Worldview of the 'Rapture-Ready' Christians

[kuzadd]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291330,00.html

Here's a link to another piece about these folks. They're not as small of a group as some may think.

I still say they are KOOKS though - and drunk on Groupthink.

*sigh* not much different that any other fundamentalist group.

saw that.

No we can't have peace, or see the world work towards it, not when war is so much for fun and profittable and besides to hell with the rest of us, the rapture ready christians want war anyway!

Literally "to hell with the rest of us" lol!

BUT, what would Jesus really do?????

[buffycat]

And the three men I admire most The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost,

They caught the last train for the coast

The day the music died.....

(in response to What would Jesus do?)

[betsy]

I only heard of this "rapture" thingy on this board.

[betsy]

This thread is not necessary. What little attempt at making an issue out of it could've easily been posted on the other thread...after all, they're by the same poster, and nothing really new about this second one.

[betsy]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291330,00.html

Here's a link to another piece about these folks. They're not as small of a group as some may think.

I still say they are KOOKS though - and drunk on Groupthink.

*sigh* not much different that any other fundamentalist group.

Groupthink - must've been inspired by "grouphug?"

[scribblet]

I only heard of this "rapture" thingy on this board.

I heard about on the other board they posted in - it's a hoot, I'm in raptures over it allready LOL

[betsy]

Yeah I watched the video - I'm always astounded at the way these sorts of folks behave - it's groupthink without limit.

Both groups are of the type who see only black and white, us or them, they miss all the true shades and colours out of their self inflicted fears and biases. I don't think any of them are truly spiritual either - the religion being used as a justification to oppress others isn't exactly a decent thing to be doing (or so I thought ).

But heck, it's a common theme in ALL major religious doctorine. (Keeping in mind that IMV religion and spirituality are not quite the same thing).

Anyways - their KOOKS!!!

Extremism does not exists ONLY in MAJOR religious doctrines - AND NOT ONLY in religious doctrines!

Some environmentalists advocate - and some even demand- becoming vegans, as an example!

Unless these vegans worship the cow...or animals as their deity or god....I'd say it is not a religious doctrine!

Some so-called non-religious or atheist or agnostics go to the extremes of lumping all cults and off-shoots loosely-based on a certain major religious doctrine - in this example, Christianity - wilfully ignoring (either out of utter ignorance, or stupidity, or devoid of any sophisticated capability to look beyond and comprehend, or malicious trash mentality that only seeks to malign at all costs, etc.) the fact that whether these so-called rapture groups are a small fringe...or becoming mainstream (as in trends)....the fact still remains that some of their beliefs, if not all are not normally in most legitimate (for lack of better word) Christian groups.

So, yes, as in all things - not only in religion - there are extremists, and "KOOKS".

It is an interesting thread though...for it informed me that such things like this rapture-thingy exists.

Edited July 31, 2007 by betsy

[kimmy]

Personally, I can't wait for the rapture.

I think I know what you're getting at, and I can't say I disagree.

I only heard of this "rapture" thingy on this board.

I heard about on the other board they posted in - it's a hoot, I'm in raptures over it allready LOL

Surely you guys are kidding. While I realize that mainstream Christians (ie, the sane ones) don't concern themselves with this kind of wackjobbery, the fact that some fringie types believe in this sort of end times prophesied stuff is hardly a guarded secret.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind_(series)

-k

[betsy]

Surely you guys are kidding. While I realize that mainstream Christians (ie, the sane ones) don't concern themselves with this kind of wackjobbery, the fact that some fringie types believe in this sort of end times prophesied stuff is hardly a guarded secret.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind_(series)

-k

I'm not kidding. Well, actually I may seem like a "fanatical zealot" - at least as some atheists or agnostics see or want to think of me - in my debates here on religion, but in reality I can't even remember when was it the last time I entered a church.

No, it's no guarded secret. Wasn't that Jones guy who gave cyanide to his flocks sort of Christian-based? I'm not sure. And yes, going by the cashier in grocery stores I see headlines on those really fringey type of tabloid announcing the propehsy...or the doomsday or whatever. Hey, if these kind of reading materials sell (and obviously they do), there must be a sizeable market for them.

But as to details of fringe-beliefs such as this rapture - never heard.

