JerrySeinfeld Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 Did anyone watch "Live Earth"? I breeezed past it a couple of times while flipping channels. I stopped on it for a bit and the Wembley concert would perodically fill in the blanks between bands with long annoying videos about being "eco-friendly" and how horrible we are to live in a developed part of the world (more self-loathing from the left). As I observed the scene something struck me: The thousands of faces gazing blankly at the screens above- spewing hatred for certain ways that we live our lives- seemed eerily like an indoctrination scene out of George Orwell's 1984. Did anyone else see this and get the same impression? Anyway, I found it kind of strange and, unfortunately, all to familiar in what has ceased to be an intelligent discussion and instead has morphed into some kind of quasi religion. Quote
Mad_Michael Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 Did anyone watch "Live Earth"?I breeezed past it a couple of times while flipping channels. I stopped on it for a bit and the Wembley concert would perodically fill in the blanks between bands with long annoying videos about being "eco-friendly" and how horrible we are to live in a developed part of the world (more self-loathing from the left). As I observed the scene something struck me: The thousands of faces gazing blankly at the screens above- spewing hatred for certain ways that we live our lives- seemed eerily like an indoctrination scene out of George Orwell's 1984. Did anyone else see this and get the same impression? Anyway, I found it kind of strange and, unfortunately, all to familiar in what has ceased to be an intelligent discussion and instead has morphed into some kind of quasi religion. Rightwing accusations of Orwell and 1984 ring hollow to say the least. And as a general rule of thumb, the term "Orwellian" really only ought to be used in the context of a government act. The Live Aid concert project is a private enterprise. Quote
White Doors Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 Rightwing accusations of Orwell and 1984 ring hollow to say the least. Why would you say that? GB is the closest thing to the future dictated by Orwell in 1984 and it has been under labour rule. please do explain. Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
Mad_Michael Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 Rightwing accusations of Orwell and 1984 ring hollow to say the least. Why would you say that? GB is the closest thing to the future dictated by Orwell in 1984 and it has been under labour rule. please do explain. The OP was a critique of the left - accusing the left of being 'Orwellian' regarding environmentalism. Thus, it is a 'rightwing' critique and thus, my amusement, given that it is the rightwing that has such a long history of actualy acting Orwellian. Quote
White Doors Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 Rightwing accusations of Orwell and 1984 ring hollow to say the least. Why would you say that? GB is the closest thing to the future dictated by Orwell in 1984 and it has been under labour rule. please do explain. The OP was a critique of the left - accusing the left of being 'Orwellian' regarding environmentalism. Thus, it is a 'rightwing' critique and thus, my amusement, given that it is the rightwing that has such a long history of actualy acting Orwellian. The right wing acting Orweillian? Why is it that left wing countries have governments that creep further into individual lives than do right wing governments? I think your pre-conceived notion of the right wing being closer to orwellian needs to be re-examined. Ask a libertarian. Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
Mad_Michael Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 (edited) Ask a libertarian. I am a libertarian. The only difference between my view of libertarianism and that of US libertarianism is that I believe in liberty for individuals is a goal in itself. US libertarians generally believe in liberty for capital, and only incidentially support liberty for individuals - though only when it doesn't conflict with liberty for capital. Btw, the term 'Orwellian' is all about reversing the meanings of words to convey opposite meanings to what the words themselves mean. It has NOTHING to do with authoritarianism itself. Many can be authoritarian without being Orwellian. Indeed, many can be Orwellian without being authoritarian (though this is likely to be rare). Edited July 9, 2007 by Mad_Michael Quote
Mad_Michael Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 I think your pre-conceived notion of the right wing being closer to orwellian needs to be re-examined. I think you just earned your right to be totally ignored by me henceforth. Quote
White Doors Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 I think your pre-conceived notion of the right wing being closer to orwellian needs to be re-examined. I think you just earned your right to be totally ignored by me henceforth. My so sensitive. Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
