Universities will provide Muslim footbaths

[cybercoma]

Hate-ridden Anti-Pastafaric comments like this should not be accepted on this forum. As you say, we are guaranteed freedom of religion, so who are you to discriminate against the followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in this way? According to a highly reliable source, the Church of the Flying Spaghetting Monster itself, this religion has over 10 million adherrents. I feel that you should further educate yourself on Pastafarianism before deriding its beliefs.

http://www.venganza.org/

RAmen!

[cybercoma]

I should be permitted to wear full Pirate Regalia to school and dress my children in full Pirate Regalia, complete with sharpened hooks for hands and buccaneer swords! Hell, if the Sikhs can carry daggers and wear their turbans, my kids should be able to wear full Pirate Regalia. And I swear to the FSM, if they try to take away little Billy's parrot, I WILL SUE!

[Guest American Woman]

I haven't posted at MLW much yet, so I'm wondering-- Do threads end up degrading into this kind of inanity very often? Perhaps someone can tell me whether or not attempting to engage in a serious, intelligent exchange of ideas here ends up being nothing but a waste of time.

[cybercoma]

Why are my religious beliefs inane, but the Muslim and Christian ones are not? I don't need you to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster to know he's real. We're all touched by his noodly appendage everyday, that's what holds us to the planet. You just can't see him. He really loves you, whether you believe in him or not, or he'd stop holding you down to the planet with his noodle. So anyway, I don't need you to believe, but I do believe you should respect my (and thousands of other people's) beliefs.

[ScottSA]

Actually, it should read " if the Muslims found the pond to be somewhat hard to clamber into, and decided to raise the funds themselves for improvement

You forgot the fact that they were going to pay for this themselves.

What is funny is how the University does something fiscally prudent and people get their knickers in a knot , and should the Univ NOT do anything about the hazard and lose a lawsuit their knickers would be in a huge knot.

But when you have an agenda , nothing will stop the rants. Heck , obviously not even logic .

And you forgot that they didn't pay for it, and that it would never have been an issue unless they raised it. But when you have an agenda, nothing will stop the bombs. Oops I mean rants.

[guyser]

And you forgot that they didn't pay for it, and that it would never have been an issue unless they raised it. But when you have an agenda, nothing will stop the bombs. Oops I mean rants.

Nice try but again your agenda drives your posts.Bombs? We get it , all Muslims bad.

I did not "forget" anything, for should you re-read I said "they were going to" raise the money.By the way, "were" is past tense.

So, the Muslims raise the issue, and strive to raise the money , only to be told not to worry by the UofM .

To quote "So when the school recently approved installing two footbaths in a pair of new unisex bathrooms, to accommodate the needs of both male and female Muslim students, the local Islamic community started planning ways to raise the estimated $25,000 cost.

But the university told them not to bother — it would pay for the footbaths."

Kind of like your false accusations about CAIR-CAN and , to quote you, "their efforts to compromise security" when no such thing was forthcoming?

Yea...thats an agenda alright.

[ScottSA]

Nice try but again your agenda drives your posts.Bombs? We get it , all Muslims bad.

I did not "forget" anything, for should you re-read I said "they were going to" raise the money.By the way, "were" is past tense.

So, the Muslims raise the issue, and strive to raise the money , only to be told not to worry by the UofM .

To quote "So when the school recently approved installing two footbaths in a pair of new unisex bathrooms, to accommodate the needs of both male and female Muslim students, the local Islamic community started planning ways to raise the estimated $25,000 cost.

But the university told them not to bother — it would pay for the footbaths."

Kind of like your false accusations about CAIR-CAN and , to quote you, "their efforts to compromise security" when no such thing was forthcoming?

Yea...thats an agenda alright.

Yes, I understand what happened. How does that change anything I said? If they hadn't raised the issue, there would be no issue.

[guyser]

Yes, I understand what happened. How does that change anything I said? If they hadn't raised the issue, there would be no issue.

and demanded a new pool with wheelchair access so that returned wounded mujahaddin could soak their sores in heavenly bliss? Because that's a much closer parallel to the actuality.

You have in the post immdiately above this one said "demand" , when in fact at UofM there was no demand, thus you put in your own agenda, or bias as it were.

And to boot you have it backward, there was no issue at all, they wanted something, they were prepared to pay for it, the Univ said no. The issue is the OP's and the subsequent lemmings who want to make this an issue against Muslims.

[ScottSA]

You have in the post immdiately above this one said "demand" , when in fact at UofM there was no demand, thus you put in your own agenda, or bias as it were.

And to boot you have it backward, there was no issue at all, they wanted something, they were prepared to pay for it, the Univ said no. The issue is the OP's and the subsequent lemmings who want to make this an issue against Muslims.

