Explanations needed

[betsy]

And had used a child in one of the most recent bombing, I think.

This proves other criteria must be included with hate to perform such a dastardly deed.

For instance why is it easier for some cultures/races to pull the trigger to kill someone or drive a knife deep in the body of someone, to purposely kill that individual?

The answer IMO is the level or degree of civilized behavior is embedded in that individuals mind which is influenced dramatically, by the degree of uncivilized behavior that individual is exposed to in their country of origin, combined with hate.

This is where I think our government as let Canadians down relating to all ethnic immigration from third world countries is not factoring in the level of civilized behavior and forcing the burden and potential life threatening ramifications onto a higher civilized Canadian population.

So relating to all Muslims in general from Islamic countries the only criteria separating a non violent Muslim as compared to the terrorist variety, is non-civilized and civilized behavior, with both behaviors obviously both actively pursued to whatever unknown degree in Muslim Islamic countries.

This is of course complicated by the fact there is no standard currently available to measure the degree of hate and civilized behavior thereby making all Muslims in general a potential risk as immigrants to Canada.

Just the usual image of how these people react, and express their emotions - whether they be celebrating or mourning - firing their automatic weapons into the air, clearly shows a very vivid picture.

Their expression of anger usually causes someone's death...or slaughter! A bloodbath is a common occurence.

It is not civilized behaviour.

[buffycat]

As usual, this thread has descended into a Hate thread itself against over a billion of the world's inhabitants. How nice and how reminiscent.

Way to go guys.

[scribblet]

I don't see a whole lot of difference, either way it is the extremists who seem to be dominating.

Part of the problem is that in much of the Muslim world they fail to grasp how the western world became so successful, they fail to understand that is not genes or geography. Their leaders won't or can't speak out and admit they are poor because nearly half of their people are semi- illiterate, they do not have a free and open society. They also fail to understand that their fundamentalists and Sharia law based societies hamper any economic or cultural advancement. As long as they live mired in mediaval thought and laws they will always be lagging behind.

It would also be nice if we could discuss these issues without the fixation on wet dreams etc.

[sharkman]

As usual, this thread has descended into a Hate thread itself against over a billion of the world's inhabitants. How nice and how reminiscent.

Way to go guys.

More nonsense from someone who can't abide with anything negative towards Islamist terrorists, but loves to smear the groups she loves to hate.

[buffycat]

As usual, this thread has descended into a Hate thread itself against over a billion of the world's inhabitants. How nice and how reminiscent.

Way to go guys.

More nonsense from someone who can't abide with anything negative towards Islamist terrorists, but loves to smear the groups she loves to hate.

Hi Sharkman, How are you today?

Anything to add to the conversation? Perhaps a little insight from you as to why so many inhabitants of the ME hold rather negative opinions of the US and the West?

You guys with your constant one-sidedness and undying support for a racist regime remind me of another racist regime from days gone past. Can you guess who that might be? Your rhetoric is resoundingly familiar!

Just for the record, I do not condone terrorism in any form - whether it comes from a desperate fundamentalist strapping a bomb on his body - or a desperate fundamentalist who straps a few bombs to his plane and levels a whole neighbourhood.

Get off your high horse of BS.

Many in the ME have VERY good reasons to want to see the US OUT of their region.

The hypocrisy on this board by the likes of you and your cohorts is astounding. There are Assholes in every group on this planet - no religious or ethnic group is spared - not even your precious Israelis and Saudis and Pakistanes, or Germans, or French, or Canadians, or Christians, or Muslims or anyone.

So, comment on the thread - WHY do they 'hate' us?

Can YOU answer that with anything other than your usual dribble and lies?

No? Ha! didn't think so.

[southerncomfort]

Can YOU answer that with anything other than your usual dribble and lies?

No? Ha! didn't think so.

Gee what an enlightened post gotta remember that debating technique no credibility left at all

[jbg]

Why do terrorists hate us?

