Racism in Lethbridge Causes National Boycott of Tim Horton's

[Figleaf]

All of my anger towards the FN are because of their privledged status.

How much anger do you have? Enough to go out and rape and kill a native girl? 'Cause that seems to be part of the 'privileged status' the seem to have. That and the substandard housing, lack of medical care, legacy of being ripped of by officials, racist slurs, and residential schools. Yep, lots of 'privileges'.

Bullshit. This the past, ...

NOT bullshit, not the past. Your ignorance or denials notwithstanding, it's today.

For example, housing:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=native...=cr%3DcountryCA

For example, racial slurs:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=9110

For example, ripped off by officials (see paragraph about how the gov. got hold of Ipperwash lands):

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Features/2007/...214770-sun.html

And while the residential schools are no more, the settlements are still not completed.

Lots of white people have substandard housing...

So? Does that make it right?

It's a big load of shit to point the past.

Yeah sure, unless the past is still relevant, which in this matter it is.

How? By going back to Europe?

Again, you can be pragmatic and live in today...

It was a pragmatic question. You suggested that if native people abandoned their complaints then they would be 'left alone'. So I ask: How? FYI, how something will be done is generally considered a very practical question, in the real world.

...you can be a blind ideologue dedicated to reliving the past every waking minute. Apparently you've chosen the later.

Ad hominem drivel.

There is no justification to base any additional rights and privledges based on DNA, ever. That's the bottom line here.

If your great uncle left a few million to 'his descendants', would you say the same thing and share it with me?

[White Doors]

"White man guilt" is the background motivator behind alot of bad policy today.

YES. But educating the white man to what has happened and still is happening is a better policy, Your key word is motivator. Well' where is the motivation for the white man today to make amends? All I see him doing is still running around eating up everything in his path. As far as this boycot goes don't we as a canadian citizen have the right to protest in a peaceful manner as well, according to the Constitution Act of Canada we reserve that right.

Motivator IS a key word. Where is the motivation for the FN's to help themselves and to get off the proverbial government teet? There is a problem with FN's today, it can't all not be ANY of their fault. Where are the courageous FN leaders willing to do some naval gazing?

I don't see them. It's always someone else's fault - moreso that not - the white man's. I don't buy it and alot of other people are thinking the same way.

[stignasty]

Motivator IS a key word. Where is the motivation for the FN's to help themselves and to get off the proverbial government teet? There is a problem with FN's today, it can't all not be ANY of their fault. Where are the courageous FN leaders willing to do some naval gazing?

I don't see them.

Have you made an effort to look? Here are a couple of examples from the Blood tribe, just outside Lethbridge.

With a booming economy in Alberta and a great demand for workers in all areas of the workforce, the latest development by the Blood Tribe to build a Trades and Technology Training Centre in the Community of Levern should provide more employment opportunities for the members of the Tribe.

http://www.bloodtribe.org/news/May.pdf

The leadership of the Blood Tribe realizes that existing support services for Income Support clients needs to be extended into assisting clients to find meaningful employment. Income support should be a last resort and treated as a temporary measure. More emphasis needs to be placed on empowering clients to become self sufficient and therefore improve the social conditions on the Blood Reserve as a whole.

http://www.bloodtribe.org/news/Apr.pdf

[FNandPROUD]

If natives were treated equally and not receive any special "status" from the govt then this "percieved" racism would end.

No it wouldn't. People will always make excuses to dislike other people based on the colour of their skin, the amount of money they make, the gender they choose to sleep with, and so on. You have to rationalise it because deep down inside you know it's wrong. Child-molesters, thieves, murderers all do the same thing.

I disagree with you BC Chick. All of my anger towards the FN are because of their privledged status. If they had equal rights and privledges under the law as I had, I simply would disregard their racial status. It's not productive to be racist.

But anger at FN isn't racist in a country like Canada, it's a political process. They are a bloc, a movement, a party even in a way. They are generally a unianimous protest group.

And for that, it creates anger (justifiable) towards them. If they received nothing special, I'm sure most people could care less and would just 'leave them alone'.

It is hilarious to see that you think we have privileged status. Yes....my mom was so privileged to get torn out of her parents arms, go to residential school, be forced to speak a language that was not her own, to not be allowed to speak to her brothers, to be beaten if she were caught speaking to them. She was so privileged to endure what she endured.