White Doors Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 Ask a libertarian. I am a libertarian. The only difference between my view of libertarianism and that of US libertarianism is that I believe in liberty for individuals is a goal in itself. US libertarians generally believe in liberty for capital, and only incidentially support liberty for individuals - though only when it doesn't conflict with liberty for capital. Btw, the term 'Orwellian' is all about reversing the meanings of words to convey opposite meanings to what the words themselves mean. It has NOTHING to do with authoritarianism itself. Many can be authoritarian without being Orwellian. Indeed, many can be Orwellian without being authoritarian (though this is likely to be rare). But fact is the US is the freest country in the world in regards to individual liberties. Odd. Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
ScottSA Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 (edited) Btw, the term 'Orwellian' is all about reversing the meanings of words to convey opposite meanings to what the words themselves mean. It has NOTHING to do with authoritarianism itself. Many can be authoritarian without being Orwellian. Indeed, many can be Orwellian without being authoritarian (though this is likely to be rare). Not true. Reversing the meanings of words has been well under way for some time. Terms like "freedom" have been co-opted by the positivists to mean precisely the opposite of what it once meant; "equality" no longer refers to equality under the law, but instead to equality of material outcome, and there are any number of words the left has run away with and changed, not least the term "liberal," in an effort to push leftwing right think. Orwellian connotes many things, including political brainwashing, total control by the state of every aspect of one's life, and, to almost anyone with functioning memory cells, a populace standing uncritically in thrall to a message...which is precisely what Jerry quite correctly described. If you must make sweeping generalizations, at least make sure they tend toward being correct. Edited July 9, 2007 by ScottSA Quote
JerrySeinfeld Posted July 9, 2007 Author Report Posted July 9, 2007 Let's try to avoid major generalizations for a moment and stick to the basic premise of my post, which is that I found the style of environmental videos being shown to the masses reeked of indoctrination. Let's aset aside the debate about the science for just one moment, and talk about the STYLE of the eco-nazis. It's very draconian. If you're a scientist and you provide evidence which contradicts the "consensus", you are slandered and ostracized. If you're a radio talk show host who asks David Suzuki about the quality of the science, he has a tantrum and walks out on the interview (this actually happened). If you question why "An Inconvenient Truth", which is LITTERED with complete UNTRUTHS, is being shown to childeren in school as part of the curriculum, you're labeled as an oil company sympathizer. There is a PR firm in Vancouver which has David Suzuki Foundation as a major client. This company has at least one person who'se FULL TIME JOB is to discredit and slander scientists who say anything that contradicts the mantra of global warming. Again, I wish to point out this is not a thread about science, it's a thread about STYLE and OPENNESS TO NEW THOUGHT (which is what science is really all about). If you have a group of people who wish to silence their critics, refuse to engage in intelligent debate and try to perpetuate mythical, false messages created by politicians to gradeschoolers, this behavior borders upon religion, BELIEF and indoctrination, rather than facts and truth. Quote
Sulaco Posted July 9, 2007 Report Posted July 9, 2007 (edited) Ask a libertarian. I am a libertarian. The only difference between my view of libertarianism and that of US libertarianism is that I believe in liberty for individuals is a goal in itself. US libertarians generally believe in liberty for capital, and only incidentially support liberty for individuals - though only when it doesn't conflict with liberty for capital. Btw, the term 'Orwellian' is all about reversing the meanings of words to convey opposite meanings to what the words themselves mean. It has NOTHING to do with authoritarianism itself. Many can be authoritarian without being Orwellian. Indeed, many can be Orwellian without being authoritarian (though this is likely to be rare). Umm no... usually one would use the term "doublespeak" for what you describe. Orwellian is pretty much a word for "totalitarian" with additional connotations of a highly surveiled society. Since you decided to throw "right-wing" about as a term applicable here dare I point out that Orwell's model for his society was the Soviet Union. Many a proponent of left wing ideologies has walked down the path of totalitarianism. Your understanding of American Libertarianism is also sorely lacking. I've had the misfortune, recently while in NY, of picking up a libertarian weekly pamphlet. The topics? A defense of the right of children to exhibit themselves through pornographic images, the standard railing against the war on drugs, a badly written polemic about Big Brother - aka - the American government. Oh - and an anti-anti-smoking article. Very little regarding freedom a capital. Although most libertarians in the US have the wherewithall to realize that property rights and the freedom to exercise them is fundamental to the libertarian programme and without that right few others can be exercised. Who is this pseudo-intellectual anyway? Edited July 9, 2007 by Sulaco Quote Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those who learn from history are doomed to a lifetime of reruns.