Why do they hate freedom?

If any of you people can come up with some intelligent arguments as to the why, I would love to hear it. I am pretty damn sick of hearing 'All well they are terrorists, they hate us and freedom'.

WHY? NAME YOUR REASONS?

My own take is that if a society's customs would be threatened by the flow of information and influence from the outside world, the natural reaction is fear, panic, reaction and blowback. The groups characterized by terrorism are generally "top-down", and often organized in tribal rather than nation-state manner (I mean real organization, not the superficial gloss).

When the spread, first, of world trade (think Marco Polo), colonialism (to rope down earlier reactions to trade as piracy and threats to travellers), and later globalization and the Internet, as well as the existance of outlier countries such as Israel and Singapore seemingly spells doom to these societies, they react - violently.

[GostHacked]

Betsy. I have seen the Power of Nightmares, and am familiar with Sayyid Qutb. Interesting series really.

But...

In 1948, Sayyid Qutb visited the United States for Egypt’s Ministry of Education. His stay left him shocked with what he perceived as moral degeneracy and sexual promiscuity.

And then he

There, Wahhabis linked with radical followers of Sayyid Qutb, an alliance Baer likens to "mixing nitroglycerin in a blender."{31} A new, more militant strain of Wahhabism developed in addition to mainstream Wahabbism, with a new emphasis on taking the fight to outsiders: the infidels and the West.{32}

Seems hypocritical to accept assistance from those you hate to fight off another enemy. Now we have those same groups fighting back at us. Something termed 'blowback'.

ScottSA, you made an interesting comparison with the Hitler and Jews thing. Slander the other to fit your worldview. The thing is no one really sits down (besides most of you here) and reads and thinks about why the hate exists. How the hell did it get to this point anyways? People start to take a step back, look back at history and learn a few things. This is part of my goal here as well. Find out why this hate exists. And if you are the cause of it, how can you stop it.

I know to say they hate us is pretty ignorant. Just because, right? Right. Has my actions of previous years come back to haunt me? I may not recall everything I have done bad in my life, but I can bet someone remembers something about it. People do hold grudges for a long time. Over something really stupid as well. Some explanation is in order and then we can all get on with our lives in peace.

Now again, as an outsider of religion, I asked to have the religion side taken out of it. For once you take that out, it really does get down to it of hate, just because. No more religious context to put it into. I know it is hard to do that with most of you who are passionate about your respective religions, however, once that is taken away from you, most of you seem lost. Like it defined you and who you are. Without it, you are nothing.

Hitler did a great job of portraying the Jews as parasites and needed to be dealt with. Manufactured hate. Installed hate. Learned hate. Really dangerous.

When the spread, first, of world trade (think Marco Polo), colonialism (to rope down earlier reactions to trade as piracy and threats to travellers), and later globalization and the Internet, as well as the existance of outlier countries such as Israel and Singapore seemingly spells doom to these societies, they react - violently.

Can there be genuine trade between cultures, integration or even segragation but yet respect the others beleifs if left alone and they don't bother anyone? Actually, me and a pal were talking about that the other day, Internet here, people still plowing fields with animals there. Such huge culture gaps, and sometimes shock of how different things are all over the place.

Poverty in the places where people hate us come from. Works for urban sprawls, why can't the same concept work on a larger scale? Perceived and learned hate.

[betsy]

Now again, as an outsider of religion, I asked to have the religion side taken out of it. For once you take that out, it really does get down to it of hate, just because. No more religious context to put it into. I know it is hard to do that with most of you who are passionate about your respective religions, however, once that is taken away from you, most of you seem lost. Like it defined you and who you are. Without it, you are nothing.

We could indulge you....but then, it wouldn't really be delving into the real reasons for this hatred, would it?

So we just sort of "skim" over this?

You wanted the "nitty-gritty". Religion, I'm afraid - no matter how we try to ignore or delude ourselves - is a big part of the nitty-gritty.

