Fear and Profit

[Rue]

"Which begs the question: If she is so successful in this manner, and has a economic boom currently in these 'war' related avenues - they why oh why is the US still funding her with aid MORE than any other country? I think Israel is now ranked somewhere within the 20 most wealthy states - so why not only the continuence of AID but also the increasing of AiD?"

Because Zionists control the White House, the banks, Hollywood. Man isn't it obvious how they manipulate the world for their own benefit?

I mean I am suprised I have to tell you that.

More to the point, why don't you admit to Buffy you make your living selling military weapons. Come clean.

[buffycat]

"Which begs the question: If she is so successful in this manner, and has a economic boom currently in these 'war' related avenues - they why oh why is the US still funding her with aid MORE than any other country? I think Israel is now ranked somewhere within the 20 most wealthy states - so why not only the continuence of AID but also the increasing of AiD?"

Because Zionists control the White House, the banks, Hollywood. Man isn't it obvious how they manipulate the world for their own benefit?

I mean I am suprised I have to tell you that.

More to the point, why don't you admit to Buffy you make your living selling military weapons. Come clean.

Lame Rue, lame.

I haven't ever said the things you elude to in your above tirade. I actually see a difference between peoples and their governmental admins. I do not lump all Jews in with the Israeli Admins. Just as I won't lump all Canadians in with our own Admins. YOU have - clearly here.

Sad Rue, while your answers are usually overly verbose - you don't usually stoop so low as to write the junk in the above post. As I said: Lame. Did you megaphone go off? Hasbarfa alert?

sheesh.

Israel benefits from the instability - plain and simple. So to do factions at work in the PA - or anywhere else whose main aim is power - not the people. Same folks different hats.

Israel could have and still can do much to calm the waters - she won't, it's not in her Administrations interest to do so. It would be simple though: Leave the occupied territories and allow the Palestinians their right to self determination (something that many Israelis DO recognize and support).

WRT Naomi, I like her writing always have. You might not, each to his own.

Now, I await your next 'book' on the issue.

Please, do send me a hasbarfa alert!

[BC_chick]

Rue and Scott, please take note - the whole anti-semitism rebuttal is getting extremely tedious. People complaining about Canada for clubbing baby-seals is not anti-multiculturalism. You guys going on about Iran's nuclear program is not anti-Muslimism (or so you claim). If you want to go on equating any comment and/or criticism about Israel on anti-semitism, be prepared to accept that you yourselves are therefore anti-Muslim by your own logic (since you are very critical of Muslim regimes).

I will not respond to any argument which comes with the complimentary anti-semitism accusation you all can't seem to forego in every post.

Get over yourselves already. Israel is a country, it has been for 60+ years now. As such, she's open to be commented upon by critics just like France, the US, Iran, Pakistan or anywhere else in the world.

Geez, persecution complex or what!

[Rue]

And Buffy said; " I haven't ever said the things you elude to in your above tirade. Hasbarfa alert?

Israel benefits from the instability - plain and simple. WRT Naomi, I like her writing always have. ow, I await your next 'book' on the issue. Please, do send me a hasbarfa alert!"

Now Ms. Buffy its Hasbara Alert. I also appreciate when someone tries to respond with facts as opposed to opinions you find it verbose.

Here let me speak in small sentences. Yes 80% of Israel's exports in 2006 were high tech. Israel exported about $4 billion in defence equipment of which 1.5 billion of it went to India. It may also interest you to know Israel is China's second largest military supplier next to Russia and then Israel's $4 billion in exports is about 10% of world military sales in 2006 and the US, European Union, Russia and Japan, continue to be in that order, the world's largest military suppliers. You may also want to check out just how much Canada sells in military exports (yes more then Israel) and how much it sold to Israel!!!

Now then Buffy, of that 80% of exports the vast majority of it was not military. It was telecommunications, medical electronics, fiber optics, electro-optics, inspection systems for circuit boards, robotics, computer imaging systems, and education programs.

Guess what else Buffy. Tourism and shipping exports were 9.5 billion, polished diamonds 5 billion in 2006 and already 3.4 billion in 2007, and you know what Buffy, 21.5% of Israel's eports are chemicals, plastics and minerals.

