think the Ku Klux Klan .... are bad?" and then the comparison is made using the least violent years of the Klan's existance. If you don't think that's intentionally deceiving, perhaps you'd care to take a stab at why those particular years were used.

Maybe because the comparison is killed to killed, not 2- 5 years, minus time served to killed.

...or are you suggesting there are more criminals executed than who receive the death penalty? My guess would definately be the opposite.

I misread that one, but now I'm really at a loss. Apparently it's a great thing that the United States has killed less people than Ilsamist extremists have, is that it? Makes me downright proud to be an American.