Would you consider your child privileged if she was ripped out of your home, shipped to the other side of the province and you were not permitted to phone or visit?

Think before you speak. And in case you really are that dim.....we do not get free homes, we do not get free cars and we do not get free education. I have a mountain of student loans like many other races of people to attest to that!

[stignasty]

Think before you speak. And in case you really are that dim.....we do not get free homes, we do not get free cars and we do not get free education. I have a mountain of student loans like many other races of people to attest to that!

Welcome to the boards. Here's another thread that you might be interested in that demonstrates similar opinions: We pay while Indians live in luxury, Tsuu Tina stays in hotels while their squatting residence repaired

[FNandPROUD]

Welcome to the boards. Here's another thread that you might be interested in that demonstrates similar opinions: We pay while Indians live in luxury, Tsuu Tina stays in hotels while their squatting residence repaired

Thank you for the welcome, after reading I knew I had to give my opinion as well. A lot of good replies here but a few made by people that are just not aware and need to gain knowledge on a few things.

[geoffrey]

It is hilarious to see that you think we have privileged status. Yes....my mom was so privileged to get torn out of her parents arms, go to residential school, be forced to speak a language that was not her own, to not be allowed to speak to her brothers, to be beaten if she were caught speaking to them. She was so privileged to endure what she endured.

Would you consider your child privileged if she was ripped out of your home, shipped to the other side of the province and you were not permitted to phone or visit?

That's unfortunate, but I had no hand in that. Why should I pay the price?? Because I'm the same colour as the people that did that to your mom? I owe you nothing for your mom's suffering.

Think before you speak. And in case you really are that dim.....we do not get free homes, we do not get free cars and we do not get free education. I have a mountain of student loans like many other races of people to attest to that!

You pay no taxes on business transactions on reservation, or income earnered on reservation, you have unlimited free access to health care (the rest of us pay these premium things). Your legally allowed to occupy private property without consequence (I wonder how long I'd go before being arrested parking my van on a CN rail line in protest).

Many scholarships say 'for Indians only.' I can't imagine what would happen if I released the "Geoff scholarship for White Males"... There is a clear double standard in that regard.

The government currently spends $298m a year just on Indians in post secondary. Link here: http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ps/edu/ense_e.html

On the houses thing:

"First Nations manage the program. INAC’s funding helps First Nations fund to build and renovate houses, as well as contributing towards costs like maintenance, insurance, planning and portfolio management. INAC does not cover the full cost of housing and First Nations and their residents must secure other sources of funds." - http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ps/hsg/cih/hs/fnh_e.html

I'd love to get a massive chunk of cash towards my new house. Good that they at least have to secure some of their own money... doesn't change the fact that the government bails them out.

Municipalities levy property taxes to fund things like sewers, water and roads. Indian Reserves get all this infrastructure built for free from the Federal government... they pay very little for their existence, if anything.

The bottom line of my position is very non-racist. End it all today. Have all Canadians equal before the law. Unfortunately that's not possible with the current 'blame ourselves for everything' mentality.

Over $15,000 per Indian is spent through INAC annually. That average family of 4 Indians is getting about $60,000 in direct and indirect aid... there is absolutely no reason to see what we do on the reservations.

Corruption in band councils is a huge problem. The cycle of poverty and substance abuse is another. Never the less, the Federal government needs to stop throwing money at the problem and start allowing more easy integration of Indians into our society, until we no longer feel we have to draw racial lines on government benefits and legal abilities.

[Figleaf]

That's unfortunate, but I had no hand in that. Why should I pay the price?? Because I'm the same colour as the people that did that to your mom? I owe you nothing for your mom's suffering.

What facile junk. You are not being asked to pay for it. The state you are in is responsible for it. If you feel hard done by when the state taxes you to pay for its mistakes it's really too bad, but that doesn't absolve the state of its responsibilities.

The bottom line of my position is very non-racist. End it all today.

Your suggestion is fundamentally unfair. The entitlements of native people are the result of agreements that created obligations. Your proposal to unilaterally terminate such obligation is no different, ethically speaking, than an insurance company that refuses to honor its policies, for example.

[Drea]

I should change my handle to "white and proud". But of course THAT would be racist wouldn't it? Pfffffft.

You may be a straight up kinda guy FNPROUD -- so are some of the people I know. Some of them don't expect free stuff for life. Some work, some open their own businesses.

