Jewish group wants Outremont Liberal pulled from byelection

Michael Bluth · July 26, 2007

To me, he's a standard issue Quebec Boomer Quiet Revolution pretentious intellectual.
Then again, maybe I'm wrong.

Are we talking about Coulon or Dion? I don't think you are wrong about either.

By the end of October Coulon will have slunk back to his little life in academia writing articles read by a few dozen people. No influence. No power. Probably for the best for Canada as a whole.

August1991 · July 26, 2007

And once again, you read all that from the La Presse article?

From two in fact, and one he wrote himself.

First, Coulon said that he no longer supported Hamas because he had decided that they were a terrorist organization. (Surprise.)

Second, Coulon said that he wants Canadian values to be adopted elsewhere not by force but voluntarily.

---

First, I can understand the switch in his support of Hamas. Hamas is no longer Fidel Castro-stylish. And Coulon is aiming for the Canadian federal stage. He must tone down the rhetoric.

Second, the idea of voluntary adoption of "Canadian values" is presumptious, smug and arrogant - when you think about it in a Leftish way. It's also foolish.

We are not in Afghanistan to help Afghani girls to grow up to become Lise Payette, Louise Beaudoin or Louise Harel (God forbid!) We are in Afghanistan to ensure - by force - that no terrorists can organize there and then attack us.

IMV, Jocelyn Coulon, the supposed world politics expert, doesn't understand the basic, first principles of current world politics. (BTW, Rene Levesque could explain intelligibly world politics in Quebec.)

Coulon will get elected in Outremont. If Dion becomes PM, Coulon will be a minister of something.

He's no Maxime Bernier. If Coulon becomes minister, some civil servant like Argus will hate the guy's officious arrogance. In fact, the problem is that Coulon is a Quiet Revolution Boomer intellectual. He says that he grew up in the west of Montreal be he lives in Rosemont. Ugh.

Edited July 26, 2007 by August1991

jdobbin · July 26, 2007

From two in fact, and one he wrote himself.
First, Coulon said that he no longer supported Hamas because he had decided that they were a terrorist organization. (Surprise.)

Second, Coulon said that he wants Canadian values to be adopted elsewhere not by force but voluntarily.

---

First, I can understand the switch in his support of Hamas. Hamas is no longer Fidel Castro-stylish. And Coulon is aiming for the Canadian federal stage. He must tone down the rhetoric.

Second, the idea of voluntary adoption of "Canadian values" is presumptious, smug and arrogant - when you think about it in a Leftish way. It's also foolish.

We are not in Afghanistan to help Afghani girls to grow up to become Lise Payette, Louise Beaudoin or Louise Harel (God forbid!) We are in Afghanistan to ensure - by force - that no terrorists can organize there and then attack us.

IMV, Jocelyn Coulon, the supposed world politics expert, doesn't understand the basic, first principles of current world politics. (BTW, Rene Levesque could explain intelligibly world politics in Quebec.)

Coulon will get elected in Outremont. If Dion becomes PM, Coulon will be a minister of something.

He's no Maxime Bernier. If Coulon becomes minister, some civil servant like Argus will hate the guy's officious arrogance. In fact, the problem is that Coulon is a Quiet Revolution Boomer intellectual. He says that he grew up in the west of Montreal be he lives in Rosemont. Ugh.

Coulon had alway asserted that Hamas was a terrorist organization. From what I read of his column, he was trying to explain that they were also a movement for Palestinians to root out the corruption of Fatah.

He then went on to say that Israel eventually had to discuss things with Fatah despite their misgivings. Some critics were upset with the suggestion that Israel and the west may have to take to Hamas at some point.

Until, Hamas is willing to talk and not continue the war of terror, Coulon is quite correct that they have to be isolated.

Harper was advocating Canadian values in South America. Was that arrogant and presumptuous or was he making a valid point that Canada is different that the U.S. in its approach to other countries? I assume you think Harper is leftish on this.

The terrorists are receiving safe haven in Pakistan and building up in Iraq despite the U.S. presence. The sooner you realize that Afghans have to take care of the Afghan problem, the better. Canada cannot be stationed there permanently and right now, the Afghans are two years behind on their commitments. We also can't carry the bulk of the mission's hammer in the south without back-up.

The right wing seem to think we have to be there 10 years or more. Even the Afghans are saying that our presence is increasing that long will be a destabilizing force.

Edited July 26, 2007 by jdobbin

Michael Bluth · July 26, 2007

Second, the idea of voluntary adoption of "Canadian values" is presumptious, smug and arrogant - when you think about it in a Leftish way. It's also foolish.

What does he define as "Canadian values"?

Something tells me it's the viewpoint of Canadian values as proposed by Pierre Trudeau.

So I guess Coulon would say Quebec intellectual values ... if he were being honest.

August1991 · July 26, 2007

What does he define as "Canadian values"?
Something tells me it's the viewpoint of Canadian values as proposed by Pierre Trudeau.

So I guess Coulon would say Quebec intellectual values ... if he were being honest.

Not far wrong.

He starts his La Presse article with:

L'action est la mesure de l'homme de réflexion.