Israelis sold $801 million worth of flowers, fruit and vegetables and 1.4 billion in agro-technology, i.e.,

252 milllion in drilling and irrigation equipment, 107 mil. in seeds. 5.5% of its exports are textiles and another 3.5% is food and beverages.

Now I know you are not interested in facts Buffy but here are some more. The average Israeli has debt, and pays huge taxes and lives very modestly. The reason for that is because the country is small, has limited resources, and has huge debts causing inflation.

Now Buffy many Israelis (and they are yegads a lot of times Jews Buffy) are physicians, scientists, technologists. Not all of them becomne stand up comedians.They go to this thing called university and they study. But you know heaven forbid we suggest Israelis educate themselves and study hard. Why would we say something like that right Buffy?

Now I am going to say it one time. Israel does not benefit from anyone's tragedy Buffy and for you to say that in such an off-handed way is what riles me. It does infer Israel makes money from blood and you know it. Any expertise it has learned from being under constant attack such as surveillance, night vision, sattelite technology, surveillance equipment, guess what Buffy, is not just used to kill, it can be used to save lives and it is used for civilian things such as the tracking systems for search and rescue or police equipment or for airplanes and soon your car (pink no doubt).

Also Israel has a very developed pharmaceutical industry and medical devices industry precisely because of all the Israelis blown up by bombs requiring it be highly advanced in medical rehabilitation and emergency services which Buffy is also used on Palestinians who have access to Israeli hospitals for cancer treatments, etc.

It has about 150 military associated companies but sorry Buffy no more then that and most of the equipment is very niche, i.e., its not weapons its electronic systems that have both civilian and military uses. And yes Buffy I do not like the idea it sells technology to China. Then again you should see who Canada, the US, The European Union and Russia sell to before you get your knickers twisted.

Yes I know. Israel in your mind benefits from tragedy.

No doubt you boycott Israel products. But hey I know you don't blame the people in the country just their evil administration.

p.s. you know Buffy its a shame you boycott Israel products. You could do with some Manishewitz wine to wash down some of that bitter taste for Israel you have.

Also Buffy I do not doubt you love your mayonaisse and wonder bread but you know what, you really should have a falafel. Its not just Israeli. You can call it Lebanese and make it proper. I won't even sugest a kocher dill pickle or some matzoh (its made from blood).

[Argus]

Rue and Scott, please take note - the whole anti-semitism rebuttal is getting extremely tedious.

How about that logic thing too? Bet that's really getting annoying. I mean, one of these days you might have to start to consider using some yourself to respond to the very clear and obvious logic and facts in the posts which disagree with you.

I'm not counting on that happening any time soon, though.

There were an awful lot of facts in the posts you refer to above and beyond their suggestion you and Buffycat were just a pair of jew haters. You managed to ignore it all quite nicely. Why, it's almost as if facts aren't important, as if your motivation for posting your absurd, anti-Israel accusations had nothing to do with the facts at all.

[Rue]

Rue and Scott, please take note - the whole anti-semitism rebuttal is getting extremely tedious. People Geez, persecution complex or what!

But do you raise such arguements and criticize other countries the same way? Well do you? When was the last time you wrote in and suggested France, the USA, The European Union, Japan, Russia make their money from the suffering of others?

Why the double standard? It may seem like a persecution complex to you, but to me when I see the arguement that singles out Israel as making its money off the suffering of others and that is the inference is it not-then you bet I call it for what it is simply an updated version of the sinister Jew making blood money stereotype and no BC Chick its not an accident you used a Christian religious term.

See you may think its all sweet and innocent including using Christian terms like epiphany and insisting you are not engaging in anything anti-semitic but I suggest to you its so deeply entrenched in your psyche, you may not even be aware of it and how it comes across and yes as a Jew maybe I notice it precisely because I am not a gentile livi8ng in BC who uses phrases like epiphany.

BC I doubt you are intentionally bigoted. I do not doubt you are a good, idealistic person and yes I respect your opinions and Buffy's. No I do not expect you to agree with me. What I would kindly challenge you to do is ask yourself-what are the implications of suggesting Israel "benefits" from turmpoil economically. Just what does such a concept really enforce?

How is it when Israel does well, its portrayed as unethical and based on blood? Of course Israel is also portrayed as controlling the US senate and congress and engaged in a conspiracy to control world markets, Hollywood, banks. Come on BC Chick, isn't that where it ends up? Isn't that where such discussions always end up?