Being an outsider of religion - what does that mean? You don't want to discuss anything that brings religion into it - even though it very much plays a very major role about this hatred - just because you do not believe in any religion?

You wanted explanations - I take it because you want to understand. How will you understand if you don't go all the way?

And no, once religion is taken away from this discussion, we are not lost. BUT the discussion is lost.

This will be like the touted so-called "peer-review"....with results being rigged!

Unless of course I misunderstood what you wish to attain of this topic. I was responding to your questions: Why do they hate us. Why do they hate freedom?

So what are you really angling at?

[betsy]

Osama bin Laden in his declaration of war in the 1990s said it was U.S. troops on the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia, U.S. bombing and sanctions of a crushed Iraqi people, and U.S. support of Israel's persecution of the Palestinians that were the reasons he and his mujahideen were declaring war on us.

Elsewhere, he has mentioned Sykes-Picot, the secret British-French deal that double-crossed the Arabs who had fought for their freedom alongside Lawrence of Arabia and were rewarded with a quarter century of British-French imperial domination and humiliation.

Almost all agree that, horrible as 9/11 was, it was not anarchic terror. It was political terror, done with a political motive and a political objective.

WITH RELIGION in the lead. Bin Laden and his merrymen had been training in various places.

Are you forgetting those pilots? Those pathetic martyrs drooling over the images of virgins awaiting them in paradise if they blow themselves up with the planes?

If there are no volunteers for martyrdom, I wonder if Bin Laden will volunteer to do the job for the sake of - political terror?

And who gave Bin Laden sanctuary? The Taliban!

[betsy]

They 'hate' us because we've been over there KILLING them.

I think it is pretty simple, no need to bring religion into it.

Hmmmm....

Why, oh why are you guys so afraid of us bringing up religion?

Gee, it's not as if we'd try to convert you!

So everything is that simple eh? Just out of curiousity....how far back are we talking here when you say,

"we've been over there KILLING them?"

[capricorn]

I always thought that the spread of western culture into the Middle East was one of the principle causes of hatred for the west. For example, Iraq was quite “westernized” in the early 70s before Saddam came to power. He quickly snuffed that out and Iraqis returned to their previous customs and they descended into poverty. I think Al Quaeda and their ilk use the Islamic religion as the backdrop in inciting their people to rise up against the west. The end game is to drive westerners out of the Middle East and to spread Islamic government and religion throughout the world.

The world as we knew it in the 80s is shrinking due to technological advancements, instantaneous communications and, trade and commerce between nations worldwide. The Global City, so to speak.

“Globalization: A Catalyst for Terrorism and Global Destabilization?

“The object here is not to lay blame on globalization for the hostilities to it, nor to excuse hostile or malevolent reactions.

It is, however, worthy of understanding, not only sources of global instability today, but the catalyst setting off these forces into an aggressive-defensive mode.”

snip

"For this purpose I propose the question -- Is the increase of terrorism and the radicalization of Islam over the past few decades an effect of globalization? Furthermore, are many of the tensions between nations today related to the transition of nations from self dependent sovereign states, to a world of nations which are becoming increasingly interdependent while looking to establish global security and world order through international consensus in a multipolar global society?

Regarding Islam, I do not say that globalization is the cause of Islamic radicalization; an inherent nature in certain tenants of Islam has supported violence and suppression from inception, notwithstanding, globalization has served as a catalyst to activate these radical elements. This is in part evidenced by the upsurge in terrorism and increased radicalization of Islam over the past few decades, which corresponds with the global trend towards world socialization. “

snip

“Globalization has threatened the destruction of Islamic culture and beliefs through modernization. Westernization being viewed as a direct attack upon their civilization has created panic and served as an incendiary to incite many adherents of Islam into action, not only to defend their lands, but to become the dominant power of any coming world order.”