Other than being pretentious, that's a direct copy of Trudeau. (I think Trudeau copied someone from the 18e century.)

The Quiet Revolution Quebec Intellectual Boomers tend to live in Trudeau's or Bourgault's shadow.

Edited July 26, 2007 by August1991

M.Dancer · July 26, 2007

And second to ask if this fellow isn't really a naive simplistic dolt to ever believe that they would change?

Think that applies to Israel and Canada for restoring relations and money to Fatah?

We don't fund Fatah. We fund the Palestinian Authority. I hope the Liberals aren't paying you for this, because you are not giving valiue for money.

jdobbin · July 26, 2007

We don't fund Fatah. We fund the Palestinian Authority. I hope the Liberals aren't paying you for this, because you are not giving valiue for money.

Who do you think runs the Authority? It is all Abbas and the Fatah party.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...70724.wmackay24

Shimon Fogel, chief executive of the Canada-Israel Committee, said Monday that he did not believe the reinstatement of the funds would in any way “undercut the appreciation the pro-Israel community has for the Harper government.”
He admitted that his group was less than enthusiastic about restoration of the funds, due to continuing concerns over president Abbas's track record. “He's better than Hamas, although it's not as if he wasn't deficient and inadequate in his own way,” Mr. Fogel said.

“The guy doesn't merit carte blanche. He still has to earn the confidence of Canadians.”

I hope you're not saying that the Authority is not controlled by Fatah because if you are, you are flat wrong.

One of the things that Jewish lobby groups were happy about is that both Fatah and Hamas were hamstrung by the funds being withdrawn. Now, there is realization that Fatah is needed to counter Hamas.

Edited July 26, 2007 by jdobbin

M.Dancer · July 26, 2007

No I'm saying your semantics are not cost effective. They are not funding a political party, they are not funding a terrorist group. They are funding a government. When you pay taxes I guess you make out the cheque to Stephen Harper......

You realize that the Palestinian Authority has to have an independent audit...?

jdobbin · July 26, 2007

No I'm saying your semantics are not cost effective. They are not funding a political party, they are not funding a terrorist group. They are funding a government. When you pay taxes I guess you make out the cheque to Stephen Harper......
You realize that the Palestinian Authority has to have an independent audit...?

Fatah is linked to the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a terrorist group. They've killed three Israeli soldiers this years and are responsible for dozens of suicide bombs.

I don't see it as semantics. I see a direct link. Abbas--->Fatah--->al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades--->terrorism.

I don't think you need a audit to prove it.

The only difference is Abbas is talking to Israel whereas Hamas refuses to even acknowledge it. And if Fatah falls, everyone worries that Hamas will be worse.

But let's not plays games and say the Palestinian Authority has no links to terrorism or that Fatah is not in control of it or receiving money from it.

M.Dancer · July 26, 2007

So your position is we should not fund the Palestinian authority?

jdobbin · July 26, 2007

So your position is we should not fund the Palestinian authority?

I'm saying the only difference is that Abbas is talking whereas Hamas is not. Fatah and Hamas are terrorist organizations. The semantics has recently been to say Fatah isn't despite the fact that it has militant operations that target civilians and Israeli soldiers.

As Churchill said, it is better to jaw, jaw than war, war. So it is jaw, jaw with Fatah and war, war with Hamas.

For this reason, Coulon has said you can't have a conversation with someone who won't talk. There can be no one sided conversation with Hamas as long as they want to fight.

I don't envy Tony Blair. It is a minefield is the region.

Edited July 26, 2007 by jdobbin

Higgly · July 26, 2007

So the major issue for these people in a Canadian election is how it will effect Israel. Why don't they move to Israel? Personally, I feel the time is long overdue for B'nai Bith to register as an agent of a foreign government, as required by law in Canada. If these people can't think in terms of what is best for Canada, then it's time for them to go and vote somewhere else.

Higgly · July 26, 2007

I'm saying the only difference is that Abbas is talking whereas Hamas is not.

Are you saying Israel would talk to Hamas? What gave you that idea?

jdobbin · July 26, 2007

Are you saying Israel would talk to Hamas? What gave you that idea?

No, this all goes back to what Coulon was saying about Hamas being a terrorist group but also a political movement. He had said that isolation was the policy that Israel had with Fatah but at some points both sides had to/decided to talk. He said that it would eventually have to happen with Hamas as well but not now.

Hamas has no interest in talking so Coulon says you can't treat them as anything other than a terrorist organization.

Gaza and the West Bank is a battleground between Fatah and Hamas. Israel has decided, despite misgivings, that Fatah is better than Hamas.

Higgly · July 26, 2007

Israel has decided, despite misgivings, that Fatah is better than Hamas.

Israel would have misgivings if St Peter was representing the Palestinians. It doesn't like the prospect that its days of reaching into the honey pot for free land might be over. Israel was founded by terrorists. It has no moral high ground.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Higgly

Higgly · July 31, 2007

Further to my previous post.