Once every single native is off reserve and paying taxes then we will have equality.

My roommate was going to university to become a lawyer -- paid by the band (Indian Affairs, the federal govt, the taxpayers). She was cute and intelligent but Nooooooo -- she chooses to get messed up every night. She also stole my rings and set my house on fire.

Lousy wench -- she's probably on the streets in Vancouver. Serves her right. She had the world on a string but decided to fuck up her life instead.

[Figleaf]

Lousy wench -- she's probably on the streets in Vancouver. Serves her right. She had the world on a string but decided to fuck up her life instead.

Naturally. Who wouldn't choose to live on the streets rather that be comfortable and employed?

What, you wouldn't make that choice? Well then, I wonder why she did ... must be inferior genetics in your book, I suppose.

[FNandPROUD]

Corruption in band councils is a huge problem. The cycle of poverty and substance abuse is another. Never the less, the Federal government needs to stop throwing money at the problem and start allowing more easy integration of Indians into our society, until we no longer feel we have to draw racial lines on government benefits and legal abilities.

I can't reply to all of the inaccurate information you seem to think you are so knowledgable on.

I am amazed that you have visited all the FIRST NATIONS BANDS in Canada to know that there is so much corruption. See, you seem to think the Society is YOURS.

I would like to see you go through some hardships, or to witness your family and friends go through it. To hear what your ancestors before you went through.

If you didn't see things in the sense of the color of someone's skin, then you wouldn't even be making half the comments you are making.

Either you are a tiny itty bitty man wanting to prove something, or an old man with too much time on his hand, or an umemployed person. Either way, get some knowledge, make some friends.

And if you want to do a scholorship in your name with criteria, you are most welcome to. There are many out there that say "First Nations or East Indian or Portuguese preference".

[FNandPROUD]

I should change my handle to "white and proud". But of course THAT would be racist wouldn't it? Pfffffft.

You may be a straight up kinda guy FNPROUD -- so are some of the people I know. Some of them don't expect free stuff for life. Some work, some open their own businesses.

Once every single native is off reserve and paying taxes then we will have equality.

My roommate was going to university to become a lawyer -- paid by the band (Indian Affairs, the federal govt, the taxpayers). She was cute and intelligent but Nooooooo -- she chooses to get messed up every night. She also stole my rings and set my house on fire.

Lousy wench -- she's probably on the streets in Vancouver. Serves her right. She had the world on a string but decided to fuck up her life instead.

Change your name, it's your right. I'm not sure why it sets you off that I am proud to be first nations. Being cute and intelligent has nothing to do with why she was at university. Thats just your way to belittle her. Did you catch her stealing your rings? Or are you assuming it?

Did you ever stop to wonder why she drank? Do you care? NO, I highly doubt it beacuse you do not seem like a straight up kinda person (since I don't know if you're male of female...I won't ASSUME).

Yes and would you appreciate me saying that it serves your right to get struck by lightening? Get hit by a car, etc etc? Nooo....keep in mind that we are all someone's daughter/son. Do any of you have any connection to your spirit??? Have some compassion in life. Get over your pettiness.

How on earth are our children suppose to live with hatred and bitterness like what you people are showing? I was taught to respect all, even when they don't show respect to me. Did your parents not teach you manners and respect?

[betsy]

Did you ever stop to wonder why she drank?

How on earth are our children suppose to live with hatred and bitterness like what you people are showing? I was taught to respect all, even when they don't show respect to me. Did your parents not teach you manners and respect?

Anyone who grew up being told and always reminded by their elders that the whole nation think they are good-for-nothing, and that they are hated, and belittled and will always be descriminated...that their future is so bleak....making them feel defeated before they had even begun....having to carry and deal with those heavy chips on their shoulders... is enough to drive anyone to drink.....and to get into drugs....and to commit suicide!

Ever wonder why suicide is such a problem among your youth?

[stignasty]

Anyone who grew up being told and always reminded by their elders that the whole nation think they are good-for-nothing, and that they are hated, and belittled and will always be descriminated...that their future is so bleak....making them feel defeated before they had even begun....having to carry and deal with those heavy chips on their shoulders... is enough to drive anyone to drink.....and to get into drugs....and to commit suicide!

Ever wonder why suicide is such a problem among your youth?

Do you have any reference to back up your statement that native elders do any of the above or is this just more "common knowledge?"