snip

“For as the cultural conflict between the West and Islam intensifies, there is another struggle taking place for the control of resources and the global economy. It was for this purpose the European Union was created to be a competitor; however, “former” communist countries have joined the fray having been empowered by the US dollar, global markets, and a growing control of energy supplies.”

snip

“Now consider a parable: In 1956 Brazilian scientists were attempting to create a new hybrid bee in the hopes of creating improved honey production when African bees were accidentally introduced into the wild in South and North America and began to dominate the domestic honey bee. This new hybrid, known as the “Africanized” or “killer bee,” took many years to establish colonies, as it did, it began to radicalize and take over the hives of domestic bees. The bee is extremely defensive-aggressive, easily agitated by anything deemed foreign, and it produces little honey; thus, it has become unprofitable for the Keeper and a threat to all others.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1840353/posts

It looks to me the hatred Islamists feel toward us and express in the most violent way will only intensify. No need to distinguish between extremists and moderates. When push comes to shove, they’ll side with each other, no matter what the moderates say to assuage our fears. In the eyes of Islam, it is them or us. Sound familiar?

[GostHacked]

They 'hate' us because we've been over there KILLING them.

I think it is pretty simple, no need to bring religion into it.

Hmmmm....

Why, oh why are you guys so afraid of us bringing up religion?

Gee, it's not as if we'd try to convert you!

So everything is that simple eh? Just out of curiousity....how far back are we talking here when you say,

"we've been over there KILLING them?"

Not really afraid to bring Religion into it, it just seems, without religion, there is no real context for hatred to exist. Everyone is fighting for a god of some sort, and are pretty static in their religious views. No compassion for the others beliefs. So when you have no compassion or respect for the religion then it becomes a form of hate for those who do not live and let live. I am not afraid of being converted to any religion. For most of them do not fit my personal beliefs. Like the fact most religions believe in a god. Automatic disqualification in my view. More or less, cannot be converted. I see my self as an outsider of religion because I never grew up knowing a specific religion. So it baffles me, yet I understand the importance to some, the belief in something that cannot be in any way proven tangable.

It was more of a test to see who can actually participate in this thread without the religion being thrown in. I have now seen that it is impossible for most of you to look at things objectively and neutraly without bringing the religion angel. EDIT. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to insult any of you in any way. It just seems impossible for some of you to seperate yourselves from the religion to look at a situation objectively. I know this thread is gonna get heated, and I am prepared for it. I don't hate your religion, I just don't understand it for the most part.

And to answer your first question. How long has the West been interfering in the Middle East?

[kuzadd]

They hate us for the same atavistic reason Hitler hated Jews. Yes, it really is that simple, although for the western mind this is too difficult to grasp, which explains why everyone feels the need to cast about for rational explanations. They hate us because we're not Islamic.

Yah, and you hate them because they are.

which is BTW, totally irrational.

I see you buy into 'divide and conquer' quite nicely.

Do you enjoy the subjugation?

We are trying to have a discussion here. Your comment has nothing to do with the discussion at all.

It's purely a personal attack. It derails the conversation. And it lowers the standard of this forum.

If you've got nothing relevant to add, move aside!

oh yes, my words do have alot to do with the discussion, regardless of what you say.

Scottsa: "They hate us because we're not Islamic."

he played the 'religion' card right off the bat, did you miss it? or gloss over it?

Clearly he hates them because they are that religion, for one reason.

Because they are NOT like us (white christian)

it's not a personal attack

so , since you had nothing to add, but to "attack" my opinion, maybe you should "move aside"?

[kuzadd]

Not really afraid to bring Religion into it, it just seems, without religion, there is no real context for hatred to exist. Everyone is fighting for a god of some sort, and are pretty static in their religious views. No compassion for the others beliefs. So when you have no compassion or respect for the religion then it becomes a form of hate for those who do not live and let live. I am not afraid of being converted to any religion. For most of them do not fit my personal beliefs. Like the fact most religions believe in a god. Automatic disqualification in my view. More or less, cannot be converted. I see my self as an outsider of religion because I never grew up knowing a specific religion. So it baffles me, yet I understand the importance to some, the belief in something that cannot be in any way proven tangable.

