Jewish group wants Outremont Liberal pulled from byelection

[Rue]

Good job misinterpreting what I first wrote, arguing against something that was never stated, and when your failure to read is pointed out, trying to claim victory.

Feeling outnumbered by the evil Zionists? Lol. Soon as you can't spam your anti-semitic garbage unopposed you run away.

Bonam I appreciate your integrity on this forum. Thanks.

[Higgly]

That article pretty much nailed it.

It bothers me as a Jew when I see Jewish organizations or individuals throwing around the terms "anti-semitic" or "anti-Israeli" llike they're nothing. Those terms shouldn't be used for political gain - they should be used when the situation warrants it, otherwise they become watered-down and people in general stop caring when they hear them.

It bothers you. It pisses people like me off something fierce, and as Rue will attest, I am no Jew.

Relations between the Arab world and the west are one of the foremost challenges facing the world today, and a large majority of people in the Arab world will tell you that the issue foremost on their mind is the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. This problem is not going to just go away because we are all made to believe that Israel is always right and that every Arab is a wild-eyed terrorist. Israel is not some innocent lamb waiting for slaughter. It is a country that has for too long been run by the likes of Netenyahu and Sharon who have done everything possible to stick their finger in the eye of the Arab world. To be sure there are villains in the Arab world too, but to pretend that they are the only ones is to stick your head in the sand.

The roles played by the US, Great Britain and France, too, come to little more than self-serving repressive colonialism of the worst kind. Consider the mess in Iraq. Would the people of Iraq have formed such a country if left to their own devices? It kills me that Britain and the US are fighting to preserve Iraq as a country. Really what is happening is the dumb-ass Belle Epoque colonialism of Great Britain has come around to bite them in the ass and they are still too dumb to recognize it.

[Rue]

J Globe I hear you and I find your comments interesting. I have found

over the years people who try cassify us Jews as all thinking the same about

Israel to be for me very annoying and sometimes deliberately anti-semitic

but other times, just dumb and not intentional.

Here is what I am trying to say. I know conservative Jews who are more

sensitive or open minded on certain issues then me, and I consider myself a reform

or liberal Jew. I also know some Reform Jews who have beliefs far more rigid

then conservatives or even orthodox Jews I know.

I think we Jews have to take our time to explain to non Jews what it means to be Jewish.

They struggle with it because let's face it being Jewish can be a cultural, ethnic, religious, social,

or political concept or a mix thereon and non Jews get quite confused with that.

They get quite confused for example with the idea that some people consider themselves

Jewish but atheist or some people consider themselves Zionists but are not religious

at all.

They also don't get that being a believer in Jewish self-determination doesn't mean we

don't question Israeli policies. What we have learned though is, since there are those

who use the pretense of criticizing Israeli policies to in fact question the right for

Jews to be self-determined, we are careful now what we say probably the same reason

black people would like to be a lot more frank and candid with the problems in their community

but fear doing so may fuel racists.

I think being a Jew in Quebec has always been a very complex phenomena. As you

know Jews from French speaking Arab countries that moved to Quebec sometimes identified with the

seperatists not the federalists.

I think you also know that Jews supported Trudeau first and foremost because respected

Jewish culture and genuinely respected minorities who strove to achieve and use our brains

not just our emotions. He appealed to our intellects but also to our hearts.

Jews also applauded Lester Pearson for his humility and peace keeping efforts in the

Middle East and around the world.

We didn't just support them because they understood what Israel meant to Jews.

We respected them because they respected everyone not just Jews.

Jews in Quebec have traditionally been federalist because this is the country we owe our

loyalty to. In my case, its who my father fought for and who his friends fought for and many died for.

It is the country that has allowed me to be the first generation of Jew in my family not to live in a war or pgrom or have

to be afraid of the police or government. It is a monumental thing and yet something many take for granted.

We Jews in Quebec or elsewhere when we react, sometimes you are right, might over-react. It's possible.