All I am asking you to do is analyze how Israel's economy works and not turn it into a simplistic stereotype. I expect that from the Kuzadds of the world not you.

Yah I know. Some of your best friends are gentiles.

[BC_chick]

Why the double standard. I will tell you why BC Chick. It may seem like a persecution complex to you, but to me when I see the arguement that singles out Israel as making its money off the suffering of others or unethically and that is the inference is it not-then you bet I call it for what it is simply an updated version of the sinister Jew making blood money and no BC Chick its not an accident you used a Christian religious term.

See you may think its all sweet and innocent using Christian terms like epiphany and insisting you are not engaging in anything anti-semitic but I suggest to you its so deeply entrenched in your psyche, its only natural for you to trot it out and not even be aware of it just as it probably totally escaped your mind how you used a Christian religious term to describe your sudden vision and awareness of the true Israel.

Yah I know, you harbour no stereotypes of Israelis being unethical and making blood money and it is not related at all to how Jews have been described as making their money for centuries. Not at all.

BC I doubt you intended to be deliberately anti-semitic. I know that. I really do think you are a genuine, idealistic person. What I am saying though is, no look to your own conceptions and ask why you phrase them the way you do and why you only seem to pay attention to only certain articles.

Yah I know. Some of your best friends are gentiles.

Double-standard eh? Well, as I said before, using the same logic, your double-standard in your criticism of Muslim countries shows that you are anti-Muslim.

See how ridiculous that sounds?

Or do you? Maybe you ARE unable to distinguish between a regime and a people and that's why you assume all of Israel's critics must be anti-semitic?

PS.... I highlighted that key-passage which shows how entrenched your persecution complex is.

[Rue]

"Well, as I said before, using the same logic, your double-standard in your criticism of Muslim countries shows that you are anti-Muslim."

No when I criticize terrorist groups or the foreign policy of Islamic countries, or those individuals who claim to be Muslims who are fundamentalists, I do not criticize Muslims as a people nor do I engage in stereotypes of Muslims.

"Maybe you ARE unable to distinguish between a regime and a people and that's why you assume all of Israel's critics must be anti-semitic?"

No I know the difference and most of us do. The criticism was not directed at the Israeli government, it was directed at how its people live and make their living. It necessarily suggests Israelis make blood money and make their money unethically and that is precisely why I have challenged it.

BC Chick how is suggesting Israelis are unethical and dishonest and make their money from others misfortunes, anything but a slur of people and not their governments?

Please explain because BC you can't make slurs about an entire people and then pretend you are simply discussing its government. You not I fused and confused the people with the government.

[BC_chick]

No when I criticize terrorist groups or the foreign policy of Islamic countries, or those individuals who claim to be Muslims who are fundamentalists, I do not criticize Muslims as a people nor do I engage in stereotypes of Muslims.

No I know the difference and most of us do. The criticism was not directed at the Israeli government, it was directed at how its people live and make their living. It necessarily suggests Israelis make blood money and make their money unethically and that is precisely why I have challenged it.

BC Chick how is suggesting Israelis are unethical and dishonest and make their money from others misfortunes, anything but a slur of people and not their governments?

Please explain because BC you can't make slurs about an entire people and then pretend you are simply discussing its government. You not I fused and confused the people with the government.

So in your opinion, your criticism of say Iran's nuclear program is just criticism, but pointing out Israel's profiteering from arms-sales (fourth in the world) or criticising its occupation of the West Bank is anti-semitism.

Thanks for setting the record straight.

As for me making slurs against "an entire people" please feel free to point out anywhere where I do that...

Read my posts in this thread carefully, I've said again and again that the reason this article resonated with me was because it did not paint one side as bad and another as good like other articles do. To me, all good or all bad is against human-nature, whereas profitng from chaos IS something I can fathom.

But you INTERPRETING that as me saying ONLY Jews profit from mayhem (or better yet, that they are doing it BECAUSE they're Jews) shows what I'm trying to tell you about your own psyche - you have a deeply entrenched persecution complex.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I have read virtually every opinion amongst the spectrum of opinions as to why the situation in the Middle-East is what at the present moment (not to be confused with its historical causes of course). From the one extreme proposal that evil that lurks amongst anyone who believes in the faith of Islam to the flip-side argument that Jews are inherently deceptive and are pulling the wool over the eyes of the world with their self-serving version of events through control of the mass media. I have seen and read them all.