It was more of a test to see who can actually participate in this thread without the religion being thrown in. I have now seen that it is impossible for most of you to look at things objectively and neutraly without bringing the religion angel. EDIT. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to insult any of you in any way. It just seems impossible for some of you to seperate yourselves from the religion to look at a situation objectively. I know this thread is gonna get heated, and I am prepared for it. I don't hate your religion, I just don't understand it for the most part.

And to answer your first question. How long has the West been interfering in the Middle East?

This has ZERO to do with religion, unless one is "brainwashed" by religion to think so.

This is pure demonization of a group of people to justify attacking them, that's all there is to it.

"They" don't hate "us"

They are us!

We are them

We are all human beings.

Anyone who plays the relgion card is foolish, plain and simple.

The west wants control of the ME resources,etc., they have to give the people of the west an enemy/boogeyman, to justify there imperial invasions.

That's it in a nutshell, no religion required.

[capricorn]

kuzadd, you're first sentence says it all. Religion is used to brainwash people into action while other another agenda is at play. The west does not use religion to mobilize us to protect ourselves from terrorist attacks. It is radical Islam that uses religion as a springboard to fight us. This is done to multiply the number of radicals who would become martyrs for the cause. It's not a question of playing the religion card, it's a question of which side is using religion to achieve its goal of dominance.

I don't dispute that the west has acted to pilfer the resources of the Middle East and that is regrettable. This is not a modern day occurence. It has been going on for centuries. In fighting terrorist attacks, the west is using the argument that terrorism is a threat to our personal security and to our culture, and must be defeated.

Please, I don't accept the concept that they are us and we are them. Unless one associates oneself with a movement that wants to kill/eliminate/eradicate/wipe out/behead their perceived enemy, i.e. infidels.

[jbg]

Please, I don't accept the concept that they are us and we are them. Unless one associates oneself with a movement that wants to kill/eliminate/eradicate/wipe out/behead their perceived enemy, i.e. infidels.

I'm quite proud to be an "infidel". In fact, draft a fatwa now!!! (link)

[betsy]

They hate us for the same atavistic reason Hitler hated Jews. Yes, it really is that simple, although for the western mind this is too difficult to grasp, which explains why everyone feels the need to cast about for rational explanations. They hate us because we're not Islamic.

Yah, and you hate them because they are.

which is BTW, totally irrational.

I see you buy into 'divide and conquer' quite nicely.

Do you enjoy the subjugation?

We are trying to have a discussion here. Your comment has nothing to do with the discussion at all.

It's purely a personal attack. It derails the conversation. And it lowers the standard of this forum.

If you've got nothing relevant to add, move aside!

oh yes, my words do have alot to do with the discussion, regardless of what you say.

Scottsa: "They hate us because we're not Islamic."

he played the 'religion' card right off the bat, did you miss it? or gloss over it?

Clearly he hates them because they are that religion, for one reason.

Because they are NOT like us (white christian)

it's not a personal attack

so , since you had nothing to add, but to "attack" my opinion, maybe you should "move aside"?

Scott was answering Ghostshack's question, "why do terrorists hate us!

Of course answers will pertain to "them" and "us!"

So Scott mentioned religion! Whether religion is a part of it or not. So what?

Are you here to censor everybody? Are you here to intimidate people from expressing their views? Who gave you this license?

Your response was to launch into a personal attack!

I had given my contribution to this discussion - which I find very interesting, as a matter of fact - that's why I resent your irrelevant and offensive intrusion! You seem bent to turn this particular discussion into one of many same-old threads of bigotry against Muslims - which is quite boring already!

Perhaps Greg should be invited to come to this particular thread....and let him be the one to decide!