Edited July 31, 2007 by betsy

[jefferiah]

I have heard of the rapture. That's quite a common belief among many Christians, concerning certain interpretations of prophecy. However, I have never heard of people who think they know when such a thing is coming or in trying to bring it about, until I began reading of it in the last couple years. So among those who believe in the rapture I would say you have two camps. People who believe in it, coming at some unknown time (I.E. the words in the Bible which say "I will come as a thief in the night" and "Nobody knows the day or the hour.") and then you seem to have this cult-like camp that thinks they know when it is coming and how they can help bring it about and they are prepared to go or something. The word rapture is not in the Bible but certain passages in Revelations I believe refer to people who are kept seperate from suffering the end times, which they call Tribulation Period. So movies like Left Behind would be based on this idea of people who are left to face the Tribulation period. But from what I understand of Left Behind (have not seen it) it seems to be a very radical view. My understanding of what is written is that during this time anyone who wishes to be Christian will be persecuted, and they will be executed for their faith. They would be martyrs----not violent revolutionaries who are supposed to fight some sort of a guerilla battle against non-believers, but simply people who refuse to deny Christian faith and remain faithful. And like the apostles they will meet their end for "witnessing", proclaiming the faith, which will be banned.

But it is not good to speculate too much. What I have written here is my general understanding of the mainstream view of the prophecy. The book of Revelation gives a warning at the end about adding anything to the words in the prophecy. And since most of it is written metaphorically, it is not easy to understand and any vivid interpretation could be considered "adding to the words".

Edited July 31, 2007 by jefferiah

[buffycat]

Sheesh Betsy - Do you actually ever read what someone writes - or just assume and wing it?

Extremism does not exists ONLY in MAJOR religious doctrines - AND NOT ONLY in religious doctrines!

I never said it didn't exist in other areas - extremism that is. What I said is that ALL major religions doctorines can be used to justify extremist beliefs and actions.

Some environmentalists advocate - and some even demand- becoming vegans, as an example!

Unless these vegans worship the cow...or animals as their deity or god....I'd say it is not a religious doctrine!

Some so-called non-religious or atheist or agnostics go to the extremes of lumping all cults and off-shoots loosely-based on a certain major religious doctrine - in this example, Christianity - wilfully ignoring (either out of utter ignorance, or stupidity, or devoid of any sophisticated capability to look beyond and comprehend, or malicious trash mentality that only seeks to malign at all costs, etc.) the fact that whether these so-called rapture groups are a small fringe...or becoming mainstream (as in trends)....the fact still remains that some of their beliefs, if not all are not normally in most legitimate (for lack of better word) Christian groups.

So, yes, as in all things - not only in religion - there are extremists, and "KOOKS".

It is an interesting thread though...for it informed me that such things like this rapture-thingy exists.

Yeah, true enough - but this thread is about Christian extremism. How it is moving more into the mainstream (50,000,000) apparantly according to Fox, and the amount of political sway these KOOKS have.

So your point is ... what?

[betsy]

Sheesh Betsy - Do you actually ever read what someone writes - or just assume and wing it?

What makes you say that?

You know the old adage...."if your mind is muddled and you're not sure of what you're saying, better zip it...or it might boomerang right back at you."

Like this next one....

Extremism does not exists ONLY in MAJOR religious doctrines - AND NOT ONLY in religious doctrines!

I never said it didn't exist in other areas - extremism that is. What I said is that ALL major religions doctorines can be used to justify extremist beliefs and actions.

Sheesh Buffy - do you actually ever read - AND UNDERSTAND - what someone writes - or just assume and wing it?

I never said you said it doesn't exist in other areas - extremism that is.

I'm just giving my point of view on this issue.

I have expanded on my views a bit hence I even gave the example of the enivironmetalists who wants us all to become vegans to save the earth!

Yeah, true enough - but this thread is about Christian extremism. How it is moving more into the mainstream (50,000,000) apparantly according to Fox, and the amount of political sway these KOOKS have.

So it is about Christian extremism! But about EXTREMISM, nonetheless!

So they are moving more into the mainstream...why is that so surprising in this day and age?

Who would've thought Wiccan practice or practices loosely-based on Wiccan would become mainstream now? Such as candle-burning, as an example. NOT THAT I'M SAYING they are extremists....I'm just saying how easily something that starts out small can become a "trend"....or very much "in".

But yes, I'd bet your bottom bippy there are some whom you would call "kooks"...

And yes, some small groups can have the political clout! Look at MADD (that's the only thing that comes to mind right now), as an example!

So your point is ... what?

Decipher it yourself! It's hidden there somewhere. And don't nag me if you can't find it!:

Sheeesh....

Edited July 31, 2007 by betsy

[jefferiah]

Yeah, true enough - but this thread is about Christian extremism. How it is moving more into the mainstream (50,000,000) apparantly according to Fox, and the amount of political sway these KOOKS have.