[FNandPROUD]

Anyone who grew up being told and always reminded by their elders that the whole nation think they are good-for-nothing, and that they are hated, and belittled and will always be descriminated...that their future is so bleak....making them feel defeated before they had even begun....having to carry and deal with those heavy chips on their shoulders... is enough to drive anyone to drink.....and to get into drugs....and to commit suicide!

Ever wonder why suicide is such a problem among your youth?

Do you have any reference to back up your statement that native elders do any of the above or is this just more "common knowledge?"

I know for myself, I realize the issues our elders carry with them, generations of residential school survivors, sexual abuse survivors. My Mother and Grandmother went to residential school.

This is why so many turned to drinking to kill the pain. Even through this, I have always been told and supported that I can do better, that I can make a difference. Not once have I ever been told my someone in my family or my first nations community that I was hated or that my future was bleak. I do know that hateful words spill out when someone is drinking, so I can imagine in some families that this was the case.

[BC_chick]

The comments on this board are quite nauseating.

[BC_chick]

Change your name, it's your right. I'm not sure why it sets you off that I am proud to be first nations. Being cute and intelligent has nothing to do with why she was at university. Thats just your way to belittle her. Did you catch her stealing your rings? Or are you assuming it?

Did you ever stop to wonder why she drank? Do you care? NO, I highly doubt it beacuse you do not seem like a straight up kinda person (since I don't know if you're male of female...I won't ASSUME).

Yes and would you appreciate me saying that it serves your right to get struck by lightening? Get hit by a car, etc etc? Nooo....keep in mind that we are all someone's daughter/son. Do any of you have any connection to your spirit??? Have some compassion in life. Get over your pettiness.

How on earth are our children suppose to live with hatred and bitterness like what you people are showing? I was taught to respect all, even when they don't show respect to me. Did your parents not teach you manners and respect?

Good Lord, imagine if her roomate had been a white party girl who stole. She'd have to start hating all whites. LOL

But no, that's right, white women college kids never drink, drop out, or steal, right Drea?

[stignasty]

I know for myself, I realize the issues our elders carry with them, generations of residential school survivors, sexual abuse survivors. My Mother and Grandmother went to residential school.

This is why so many turned to drinking to kill the pain. Even through this, I have always been told and supported that I can do better, that I can make a difference. Not once have I ever been told my someone in my family or my first nations community that I was hated or that my future was bleak. I do know that hateful words spill out when someone is drinking, so I can imagine in some families that this was the case.

My experience with the Blackfoot people in Alberta is that the elders are revered and their wisdom is respected. When I have heard elders speak it is always positive. When it isn't affirming their traditions, it is a message of hard work to gain an education. I don't know where betsy is getting her information, but I have never seen anything like she describes.

[geoffrey]

But no, that's right, white women college kids never drink, drop out, or steal, right Drea?

College would only be half the fun if they didn't.

[betsy]

Anyone who grew up being told and always reminded by their elders that the whole nation think they are good-for-nothing, and that they are hated, and belittled and will always be descriminated...that their future is so bleak....making them feel defeated before they had even begun....having to carry and deal with those heavy chips on their shoulders... is enough to drive anyone to drink.....and to get into drugs....and to commit suicide!

Ever wonder why suicide is such a problem among your youth?

Do you have any reference to back up your statement that native elders do any of the above or is this just more "common knowledge?"

I know for myself, I realize the issues our elders carry with them, generations of residential school survivors, sexual abuse survivors. My Mother and Grandmother went to residential school.

This is why so many turned to drinking to kill the pain. Even through this, I have always been told and supported that I can do better, that I can make a difference. Not once have I ever been told my someone in my family or my first nations community that I was hated or that my future was bleak. I do know that hateful words spill out when someone is drinking, so I can imagine in some families that this was the case.

Then it must be the radical activists! The ones who don't want to listen to some level-headed elders!

See? It's automatic...the way that "residential school" always come up from you guys like a talisman you automatically wield! YOU have obviously been indoctrinated....only you don't realize it.

Well those residential schools were a big mistake...what started with good intentions had gone awry for some, ending up an atrocity for some! And the government had admitted to that.

So when you guys keep bringing up the past ...what do you hope to achieve?

I've read an article written by a woman FN activist.......who was opposed to what you're spouting here.