No opinion has given me the moment of "epiphany" when all of a sudden it all makes sense. All seem to have some sort of illogical flaw in them, perhaps because most are based on a premise which pits the divisions strictly along racial or religious lines and IMO such black and white notions of the world are against the rules of human nature.

Today, I read an article in the Georgia Straight (Vancouver's local alternative weekly) which was my moment of epiphany about the reality of present-day Israel in the ME conflict.

For anyone who is interested:

Here's the link.

The "what" of the conflict has been well documented... but, this article puts forth a fantastic "why" which is, IMO, the most compelling reconciliation of logic and human nature when it comes to this debate.

Gee. Capital investment in a free enterprise economy is directed toward a timely and profitable industry - what a novel concept

This column just embarasingly illustrates how out of touch with basic economics the far left really is.

[sharkman]

Rue, you slayed this thread.

[jbg]

I don't think, Israel, like the US would prefer to operate within a peaceful world, or neither country would go to such great lengths, to foment war.

Interestingly I have been reading the book "Puppetmasters" oh what a tangled web we weave!

In the book, Mossad, had contacted terrorist groups in Italy (Red Brigades), as the interest in destabilizing italy was present and beneficial to Israel, so that Israel, could be the "most stable ally" in the region of the ME.

One has to look at everything from the INTERESTS of the country.

There are a great many reasons why/how Israel benefits from the instability around it.

Wow, next you'll hear that the Israelis add blood of Muslims to their Pesach matzohs.

[kuzadd]

I don't think, Israel, like the US would prefer to operate within a peaceful world, or neither country would go to such great lengths, to foment war.

Interestingly I have been reading the book "Puppetmasters" oh what a tangled web we weave!

In the book, Mossad, had contacted terrorist groups in Italy (Red Brigades), as the interest in destabilizing italy was present and beneficial to Israel, so that Israel, could be the "most stable ally" in the region of the ME.

One has to look at everything from the INTERESTS of the country.

There are a great many reasons why/how Israel benefits from the instability around it.

Wow, next you'll hear that the Israelis add blood of Muslims to their Pesach matzohs.

sorry, just discussing something out of the book, tough for you!

Look at a map. Think about how much aid italy and israel both get from the US.

military bases etc.,

Use some common sense.

Oh never mind.

"The Italian investigating judge Ferdinando Imposimato asserted in 1982 that the Red Brigades had been infiltrated by the Israeli Mossad no later than 1978. Based on testimony from two jailed former members of the Red Brigades, Imposimato reported that the Mossad had provided the Italian terrorists with weapons, money, and information"

[kuzadd]

I agree with your above comment Kuzadd.

Yah, you never think at all, that is quite clear.

vacuous.

Does anyone notice, Rue promotes stereotypes of Jewish people relentlessly?

The very same one Hitler promoted?

of the Rich and Powerful Jew???

read Rue's comments, one will notice it over and over

it's odd.

[kuzadd]

[

So in your opinion, your criticism of say Iran's nuclear program is just criticism, but pointing out Israel's profiteering from arms-sales (fourth in the world) or criticising its occupation of the West Bank is anti-semitism.

Thanks for setting the record straight.

As for me making slurs against "an entire people" please feel free to point out anywhere where I do that...

Read my posts in this thread carefully, I've said again and again that the reason this article resonated with me was because it did not paint one side as bad and another as good like other articles do. To me, all good or all bad is against human-nature, whereas profitng from chaos IS something I can fathom.

But you INTERPRETING that as me saying ONLY Jews profit from mayhem (or better yet, that they are doing it BECAUSE they're Jews) shows what I'm trying to tell you about your own psyche - you have a deeply entrenched persecution complex.

lol, is right!

BC chick.

criticism is criticism is criticism and Israel as a nation state, can be criticized , just as much as any other nation state, and if Israel's government acts in a manner that is outrageous, perhaps, they will garner more criticism then say, Jamaica?

That's the way it is, simple as that.

All nation states can be criticized as evidenced by criticism of iran nuclear power program.

what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

It only becomes problematic when some posters cannot ever discuss in a rational manner, and feel, ONLY,and EXCLUSIVELY, Arab countries are deserving of criticism and no other countries are.