Yeah, I think among other Christian groups there is some concern over that. But the difference between some of these movements is their media influence. Classical Christian views--Protestant and Catholic--don't get the same attention "Power Religion" does. I don't know if that is the appropriate term, but I am reading a book called "Power Religion" right now. It is a book about the "fast-food, get rich quick" style of religion. Sort of like Dianetics and Scientology, I guess. Tele-marketed religion promising wealth, power, prestige, the secret to happiness---for $29.95. It is a brand of religion focused not only on promising superficial power (which is not the point of Christianity---Christianity promises suffering in this world), but it justifies itself by using non-Christian marketing and modern psychological methods to attract followers. I don't agree with this. It twists the faith to make it something which appeals to people who want a quick fix, rearranges the original religion to make it attractive to reckless human urges and then says "Look at least we can bring in followers." But those of more classical views (myself included) would disagree with this and say that it is bringing in masses of people to follow the wrong ideas.

Where the New Testament says that the Christian battle is a spiritual one to be fought with unworldy weapons---truth, faith, etc. This other "movement" creates a Left Behind video game complete with warfare and violence, because this is what sells. People do not want a God who lets himself be crucified, they are still saying "Prove that you can do it, come down from the cross and fight back." And Left Behind does the wrong thing and tries to indulge that human desire, for a Hercules rather than Jesus, who healed one of the men who arrested him.

Edited July 31, 2007 by jefferiah

[kuzadd]

odd because I recall scriblett acknowledging she had read the "left behind" fanatics book.

Betsy, pretty sure, you did also???

And there it is, the rapture , there, in those books, so for either of you to be claiming, no knowledge is a little odd to say the least, that said, Pick up a paper, a book, any news site and there they are! INC. FOX news!!. You can look at that on line, and surely both of you do.

The rapture ready christans!

So it really stretches credulity, to read either of you make the claims you do.

Oh and in the video, the 'rapture ready' christians, do all there own talking, perhaps, they shouldn't if it is so embarrassing, it needs to be denied?

Edited July 31, 2007 by kuzadd

[jefferiah]

Well, reading them is one thing. Like the Da Vinci Code or Stigmata, if you understand that it is fiction. I have no interest in them as they seem pretty corny to me. And like some sort of fast-food mass produced sci-fantasy attempt at making Christianity into some pop culture thing. Christians and non-Christians alike are right to be critical of it.

As for these groups I watch very little TV, except for old Seinfeld and Frasier episodes. I usually hear about this stuff on here.

I don't claim ignorance on the fact that there is belief in the rapture among many Christians, but what you seem to be outlining is a brand of Rapturists (lets say) that I have not even heard of until a few years ago. And usually this information comes from an atheist.

No FOX news here, sorry.

Read Revelations and you will see that many of these radical Rapturists are interpreting very specific outcomes from a very very vague prophecy.

Edited July 31, 2007 by jefferiah

[betsy]

odd because I recall scriblett acknowledging she had read the "left behind" fanatics book.

Betsy, pretty sure, you did also???

And there it is, the rapture , there, in those books, so for either of you to be claiming, no knowledge is a little odd to say the least,

I cannot speak for Scribblett.

But I, however can honestly say I have not read the book you're spouting about! I challenge you to prove where I said that I did read that book.

I know telling lies and twisting of facts seem to come so easy with you.....but don't you be telling or maliciously insinuating lies about me on this board and expect it to go unchallenged!

I hope I make myself clear.

that said, Pick up a paper, a book, any news site and there they are! INC. FOX news!!. You can look at that on line, and surely both of you do.

The rapture ready christans!

So it really stretches credulity, to read either of you make the claims you do.

Oh and in the video, the 'rapture ready' christians, do all there own talking, perhaps, they shouldn't if it is so embarrassing, it needs to be denied?

Well too bad to disappoint you...but like I said, I never heard of this Christian "rapture".

It may be your habit to check out all the news sites...but that is you! I am not you (Thank God).

See your flawed logic? Just because you go to all these news sites and read all these books, therefore you conclude that everybody must be doing the same thing! FYI, a lot of extremists....and kooks think that way!

Some would say that is being "narrow-minded." While others wouldn't be as kind.

Sheeesh!

Edited August 1, 2007 by betsy

[kimmy]

I have heard of the rapture. That's quite a common belief among many Christians, concerning certain interpretations of prophecy. However, I have never heard of people who think they know when such a thing is coming or in trying to bring it about, until I began reading of it in the last couple years.