The footbaths are going in because the Muslims asked for them. Had they not asked for them, they would not be going in. How much clearer do you need it than that?

Imagine for a second that Christians had asked for some ridiculous religious custom to be catered to by the university...do you think for a moment it would have been granted, much less paid for? Universities across the west have spent the last few decades backing away from any visible sign of "religion," meaning Christianity, and all it takes is one "request" from a bomb-happy religion and it falls all over itself to accomodate?

And exactly why do you pick a word like "lemming" to describe those who are against this? You're the Dhimmi. You're the lemming.

[bk59]

The footbaths are going in because the Muslims asked for them. Had they not asked for them, they would not be going in. How much clearer do you need it than that?

Imagine for a second that Christians had asked for some ridiculous religious custom to be catered to by the university...do you think for a moment it would have been granted, much less paid for? Universities across the west have spent the last few decades backing away from any visible sign of "religion," meaning Christianity, and all it takes is one "request" from a bomb-happy religion and it falls all over itself to accomodate?

And exactly why do you pick a word like "lemming" to describe those who are against this? You're the Dhimmi. You're the lemming.

That is pretty clear. It is also pretty clear that this is a non-issue. A footbath is not a religious thing. It can be used by anyone. Plus, in this case, it had the added benefit of accommodating something that was happening anyway in a manner that made the bathrooms safer.

Did anyone ask for a religious custom to be catered to? The answer is no. Muslims students were already going about their daily prayers. In the same way that I imagine many Christian students are going about their daily prayers at the U of M.

And I would have to disagree that "universities across the west" are "backing away from any visible sign of 'religion'". In fact, I think in many cases the opposite is true. Many universities are attempting to accommodate all religions instead of avoiding them. Take the University of Toronto as an example.

[jbg]

Just a hypothetical...

Suppose there's a pool, or water-feature, or fountain-type thing on campus. It's out of the way. It's not out in the middle of the Quad or anything, it's in a quiet location near the administration building.

A group of Muslim students find the fountain to be a handy place to wash their feet before prayer.

A group of non-Muslim students find the fountain to be an enjoyable place to wade, or dip their feet after a long day on their feet.

Are the Muslim students doing anything wrong? Are the non-Muslim students doing anything wrong? Are the Muslim students doing anything wrong that the non-Muslim students aren't?

There is a big pool in front of Edmonton's city hall that's immensely popular for wading during the summer. Should that practice be stopped? Has City Hall been Islamified? Should waders be required to sign an affidavit promising that they are not wading for any religious purpose before being allowed into the water?

-k

The obvious answer, sadly, is yes, both are. If the fountain is not designed for wading, it may well be unsafe to wade in it. Swimming pools are specially designed so that swimmers do not come into contact with sharp metal objects or broken glass. Would a university have to ensure that the fountain, designed for decorative purposes, be kept safe? Who would clean it regularly?Would the fountain be chlorinated so that noxious discharges from peoples' open sores didn't endanger others?

As for Edmonton City Hall's decorative pool, the same concerns apply. If someone wants to attribute religious significance to a munipal swimming pool, or for that matter municipal beaches on Lake Winnipeg, that's fine with me. For that matter, if I started worshipping the CN Tower (I know that would be making a graven image but my religion doesn't harm or kill apostates), that should also be fine. But if I demanded that the CN Tower douse its lights, say, for a moment at 10:00 p.m. to assist my worship, that would not be fine.

Just don't expect to be able to use any public facility for an unintended purpose.

[jbg]

As I recall, there were no affidavits required for Muslims to wash their feet in the sink, either.

But what if it came to the attention of city hall that Muslims found the existing pond to be somewhat hard to clamber into, and demanded a new pool with wheelchair access so that returned wounded mujahaddin could soak their sores in heavenly bliss? Because that's a much closer parallel to the actuality.

For them, I'd accomodate -- and add mercury to the water.

[jbg]

I haven't posted at MLW much yet, so I'm wondering-- Do threads end up degrading into this kind of inanity very often? Perhaps someone can tell me whether or not attempting to engage in a serious, intelligent exchange of ideas here ends up being nothing but a waste of time.

What you're forgetting is that the discussions often start out good. A good two or three pages at the beginning is often quite educational, even if it disintegrates afterwords.

Even though we agree on almost nothing, I encourage you to remain and contribute.

[cybercoma]

For them, I'd accomodate -- and add mercury to the water.

Because it's ok to murder... as long as it's for revenge.