This is a display of complete irrationality, and BC chick, "persecution complex" is quite good also.

"A persecution complex is a term given to an array of psychologically complex behaviours, that specifically deals with the perception of being persecuted, for various possible reasons, imagined or real."

[buffycat]

Does anyone notice, Rue promotes stereotypes of Jewish people relentlessly?

The very same one Hitler promoted?

of the Rich and Powerful Jew???

read Rue's comments, one will notice it over and over

it's odd.

It's not just Rue, it is also other posters who do this. While Rue is rather verbose - he is not as guilty as certain other folks on here who perpetuate a negative stereotype - why just look at this little gem from jbg:

"Wow, next you'll hear that the Israelis add blood of Muslims to their Pesach matzohs."

It implies that those who don't agree with the "any criticism of Israel is anti-semitism" mantra run around thinking and saying these sorts of things too. It diverts the thread and ends rational discussion - it also insults the intelligence of the other thread participants. But hey, that's part of the game.

It's completely counter-productive and is meant to be.

It could have been pointed out that it is not only Israel (certain elements anyways) who profit enormously from the so called War on Terror - many US firms do too - and Canadian suppliers. I don't think anyone would automatically jump in and say "Ohhh and Americans use the blood of Muslims in their Freedom Fries!!" Sounds rather silly doesn't it? Again, it also adds nothing. Anyways, the thread itself could have been an interesting discussion about how many lands, including Israel DO profit from the misery of others - instead though it turns into an accusitory bash fest of anyone who might have something critical to say about some Israeli policies.

I think you know the drill well Kuzadd - they do it to anyone they disagree with whether the subject is Israel, Iraq, US Imperialism, 9/11 official lies, the Drug Wars - anything. There is no real desire to engage in rational debate - it's a mudsling fest for them. Ad hominen, misdirection yadda yadda.

It's tiresome and old.

[scribblet]

Rue and Scott, please take note - the whole anti-semitism rebuttal is getting extremely tedious. People Geez, persecution complex or what!

But do you raise such arguements and criticize other countries the same way? Well do you? When was the last time you wrote in and suggested France, the USA, The European Union, Japan, Russia make their money from the suffering of others?

Why the double standard? It may seem like a persecution complex to you, but to me when I see the arguement that singles out Israel as making its money off the suffering of others and that is the inference is it not-then you bet I call it for what it is simply an updated version of the sinister Jew making blood money stereotype and no BC Chick its not an accident you used a Christian religious term.

All good points Rue, the double standards abound when it comes to Israel.

[BC_chick]

Rue and Scott, please take note - the whole anti-semitism rebuttal is getting extremely tedious. People Geez, persecution complex or what!

But do you raise such arguements and criticize other countries the same way? Well do you? When was the last time you wrote in and suggested France, the USA, The European Union, Japan, Russia make their money from the suffering of others?

Why the double standard? It may seem like a persecution complex to you, but to me when I see the arguement that singles out Israel as making its money off the suffering of others and that is the inference is it not-then you bet I call it for what it is simply an updated version of the sinister Jew making blood money stereotype and no BC Chick its not an accident you used a Christian religious term.

All good points Rue, the double standards abound when it comes to Israel.

Rue has been snipping out the most important part of all my arguments in her posts and/or pretending she didn't read it. It was the following:

If someone's "obsession" about Israel is anti-semitism, what do you call an "obsession" about with Muslim-regimes - anti-Muslimism? I think you would be the perfect person to ask about this with your endless threads about Iran.

For the record - I'm pointing out the irony, not agreeing, I wish you guys would play by the same rules when it comes to yourselves.... criticising Iran/Israel should be one or the other - hate or geniune concern. Pick one and let's go with it.

But please stop with the ridiculous double-standard.

[White Doors]

I get it now.. The 'instability' in the Middle East is caused by the Jooos. They keep this 'instability' ruse going so they can make money off of it.

Ahh.. How 1930's of her! What a stunning revelation!

Naomi Klein.. Why oh why does the far left hate Israel so?

[Bonam]

Of course companies make money off war. The same can be said of companies in most other countries. The US sells tons of weapons and other military equipment, as does Russia. Sure, being involved in instability provides an extra incentive to your nation's industry to develop new military systems, some of which can be sold internationally.