[betsy]

Not really afraid to bring Religion into it, it just seems, without religion, there is no real context for hatred to exist. Everyone is fighting for a god of some sort, and are pretty static in their religious views. No compassion for the others beliefs. So when you have no compassion or respect for the religion then it becomes a form of hate for those who do not live and let live.

So what does this have to do with your topic's question? I'm afraid I'm sort of confused here.

Actually your statement is somehow agreeing that it is religion - Islamic in this case that's at the root of the problem of hatred, since they (terrorists) are fighting for their god and that they feel we have no respect for their religion?

I am not afraid of being converted to any religion. For most of them do not fit my personal beliefs. Like the fact most religions believe in a god. Automatic disqualification in my view. More or less, cannot be converted. I see my self as an outsider of religion because I never grew up knowing a specific religion. So it baffles me, yet I understand the importance to some, the belief in something that cannot be in any way proven tangable.

That was stated in jest, Ghostshack. I know you are not afraid of religion. I know you will not be converted.

Not without a fight anyway.

Now, that was a joke again.

It was more of a test to see who can actually participate in this thread without the religion being thrown in. I have now seen that it is impossible for most of you to look at things objectively and neutraly without bringing the religion angel. EDIT. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to insult any of you in any way. It just seems impossible for some of you to seperate yourselves from the religion to look at a situation objectively. I know this thread is gonna get heated, and I am prepared for it. I don't hate your religion, I just don't understand it for the most part.

No, I don't feel insulted by your statement.

So, this topic was a test? It wasn't fairly done though. You should've chosen a different topic....or should've asked a different question.

You implied to want to understand about their hatred for us. Which is a very legitimate question - and like you said, how come it was never raised so far in any discussion - for indeed, it makes a very good topic for discussion.

Too bad, this quite refreshing topic got wasted - since obviously it was not really the discussion you were aiming for. You got me hooked, I guess.

The very subject of your test indeed makes it impossible not to include religion, for religion is actually at the root of this problem. It always rears its head at every turn....no matter how we try to look at it from a different angle. Not even YOU and KUZADD could keep religion out of it even though you're both trying hard. Like a bad penny, it keeps popping up!

Anyway, re-check the article I've posted so maybe you'll see what I mean. It just simply can't be eliminated - that is if you truly want an objective discussion.

As for being objective, your purpose for this thread was not concieved in an objective way.

So how can we answer and discuss your specific question objectively if we omit a major factor?

As for neutrality, I'd say it is you who seems unable to look at things in a neutral way. Being able to state facts and opinions freely without restraint in a discussion that is supposedly looking for explanations is only fair. Your topic is in a "fact-finding" mission, or in a quest for understanding.

Being able to look at all facts and opinions presented - whether they be opposed to your own views - is being neutral. Restricting or blocking important facts, is not.

[betsy]

If we eliminate religion from the discussion (which is hard but I'll try not to mention it), here is my take on it:

Why do they hate us?

Why do they hate freedom?

IMO, it all boils down to.....F E A R and E N V Y.

"He (Bin Laden) and his sympathizers want to eliminate Western influence."

Why do they want to eliminate western influence? Because of its i n f l u e n c e!

For instance, he says Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini, in calling the U.S. the "Great Satan," was being consistent with the Koranic depiction of Satan not as an "imperialist" or "exploiter" but as a seducer, "the insidious tempter who whispers in the hearts of men."{17} – Qtub

And Qtub had outlined this "influence" as a S E D U C E R, "the insidious tempter who whispers in the hearts of men."

The dictator (substituting the word ISLAM) wants to keep control over his subjects. To accept his decree as almighty law. He fears the loss of control over his people - for freedom and democracy is tempting to a people who had known only oppression. WE ARE WAVING THIS TEMPTATION TO THEIR NOSES SIMPLY BY THE WAY WE LIVE - and global access to the internet only makes it so easy.

With this mindset, the Western world and the United States as superpower become to many Muslims the infidel invaders, imperialist bullies who desecrate Islamic states by force. European colonialism, Western imperialism and U. S. policies are frequent Muslim complaints.