GostHacked Posted July 10, 2007 Report Posted July 10, 2007 Rightwing accusations of Orwell and 1984 ring hollow to say the least. Why would you say that? GB is the closest thing to the future dictated by Orwell in 1984 and it has been under labour rule. please do explain. The OP was a critique of the left - accusing the left of being 'Orwellian' regarding environmentalism. Thus, it is a 'rightwing' critique and thus, my amusement, given that it is the rightwing that has such a long history of actualy acting Orwellian. The right wing acting Orweillian? Why is it that left wing countries have governments that creep further into individual lives than do right wing governments? I think your pre-conceived notion of the right wing being closer to orwellian needs to be re-examined. Ask a libertarian. What is really going to blow your mind is that the 'left' and the 'right' in the government are the same. Both sides play the rest of the population for fools. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 10, 2007 Report Posted July 10, 2007 Just to be a pooper, why wasn't a Canadian city on the Live Earth bill? Africa Coca Cola Dome, Randburg near Johannesburg, South Africa North America Giants Stadium, East Rutherford, New Jersey, United States (near New York City) National Mall (i.c. premises/venue of Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian), Washington DC, United States [19] South America Copacabana Beach, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Asia Makuhari Messe, Chiba (Greater Tokyo), Japan Tō-ji, Kyoto, Japan Oriental Pearl Tower, Shanghai, China Oceania Sydney Football Stadium, Moore Park, Sydney, Australia Europe Wembley Stadium, London, United Kingdom HSH Nordbank Arena, Hamburg, Germany Antarctica Rothera Research Station http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_earth Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
marcinmoka Posted July 10, 2007 Report Posted July 10, 2007 Just to be a pooper, why wasn't a Canadian city on the Live Earth bill? Touché. Hamilton or Sudbury would of been ideal venues. Quote " Influence is far more powerful than control"
Sulaco Posted July 10, 2007 Report Posted July 10, 2007 Rightwing accusations of Orwell and 1984 ring hollow to say the least. Why would you say that? GB is the closest thing to the future dictated by Orwell in 1984 and it has been under labour rule. please do explain. The OP was a critique of the left - accusing the left of being 'Orwellian' regarding environmentalism. Thus, it is a 'rightwing' critique and thus, my amusement, given that it is the rightwing that has such a long history of actualy acting Orwellian. The right wing acting Orweillian? Why is it that left wing countries have governments that creep further into individual lives than do right wing governments? I think your pre-conceived notion of the right wing being closer to orwellian needs to be re-examined. Ask a libertarian. What is really going to blow your mind is that the 'left' and the 'right' in the government are the same. Both sides play the rest of the population for fools. And what is really going to blow your mind is that I find your assertion to be laughable. Quote Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those who learn from history are doomed to a lifetime of reruns.
Mad_Michael Posted July 10, 2007 Report Posted July 10, 2007 (edited) Umm no... usually one would use the term "doublespeak" for what you describe. Orwellian is pretty much a word for "totalitarian" with additional connotations of a highly surveiled society. Huh? The adjective 'Orwellian' doesn't mean "totalitarian" or "authoritarian". No new word is needed or used to describe authoritarian or totalitarian regimes. The term 'Orwellian' almost always refers the application of double-speak. For example... I was just checking out one of my favourite blogs today.... Washington Note As you can see, this rather well respected American journalist and foreign policy expert uses the term 'Orwellian' as exactly equal to the meaning of 'double-speak'. Since you decided to throw "right-wing" about as a term applicable here dare I point out that Orwell's model for his society was the Soviet Union. Many a proponent of left wing ideologies has walked down the path of totalitarianism. Yes, I can't imagine anyone doubting this. One never has to look very far to find proponents of authoritarianism on either the left or right. And I'm not sure if Orwell has 'regretted' his earlier enthusiasm in Spain. Your understanding of American Libertarianism is also sorely lacking. I've had the misfortune, recently while in NY, of picking up a libertarian weekly pamphlet. The topics? A defense of the right of children to exhibit themselves through pornographic images, the standard railing against the war on drugs, a badly written polemic about Big Brother - aka - the American government. Oh - and an anti-anti-smoking article. Very little regarding freedom a capital. Although most libertarians in the US have the wherewithall to realize that property rights and the freedom to exercise them is fundamental to the libertarian programme and without that right few others can be exercised. Perhaps you might want to reference the official website of the Libertarian Party? That might be a bit more 'reputable' source of the views of American Libertarianism would it not? You will find 'freedom of capital' to be a major theme over there. Who is this pseudo-intellectual anyway? Whom are you referring to? Orwell? Edited July 10, 2007 by Mad_Michael Quote