[kimmy]

As for Edmonton City Hall's decorative pool, the same concerns apply. If someone wants to attribute religious significance to a munipal swimming pool, or for that matter municipal beaches on Lake Winnipeg, that's fine with me. For that matter, if I started worshipping the CN Tower (I know that would be making a graven image but my religion doesn't harm or kill apostates), that should also be fine. But if I demanded that the CN Tower douse its lights, say, for a moment at 10:00 p.m. to assist my worship, that would not be fine.

Edmonton City Hall's pool is, actually, designed for wading. Chlorinated water, handy steps providing access from all the way around, and so-on. The public is welcome to wade there.

What I'm trying to work out, here, is what specifically the objection is. I was particularly interested in the claim someone made earlier that providing a facility for a religious activity to occur turns the washroom into a "port-a-mosque" (was that the term that was used?)

Suppose that instead of "Muslim foot-baths", the University provided "public-use ground-level water receptacles of no particular religious affiliation." Muslims could wash their feet, other people could wade or play beach volleyball, homeless deadbeats could take baths, dogs could drink, and so-on. Would that be acceptable? If not, why not?

-k

[scribblet]

Part of the problem here is whether or not installing foot baths is a legitimate accommodation of students’ rights to practice their religion - or unconstitutional government support for that religion.

As the Muslim population grows, these issues grow and become more complicated. Public schools have to worry about providing Muslim prayer rooms and halal food in cafeterias, while scheduling around Muslim holidays.

All this to accommodate one religion while they ban Christmas Carols and efforts are made to purge government of religious displays, Bible readings and graduation prayers .

[Drea]

No one (government or otherwise) has banned Christmas carols.

As far as purging the government of religious displays, bible readings and graduation prayers I am all for it.

If elected gov't officials can have bible readings, why not the koran readings?

Government should be a-religious like a Chamber of Commerce (no dears that's not a bank!) is a-political.

There should be no religious symbolism/actions whatsoever in any gov't building. Ever.

Edited August 9, 2007 by Drea

[White Doors]

You think the chamber of commerce ia a-political???

HAHAHHAHA!!!!

[Drea]

They certainly are supposed to be White.

Do you even KNOW what a Chamber of Commerce is?

What is a Chamber Of Commerce

Have you ever been a member of a Chamber?

Have you ever worked for a Chamber?

Have you ever been on the board of a Chamber? Served on a committee?

I have.

Edited August 9, 2007 by Drea

[scribblet]

No one (government or otherwise) has banned Christmas carols.

Try again, I'm not just talking actual gov't bldgs, I include schools and other public institutions where carols have been banned. One of the universities providing foot baths actually banned a coffee cart vendor from playing christmas music.

A high school principal in the U.S. canceled Dicken's "A Christmas Carol," partly because he feared it would raise questions about the place of religion in public schools. Not to mention no Christmas trees etc. etc. There is a double standard here when accommodating one religion but not others.

[Drea]

All "things" religious should be kept out of schools.

Sing "Frosty the Snowman" but not "Silent Night" (sing that one at home or church)

Act out "Winter Wonderland" but not "Baby in a Manger" (belongs in home or church).

Christmas (can we rename it please!) is about giving and sharing. It is a pagan ritual during winter solstace. It is a festival celebrating longer days and the coming of spring. Has dick all to do with a prophet.

[M.Dancer]

They certainly are supposed to be White.

Do you even KNOW what a Chamber of Commerce is?

What is a Chamber Of Commerce

Have you ever been a member of a Chamber?

Have you ever worked for a Chamber?

Have you ever been on the board of a Chamber? Served on a committee?

I have.

I have. A rather large one. As political as they get which explains why the politicians clamour to speak to them and they speak to the polticians.

[M.Dancer]

They certainly are supposed to be White.

Do you even KNOW what a Chamber of Commerce is?

What is a Chamber Of Commerce

from your link.

They attempt to get enacted municipal regulations in interest of business in their regions.

[Drea]

Yes they are pro business.

they do whatever they can to get businesses to locate in their communities (even WalMarts!)

[Guest American Woman]

Part of the problem here is whether or not installing foot baths is a legitimate accommodation of students’ rights to practice their religion - or unconstitutional government support for that religion.

As the Muslim population grows, these issues grow and become more complicated. Public schools have to worry about providing Muslim prayer rooms and halal food in cafeterias, while scheduling around Muslim holidays.

All this to accommodate one religion while they ban Christmas Carols and efforts are made to purge government of religious displays, Bible readings and graduation prayers .

For years the public schools didn't serve meat on fridays because of the Catholic students. Did you complain about that the way you are halal food? I don't see public schools having to worry about providing Muslim prayer rooms; there is nothing to indicate that. Nothing like projecting problems that don't exist to provide an argument against something entirely different. U of M provides for the needs of all the students, of all religions. If they didn't meet the needs of Muslim students, THEN they would be treating Muslims differently.