My first exposure to the concept of "the rapture" was from a Daily Show segment which lampooned a company selling Rapture Insurance.

The highlight of the piece came when Samantha Bee was "raptured" right out of the Daily Show lunch-room.

So among those who believe in the rapture I would say you have two camps. People who believe in it, coming at some unknown time (I.E. the words in the Bible which say "I will come as a thief in the night" and "Nobody knows the day or the hour.") and then you seem to have this cult-like camp that thinks they know when it is coming and how they can help bring it about and they are prepared to go or something.

The video Kuzadd linked to contains numerous conversations with people who fall firmly into the latter category. What's not clear is whether the group's leadership is of like view... if they are they won't admit it, at any rate. It gives one pause, though... when members of the group are convinced that an apocalyptic confrontation with Iran is the even that triggers the Second Coming, isn't it fair to ask whether the leadership's enthusiastic support for a unilateral strike against Iran is motivated by their interest in Israel's well being or by their belief that they can kickstart the Second Coming?

What I found a little unsettling was to see prominent political figures like Joseph Liebermann and Tom DeLay hanging out with these folks.

My hope is that if the decision is made to strike against Iran, it will be a decision based on solid intelligence and certain knowledge that doing so is the last means of preventing Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. Not an effort to hasten the Second Coming.

-k

[sharkman]

The religious who believe in a rapture are far less kooky than those religious who believe God wants them to kill Jews, infidels and fly planes into buildings to receive God's reward of 72 virgins. Blowing up one's body seems to be the theme, and taking out as many as possible.

[kimmy]

The religious who believe in a rapture are far less kooky than those religious who believe God wants them to kill Jews, infidels and fly planes into buildings to receive God's reward of 72 virgins. Blowing up one's body seems to be the theme, and taking out as many as possible.

Yes, yes. I think we're all aware of Muslim nutjobs.

However, apparently not everybody was aware of this bughouse loco element among Christians. Which is what we're having this nice thread to look into.

It always grates on my nerves when one of the usual suspects interrupts a thread about Muslim extremism with some completely unrelated example of a Christian kook.

I now find it equally grating to see someone attempting to derail a thread about Christian extremists with some completely unrelated chatter about Muslim kooks.

-k

[Bonam]

The production of ridiculous concepts, extremist beliefs, and general craziness is a feature of most religions. When you start with false premises (or at the very least premises that are completely unverifiable and unrelated to the universe which we inhabit), you're bound to come to nonsense as a conclusion. Or, more simply: Garbage in, garbage out.

[sharkman]

The religious who believe in a rapture are far less kooky than those religious who believe God wants them to kill Jews, infidels and fly planes into buildings to receive God's reward of 72 virgins. Blowing up one's body seems to be the theme, and taking out as many as possible.

Yes, yes. I think we're all aware of Muslim nutjobs.

However, apparently not everybody was aware of this bughouse loco element among Christians. Which is what we're having this nice thread to look into.

It always grates on my nerves when one of the usual suspects interrupts a thread about Muslim extremism with some completely unrelated example of a Christian kook.

I now find it equally grating to see someone attempting to derail a thread about Christian extremists with some completely unrelated chatter about Muslim kooks.

-k

Well hopefully the grating won't be too arduous. I don't remember you objecting on any of those threads when said suspects interrupts a Muslim thread to slag Christian beliefs of one kind or another. I believe you hold Christianity in low regard, do you not? At least those 'nutjob' Christians who gathered up some of you kids in the hood for a bible study or something.

At least you hold all religions in disdain, which is different from some of those around here who can't find a Muslim terrorist who isn't misunderstood. And can't find a Christian belief that doesn't somehow threaten the world. But what's new.

[kimmy]

Well hopefully the grating won't be too arduous. I don't remember you objecting on any of those threads when said suspects interrupts a Muslim thread to slag Christian beliefs of one kind or another.

I suspect I probably have. You're not accusing me of sympathizing with those who wish to derail discussions about militant Islam, are you? Because that would be hilariously mistaken. I have as long and consistent a track record of being grossed out by Islam as anybody here. That I'm not enamoured of Christian hardliners either is, as far as I'm concerned, a mark of the consistency of my views.

Anyway, if I recall, you are indeed one of those who bristles when someone tries to sidetrack discussions about Muslim extremists with some anecdote about a Christian abortion-clinic sniper or so-on. So your effort to bring suicide bombers into this thread is ...ironic, to say the least.

I believe you hold Christianity in low regard, do you not? At least those 'nutjob' Christians who gathered up some of you kids in the hood for a bible study or something.