I tell you though as honestly as I can for me, I am absolutely exhausted having to explain over and over

that the desire for Jews to be self-determined is no different then why Christians or Muslims have done it.

I am tired of constantly listening to the same poster(s) engage in generalizations that blur the line between Israeli and Jew and between Israeli

policy and Israelis. I am also tired of the double standard.

In regards to that politician, for me the key thing was support of Hamas.

It ticks me off to no end that anyone would support any terrorist organization for any reason.

That is how I interperated his comments. I may be wrong but that is how they came across.

To me you want to criticize Israel fine, just apply the same criticism to the other side-be consistent, be

fair.

But please do not ask me to look the other way on any terrorist group. I can't. We have brave young men dying in

Afghanistan precisely because we are against terrorists. I honour their mission and respect it and it makes

me proud to be Canadian. They fight and die precisely so I can be free from terror and I will not molly coddle any politician who

plays on that. See I may be a progressive liberal on many things, but on that I am not.

As much as I disagree with many other Harper policies, because I am one of those Kennedy Democrat Trudeau Liberals, when it comes

to foreign policy, I think he has been crystal clear and been a man of integrity particularily on China, Afghanistan, the Middle East.

If someone reads his speeches they can see he supports Abbas as much as he does Israel but what he has not been afraid to come out and say he is against is terror or say China's human rights violations.

I for one was embarassed with Chretien's behaviour on the foreign stage. He acted like a clown and he made a fool of himself in China.

[Higgly]

I think we Jews have to take our time to explain to non Jews what it means to be Jewish.

Actually, Rue, a lot of them don't really care about what it means to be Jewish. What they may care about is what Kissinger referred to as Realpolitik. I know I don't give a damn about what it means to be Jewish. That's your problem. I care more about the fact that there is a constant conflict between the west and the Arab world.

I note your allegiance to Kennedy. You are aware that Kennedy constantly launched attacks against Castro's Cuba - the Bay of Pigs was just the start. He put Bobby in charge of this. So much for self-determination. There are a number of people who think that Castro killed Kennedy for exactly this reason. Let's face it, it wouldn't have been hard to do. There was virtually no security around him and the US considered itself invincible. Kennedy was in fact a pretty nasty guy. He escalated the Vietnam war. The movie "The Ugly American" was about what happened during those times. Kennedy gets too much of a free pass.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Higgly

[jbg]

- I guess I should clarify that I'm Jewish at this point.

What prayer is said by Jews several times a day? And what is first word of Mourner's Kaddish?

I don't believe you're Jewish. I think you're a troll.

[jdobbin]

What prayer is said by Jews several times a day? And what is first word of Mourner's Kaddish?

I don't believe you're Jewish. I think you're a troll.

The Shemoneh Esreh is said at least three times a day. I think it is more on holidays. I never had any Jewish friends who prayed more than the three except maybe on Yom Kippur.

The Mourner's Kaddish from what I saw was an interactive blessing. I have attended enough Jewish weddings, funerals and bar mitzvahs over the years being a Winnipegger. They did have a translation for non-Hebrew speakers. I don't think I have the exact wording but does it start off as something as "Glorious and holy is God's name?" As I said, that is just off the top of my head. I hope it isn't the Burial Kaddish that I am remembering.

I don't think any of this makes me Jewish though.

[Bonam]

What prayer is said by Jews several times a day? And what is first word of Mourner's Kaddish?

While I disagree with many things that JB Globe says, I don't think it's reasonable to use the ability of a person to answer those questions as a "test" of being a Jew. To many people, being a Jew is more a matter of race than of religion.

[M.Dancer]

While I disagree with many things that JB Globe says, I don't think it's reasonable to use the ability of a person to answer those questions as a "test" of being a Jew. To many people, being a Jew is more a matter of race than of religion.

Especially when the answer is but a google away....

Yisgadal Yiskadesh shimayraboh......

No, A good shortarm inspection is a good shibboleth.......I will leave you two alone