This is all too convenient. But take note of the word, "superpower." What dictator wouldn't want to have this superpower?

Saudi oil wealth funded Wahhabi propagation of their views at home and abroad.{27} Wahhabism affected both Usama bin Ladin and the Taliban.{28}

Wahhabism’s pervasive influence troubles Princeton’s Lewis. Imagine, he says, that the Ku Klux Klan or a similar group took control of Texas and its oil and could widely propagate its version of "Christianity" through heavily endowed schools and colleges.{29}

This is where indoctrination and brain-washing comes in.

"Almost the entire Muslim world is affected by poverty. . . ."{34} Georgetown’s John Esposito sees "weak economies, illiteracy, and high unemployment"{35} in many Muslim nations. Relative deprivation can be psychologically debilitating. If you are poor, some theories argue, and you see others more prosperous, you may feel inferior, trapped or depressed.

Reports from the United Nations and the World Bank note that Arab nations fall far behind the West in "job creation, education, technology, and productivity."{36} (There are, of course, exceptions.) When global media bring pictures of lavish Western life, frustration burns and some extremists lash out. One Egyptian playwright described these extremists as "pathologically jealous." He said, "They feel like dwarfs, which is why they search for towers and all those who tower mightily."{37}

Feelings of rejection play a part. Many Western societies have been slow to accept Muslims. The father of shoe bomber Richard Reid said of his son, "He was born here in Britain, like I was. It was distressing to be told things like ‘Go home, nigger.’"{38}

New York Times foreign affairs columnist Thomas Friedman speaks of a "poverty of dignity" affecting even privileged Muslims. Belief in Islam’s superiority contrasted with economic and military disparity in the context of a repressive regime can engender feelings of humiliation, prompting vengeance against the perceived cause.{39}"

And I think this speaks for itself.

So here you go, in a nutshell....fear and envy.

They are threatened by our superior society! They fear us because we are a threat to their control. They have absolute control over their people. They'll lose that control if their people got a whiff of freedom or democracy.

They know that we are vastly superior to them! That their own people do not want to be controlled, that's why they're leaving in droves - to come over to us. They know they cannot keep that grip while the lure of freedom is only getting much stronger.

[kuzadd]

kuzadd, you're first sentence says it all. Religion is used to brainwash people into action while other another agenda is at play. The west does not use religion to mobilize us to protect ourselves from terrorist attacks. It is radical Islam that uses religion as a springboard to fight us. This is done to multiply the number of radicals who would become martyrs for the cause. It's not a question of playing the religion card, it's a question of which side is using religion to achieve its goal of dominance.

I don't dispute that the west has acted to pilfer the resources of the Middle East and that is regrettable. This is not a modern day occurence. It has been going on for centuries. In fighting terrorist attacks, the west is using the argument that terrorism is a threat to our personal security and to our culture, and must be defeated.

Please, I don't accept the concept that they are us and we are them. Unless one associates oneself with a movement that wants to kill/eliminate/eradicate/wipe out/behead their perceived enemy, i.e. infidels.

capricorn:

religion is used in the west to brainwash, as equally as it is in the ME.

"I don't dispute that the west has acted to pilfer the resources of the Middle East and that is regrettable. This is not a modern day occurence. It has been going on for centuries. "

I am glad you didn't dispute that basic fact (west pilfering resources) and no it certainly is not a modern day occurence. But how and why do you think this has gone on for so long? How do you think the general population has gone along with the wars for conquest, empire, resources etc., when largely it is NOT in the interest of the general population???

It's the general poulation's kids that die, and fight, we don't get rich from it, everything is sold back to us at a premium, (see recent price of gas) our taxes support the war machines, that we pay for, when we would rather as a populace see the money better spent. etc., etc.,

"In fighting terrorist attacks, the west is using the argument that terrorism is a threat to our personal security and to our culture, and must be defeated."