Yes, that was me. You have a good memory. But no, I don't hold Christians in low regard. I have high regard for most of them, as most Christians in this country are indeed capable of functioning in our modern and diverse society and have no difficulty coexisting happily alongside those who don't share their views. (I will also point out that most Muslims I have known likewise had no difficulty at all in coexisting with people of other beliefs.)

At least you hold all religions in disdain, which is different from some of those around here who can't find a Muslim terrorist who isn't misunderstood. And can't find a Christian belief that doesn't somehow threaten the world. But what's new.

Yeah, whatever. This thread isn't about how quaint it is that some people believe they're literally eating their savior. This thread is about a group that apparently believes they have a religious duty to press for a confrontation with Iran because it's foretold in Revelations. And it's apparently a group that has highly-placed friends in American politics. To me that strikes me as being of interest to the general public.

-k

[betsy]

Religion is the best area to do some serious money-making scheme. And they are nowhere confined to Christian religion alone - although the Christian religion is the best target for it due to its doctrine about unselfishness and giving. So these cults come up like mushrooms.

Jefferiah -if I'm not mistaken - had mentioned about a new "power" religion that offer quick riches.

True or classic Christians could quickly see through to that right off the bat!

Since when was how-to acquire riches - unless they're speaking of spiritual "riches" - ever one of the teachings of Christ?

On the contrary! As a matter of fact, forsaking material riches is one of the most important messages of Christ. Hence there are orders of nuns or priests who forsake their worldly possessions, living as spartanly as possible, and vowing to poverty.

But of course, there are those wolves in sheeps' clothings. Telling lies and twisting the words of Christ for whatever purpose it may suit them. Misleading people. Leading and guiding them away, instead of closer to God.

That's why Christ had warned us to beware of those who speak in His name.

Some non-believers do not understand that for how could they if they do not know much about the teachings of the Man that Christians are trying to follow. If they had not read the New Testament?

I, myself have to confess that I have never really read the Bible in all its entirety. I would like to be able to do the same as my Dad, reading a segment each day...from the beginning to the end. Then start all over again.

And yet there are those who profess to be so well-read...following up and reading all sorts of books about these cults....and yet showing so much ignorance of the original source from which these cults are said to be based.

It is hard to believe that with all these obvious interest and fixation on Christian beliefs, one would think that they would sensibly understand first what the main source is all about!

If they do not wish to, then, fine!

But to go on a rant and an all-out disdainful criticism, lumping everyone?

Why....that is like someone jumping in on a fray blindly swinging away...without even realizing who they're fighting with or what they're brawling about! This is not rational thinking. This is extremism as its best....by some anti-Christians fueled by just one purpose.

That's how I see some of these people. I'm reminded by an old, old cartoon about someone shadow-boxing by a wall, showing all bravado and fierceness...until suddenly, his own shadow reached out and gave him a big solid one. Knocked-out by his own shadow. It is comedic, actually.

Edited August 1, 2007 by betsy

[kuzadd]

odd because I recall scriblett acknowledging she had read the "left behind" fanatics book.

Betsy, pretty sure, you did also???

And there it is, the rapture , there, in those books, so for either of you to be claiming, no knowledge is a little odd to say the least,

I cannot speak for Scribblett.

But I, however can honestly say I have not read the book you're spouting about! I challenge you to prove where I said that I did read that book.

I know telling lies and twisting of facts seem to come so easy with you.....but don't you be telling or maliciously insinuating lies about me on this board and expect it to go unchallenged!

I hope I make myself clear.

oh you make yourself loud and clear, though I can never quite figure out what, you go on and on about.

see you quoted me above

Betsy, pretty sure, you did also???

see those question marks?

That means I am questioning, so I am not assuming, not stating you had, but questioning on recall.

Learn to read, okay?

did I make myself clear?

[kuzadd]

What I find interesting about this group of "christians" besides these crazy beliefs and there reward aspirations, EXACTLY like extremist Muslims.

The mass marketing!

This is not a quirk of Islam, to my knowledge.

The sheer amount of garbage marketed and BOUGHT by these people is unbelievable.!

Why if you believe the "end times" are nigh, would all this junk be marketed and why would anyone buy it?!

http://www.cafepress.com/raptureready

there are books, dvd's ,videogames, clothing, and on and on, why?

why would you buy this junk?

Is is because marketers realize, if you will "buy" the whole concept of this "rapture" nonsense.

You will buy anything?

This market is quite large obviously given the sheer amount of products available, even giving forth a new term

" christian industrial complex" which has become the latest catch phrase.

But mostly the political power these nutjobs have is staggering.