However, peace can be very lucrative too. The article even says that prior to 2000, Israel was one of the leaders in high tech and internet development and much of its economy was based on that. Today, that sector of the economy is booming worldwide once again, and Israel could is still a big player in it. Those Israeli companies that currently make military systems would have no shortage of other things to do if they weren't busy developing technology to enhance Israel's security. Peace would be just as good for the economy as continued violence, or perhaps better.

Honestly, the linked article does nothing but state the obvious: "companies in countries at war develop military systems and sell them". How is this unique to Israel, or an explanation of either the origin or the continuation of violence in the middle-east?

The USA made VAST amounts of money from WWII, boosting it from a stagnant and non-leading economy to the economic powerhouse of the world. Does that mean that the US government wanted WWII to keep going longer, for more American soldiers to die fighting in Europe or in the Pacific? No, they didn't, and they did everything they could to end the war quickly. The same is true for Israel. If Israel had a way to end the violence that constantly troubles it, you can bet that they'd choose the lives of the Israeli civilians and soldiers that are killed on a regular basis over a few million dollars of extra earnings by their defense contractors.

[ScottSA]

Rue and Scott, please take note - the whole anti-semitism rebuttal is getting extremely tedious. People complaining about Canada for clubbing baby-seals is not anti-multiculturalism. You guys going on about Iran's nuclear program is not anti-Muslimism (or so you claim). If you want to go on equating any comment and/or criticism about Israel on anti-semitism, be prepared to accept that you yourselves are therefore anti-Muslim by your own logic (since you are very critical of Muslim regimes).

But I do admit to being anti-Islamic government. I freely and often and quite loudly admit to being entirely anti-Muslim. I'm surprised you missed that. In fact, I may take out a billboard advertising my anti-Islamic sentiments (just as soon as I can afford a bulletandbombproof car and house). I'm also proudly anti-Iranian nuclear program, and more so because the country is influenced by Mad Islamic Mullahs, against whom I'm also anti. I also happen to be pro-clubbing baby seals, pro-crab boiling, pro-global warming, but those are asides and irrelevant here.

You and others attack Israel constantly. As the Lutwak article pointed out, fewer Palestinians have been killed in the entire history of Israel than in one good season in Darfur...not to mention any of the myraid other conflicts around the world...yet somehow the left's attention is glued to this particular, largely self-inflicted, conflict. Why is that? And why is there an incredible willingness on your part to believe that one side is the aggressor in spite of the rather obvious falsity of that position? Why indeed?

[BC_chick]

Good to see you're open about your prejudices Scott... very few can admit it. I guess that's why you assume that anti-Israel talk is really anti-semitism because you think everyone's mind functions like yours.

Well, I disagree. I believe that most of the people who say things about Islamic countries are speaking of geniune concern. Then there are the likes of you who admit to not liking Muslims. Likewise, there are some who geniunely criticise Israel as a country but have no ill-feeling toward Jews, and there are those the critics who do hate Jews.

You can't lump everyone as one. You do not hide your disdain for Muslims and are vocal about it so it's fair game to call you a Muslim-hater and you seem to not take offense to it. But to be called anti-semitic when I have never said anything bad about Jews in my life bothers me. Maybe you'd understand that if your bigotry wasn't something you were proud of.

As for Darfur.... please! Don't assume you know where my priorities are. If I had the resources to fix the biggest challenges of today, Darfur would be at the top of my list... followed by Iraq (actually those two could very well be tied for first place), then Palestine.... In fact, Sarkozy scored serious points with me yesterday for finally speaking out against Darfur and mentioning what nobody wants to say.

Why then you might wonder there are no Darfur threads on this forum?

Because in order to have a D-I-S-C-U-S-S-I-O-N you need two sides of an argument. Does anyone in their right mind DEFEND the slaughter? That doesn't make much for a good debate does it... unlike the Israel/Palestine situation.

All this name-calling has gotta stop.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Commies like Klein are so out of touch they think they're making a big revelation when they pronounce that they have "discovered" that firms in free enterprise countries allocate their capital to timely, profitable businesses.

Why is this news? Why is this an issue? Why are we supposed to care?

The real shocker would be to have this big war and all kinds of people knocking at their door trying to annihalate them - and no companies had any interest in seing the investment opportunity. THAT would be interesting fodder for discussion.