Terrorism will never be defeated, it's always been around and always will be around, it will never be defeated. Terrorism's history is as old as mankind .To believe otherwise is to be duped, sorry, but that's the way it is.

Yes, the west is using FEAR, to get the population to go along, with it's imperial adventure.

When one gives over one's own security to it's government, to "keep us safe" we are in big trouble, big, big trouble. For governments have been the biggest killers of their own populace. see: Democide

Ask yourself this questions: If not for the oil, would the west ever have meddled in the ME???

If not for oil in the ME, do you think, everytime a progressive, democratically elected government was chosen by the people of the ME, the West, would have gone in and aided in the overthrow of that government?

When the Brit Empire dominated the ME, they feared the people of the ME would get it together and control their own oil, so they continually demonized them at home, conquered/controlled them in the ME , generally applied the strategy of divide and conquer, toward the populace, in order to keep them subjugated. As the US is doing now.

[scribblet]

Your response was to launch into a personal attack!

I had given my contribution to this discussion - which I find very interesting, as a matter of fact - that's why I resent your irrelevant and offensive intrusion! You seem bent to turn this particular discussion into one of many same-old threads of bigotry against Muslims - which is quite boring already!

Perhaps Greg should be invited to come to this particular thread....and let him be the one to decide!

Too bad there aren't more moderators.

The radicals at least have a real hatred for the west, not always explicitly stated, although one reason we know is the support given to Israel . Democracy and the rise of social progress are not always seen as good things by the radical Islamists, they see us (west) as decadent and immoral based on their faith and social perceptions

You can’t take the religion out of the politics as Islamism and Sharia Law are the State power in some countries. It may take a variety of forms but the religion is their social and political control of the people. In Islam, the mullahs have more status and in many cases their word is the authority.

For many including OBL, the answer is religion as to him and his followers this is a holy war between Islam and the Western world, not all of course, but to too many.

[kuzadd]

If we eliminate religion from the discussion (which is hard but I'll try not to mention it), here is my take on it:

Why do they hate us?

Why do they hate freedom?

IMO, it all boils down to.....F E A R and E N V Y.

[

Fear?

it seems the 'west' is more full of fear.

Envy?

well that would have to imply, something to be envious of?

what would that be?

our freedom?

well we have less and less of that all the time, spying, wiretapping, no-fly lists, cameras everywhere to take our pictures, in Britian that includes people to shout at you.

our 'moral superiority'? hilarious

our 'christian ways'? more hilarity

well I am not getting the envy......................

[kuzadd]

Too bad there aren't more moderators.

The radicals at least have a real hatred for the west, not always explicitly stated, although one reason we know is the support given to Israel . Democracy and the rise of social progress are not always seen as good things by the radical Islamists, they see us (west) as decadent and immoral based on their faith and social perceptions

You can’t take the religion out of the politics as Islamism and Sharia Law are the State power in some countries. It may take a variety of forms but the religion is their social and political control of the people. In Islam, the mullahs have more status and in many cases their word is the authority.

For many including OBL, the answer is religion as to him and his followers this is a holy war between Islam and the Western world, not all of course, but to too many.

OBL , is religious, like donuts are low-cal!

[sharkman]

If we eliminate religion from the discussion (which is hard but I'll try not to mention it), here is my take on it:

Why do they hate us?

Why do they hate freedom?

IMO, it all boils down to.....F E A R and E N V Y.

[

Fear?

it seems the 'west' is more full of fear.

Envy?

well that would have to imply, something to be envious of?

what would that be?

our freedom?

well we have less and less of that all the time, spying, wiretapping, no-fly lists, cameras everywhere to take our pictures, in Britian that includes people to shout at you.

our 'moral superiority'? hilarious

our 'christian ways'? more hilarity

well I am not getting the envy......................

Glad to see you're getting a few yucks. Man, it's kind of simple. They are envious of our wealth and power.