M.Dancer Posted July 10, 2007 Report Posted July 10, 2007 I have to agree with Sunoco.....Orwellian to me has always meant intense scrutinyand a lack of personal privacy by the authorities coupled with extreme authoritarianism. Orwellian double speak is a politician saying that only by curtailing our rights can we have freedom.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
ScottSA Posted July 10, 2007 Report Posted July 10, 2007 Orwellian double speak is a politician saying that only by curtailing our rights can we have freedom.... Otherwise known as "positive freedom." Quote
White Doors Posted July 10, 2007 Report Posted July 10, 2007 The term "Orwellian" refers to the following behavior of "the state" or "the party" (especially when the party is the state):The state's manipulation of language for political ends. Obfuscation in naming is a favorite; e.g. WAR IS PEACE. The state's use of language is designed to reduce or eliminate ideas deemed dangerous to its authority. Invasion of personal privacy by the state, whether physically or by means of surveillance. The exercise of total state control in the daily life of citizens, as in a "Big Brother" society. The state's encouragement of policies which contribute to the economic and social disintegration of the family. The substitution of traditional religion with the adoration of the state and/or its leaders. The state's encouragement of "doublethink," whereby the population must learn to embrace inconsistent concepts without dissent; e.g. giving liberty up for freedom. They are the same thing, hence doublethink. The revision of history in the state's favor. A dystopian future. Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
jefferiah Posted July 11, 2007 Report Posted July 11, 2007 I didnt even watch it. Who cares? Let celebrities parade themselves all they want. Quote "Governing a great nation is like cooking a small fish - too much handling will spoil it." Lao Tzu
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 11, 2007 Report Posted July 11, 2007 I didnt even watch it. Who cares? Let celebrities parade themselves all they want. Agreed...people are getting tired of these pampered babies and hypocritical behavior. I remember John Lennon telling me to imagine no possessions from the back seat of his Rolls Royce Phanton V. Maybe some day "celebrities" will be an endangered species. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GostHacked Posted July 11, 2007 Report Posted July 11, 2007 And what is really going to blow your mind is that I find your assertion to be laughable. You and millions more. I get it all the time. What blows my mind is how many people think my assertions are laughable. Quote
kuzadd Posted July 11, 2007 Report Posted July 11, 2007 (edited) The term "Orwellian" refers to the following behavior of "the state" or "the party" (especially when the party is the state):The state's manipulation of language for political ends. Obfuscation in naming is a favorite; e.g. WAR IS PEACE. The state's use of language is designed to reduce or eliminate ideas deemed dangerous to its authority. Invasion of personal privacy by the state, whether physically or by means of surveillance. The exercise of total state control in the daily life of citizens, as in a "Big Brother" society. The state's encouragement of policies which contribute to the economic and social disintegration of the family. The substitution of traditional religion with the adoration of the state and/or its leaders. The state's encouragement of "doublethink," whereby the population must learn to embrace inconsistent concepts without dissent; e.g. giving liberty up for freedom. They are the same thing, hence doublethink. The revision of history in the state's favor. A dystopian future. "manipulation of language for political ends": GWB: " when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." "Invasion of personal privacy by the state, whether physically or by means of surveillance." wow NSA spying! round-ups, renditions "The substitution of traditional religion with the adoration of the state and/or its leaders. " Just ask the 'christian right" GWB is to be revered and prayed over at Jesus Camp. They make movies about this guy, yikes "The state's encouragement of "doublethink," whereby the population must learn to embrace inconsistent concepts without dissent; e.g. giving liberty up for freedom. They are the same thing, hence doublethink." Giving up liberty for freedom, hey, we have proponents of that right here, on this forum , a dystopian future? Hm? it's here already. Edited July 11, 2007 by kuzadd Quote Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person's character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions. Derogatory terms such as "loser", "idiot", etc are not permitted unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Rule of thumb: Play the ball, not the person (i.e. tackle the argument, not the person making it).
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