This is not the first time that political candidates have been harrassed by Canadian Jews over Israel. In Toronto, School trustee Candidate Josh Matlow in the riding of St Pauls was forced to print a public statement of his support for Israel. Matlow had never made any comments about the middle east, which is far removed from the mandate a school trustee is responsible for, but during the election, the Canadian Union of Public Employees - CUPE - had announced that it supported Matlow. CUPE's support for Matlow was related exclusively to school board issues. However, CUPE had expressed a sympathy for the Palestinian cause months before.

Two weeks before the school trustee election, an intense email campaign attacking Matlow was started by Jews living in St Pauls. Matlow felt compelled to write a piece in the Town Crier neighbourhood newspaper saying that he supported Israel.

Keep in mind that this is a Canadian candidate for a very minor political position being forced to declare his allegiance to a foreign country to avoid vicious clandestine attacks.

There is a post in this thread saying tha B'nai Brith has overplayed its hand. It is time to recognize that Canadian Jews who participate in this kind of nonsense do not have Canada's best interests at heart and that they should be specifically targeted for response intended to islolate and counter them as a political force. It is important to recognize that many of the problems that Israel has are of its own making, most particularly as a result of a political philosophy which is based on the use of military power to repress and persecute Arabs living in the Palestinian territories in order to either drive them off of their legally owned land or force them to submit to a foreign occupying power.

Previous posts provided links to Globe and Mail articles. When I clicked on those links I was not allowed to see the material unless I paid for the article. Please quote material references in the future and give credit. The Globe and Mail does not pay for interviews and nobody should have to pay to see quoted references as per academic tradition.

jdobbin · July 31, 2007

Previous posts provided links to Globe and Mail articles. When I clicked on those links I was not allowed to see the material unless I paid for the article. Please quote material references in the future and give credit. The Globe and Mail does not pay for interviews and nobody should have to pay to see quoted references as per academic tradition.

Sorry about that. I can assure you that when I linked initially, the entire article was available. I never post a link unless someone is able to check out the article. I don't know when they made this one subscription only.

M.Dancer · July 31, 2007

Two weeks before the school trustee election, an intense email campaign attacking Matlow was started by Jews living in St Pauls. Matlow felt compelled to write a piece in the Town Crier neighbourhood newspaper saying that he supported Israel.

He couldn't have worried too much about it or he would have written it in a newspaper that people read instead of budgies.

Oh those rascally Jews...getting involved with politics......funny though, if CUPE is so darned concerned about Plaestine maybe they should ...ummm...relocate their instead of meddling in my ward.

Higgly · July 31, 2007

Two weeks before the school trustee election, an intense email campaign attacking Matlow was started by Jews living in St Pauls. Matlow felt compelled to write a piece in the Town Crier neighbourhood newspaper saying that he supported Israel.

He couldn't have worried too much about it or he would have written it in a newspaper that people read instead of budgies.

Yeah right. You mean the paper that is run by Edward Greenspan, or the paper that is run by Leonard Asper?

Bonam · July 31, 2007

It is time to recognize that Canadian Jews who participate in this kind of nonsense do not have Canada's best interests at heart and that they should be specifically targeted for response intended to islolate and counter them as a political force.

Just what we needed, another resident anti-semite.

Higgly · July 31, 2007

Oh those rascally Jews...getting involved with politics......funny though, if CUPE is so darned concerned about Plaestine maybe they should ...ummm...relocate their instead of meddling in my ward.

You missed the point. It was not the candidate that expressed support for Palestinians, but merely someone who said they supported him for reasons specific to his mandate. This was a witch hunt. It has to stop. We do not run this country for the benfit of Israel. People who want to conduct their affairs for the benfit of Israel have a simple solution. Move to Israel.

M.Dancer · July 31, 2007

Two weeks before the school trustee election, an intense email campaign attacking Matlow was started by Jews living in St Pauls. Matlow felt compelled to write a piece in the Town Crier neighbourhood newspaper saying that he supported Israel.

He couldn't have worried too much about it or he would have written it in a newspaper that people read instead of budgies.

Yeah right. You mean the paper that is run by Edward Greenspan, or the paper that is run by Leonard Asper?

Actually, I just think the story is bullshit, i'm sorry if I confused you. Perhaps maybe, considering your language and the fact that Josh sits on a CJC commitee leads me to think that some make this to be the cause celebre that it ain't.

But at least it gives you an opportunity to blame Jews instead of beating around the bush and blaming Zionists or Israel.

Bonam · July 31, 2007

This was a witch hunt. It has to stop.

Witch hunt eh? How about your witch hunt to "isolate and counter" Canadian Jews that support Israel?

Edited July 31, 2007 by Bonam

M.Dancer · July 31, 2007

Oh those rascally Jews...getting involved with politics......funny though, if CUPE is so darned concerned about Plaestine maybe they should ...ummm...relocate their instead of meddling in my ward.

You missed the point. It was not the candidate that expressed support for Palestinians, but merely someone who said they supported him for reasons specific to his mandate. This was a witch hunt. It has to stop. We do not run this country for the benfit of Israel. People who want to conduct their affairs for the benfit of Israel have a simple solution. Move to Israel.

I didn't miss the point. That's why I suggest CUPE move to palestine. Or Venuzuela. WHich ever has the best all inclusive.