She blames the elders for what's happening, citing the "indoctrination" of youth about their "hopelessness"......blaming the welfare system that keeps the FN rotting in such helplessness....and the blatant corruptions of your elders, which the previous government knows but had decided instead to let alone, turning a blind eye!

Your FN system is very oppressive to your women! Your women cannot own land. In cases of FN divorce, your women gets nothing! Maybe that's why that poor young woman Drea talks about ended up with the bottle. What good is an education if she knows that back in the bosom of her community, she's nothing!

Having worked in a bar, I've seen quite a few young native women pretty sauced up. And then, your youth!

Something about your system are driving your folks to despair....and it ain't coming from us!

edited: added a few

[betsy]

I know for myself, I realize the issues our elders carry with them, generations of residential school survivors, sexual abuse survivors. My Mother and Grandmother went to residential school.

This is why so many turned to drinking to kill the pain.

"REDEFINING ABUSE"

by Terry O'Neill

In 1986, the Sechelt Indian Band made history when it became the first Canadian tribe to successfully negotiate with Ottawa to achieve self-government. The landmark Sechelt Indian Band Self-Government Act not only freed the band from the constraints of the Indian Act, it set the standard for future native self-government treaties. And the man who led Sechelt to its monumentalachievement, then chief Stan Dixon, knew he had some people to thank - the staff at the Sechelt Residential School.

Not long after the treaty was signed, Dixon wrote a letter to one of his former teachers, a Roman Catholic nun, thanking her for the crucial and beneficial role she and her colleagues had played in his education and crediting her directly for the subsequent success he and his band enjoyed.

Dixon is what CBC reporters today would call one of the "survivors" of the residential school system - as if they had been concentration camps.

In his letter, recounting his and his brother's experiences, Dixon wrote: "the residential school system taught us discipline and consistency early. Discipline to ethical responsibility with honour remains with me to this day and as long as I live on this earth....I do not regret growing up in the residential school because I trusted my caretakers as much as I love my mother, my grandfather, and all my extended family and relations in the Sechelt community."

Of the 86,000 Indians today who attended residential schools, only 13,600 - about 15 per cent - have filed claims with Ottawa seeking compensation for sexual and physical abuse.

The AFN, which speaks on behalf of more than 630 aboriginal communities in Canada, maintains that any child who attended one of the Indian residential schools was, by definition, abused.

Boarding children at the schools, away from their parents, constitutes emotional abuse, for instance. Preventing a child from speaking his indigenous language would be considered a form of cultural abuse. In making the commitment to work on a "just and fair" resolution for all residential school attendees, the Liberal government has conceded to the AFN's definition of abuse.

Former Supreme Court justice Frank Iacobucci will lead the team charged with hammering out the details of the compensation, but the feds have already agreed, "the main element of a broad reconciliation package will be a payment to former students along the lines referred to in [an earlier] AFN report." That report calls for a $10,000 payment to all former students, plus $3,000 for each year they attended. If these benchmarks stick, the total bill to taxpayers could be more than $4 billion. The payments would not stop sex - and physical-abuse litigants from pressing for additional damages.

But even natives who say they were not abused, and who had positive experience at residential schools, insist their compensation package is justified.

Excerpts from

Western Standard

Aug 8, 2005

[betsy]

Fighting the native patriarchy

Andrea Mrozek, Western Standard

Published: Wednesday, January 11, 2006

Leona Freed's ex-husband physically abused her. But she had three children and stayed with him for about five years before walking out. For many women, finally leaving the abuse marks a new beginning: Assets in family law court are split 50-50, and a judge makes the call on support issues. That wasn't the case for Freed; leaving her ex only sparked bigger problems. Family law didn't apply in Freed's case, and still doesn't for many other women like her, because of where the abuse took place -- on a native reserve called Hollow Water, a couple of hours north of Winnipeg.

Provincial and territorial family laws regarding matrimonial property rights don't hold on native reserves. When the band forbade Freed from taking her children with her when she left (her husband's mother was a band councillor), Freed had to work her way through the courts off-reserve for nine months to win her kids back. The experience heightened her native activism -- though not the sort you're likely to see on the evening news.

That's because Freed isn't fighting for more money for natives, but rather for the basic freedoms the rest of Canadians take for granted: property rights, accountable governance and women's equality.

When she's not at her day job as an aide in a Portage la Prairie, Man., seniors' home, Freed is working for the First Nations Accountability Coalition of Manitoba, which she started out of her home in 1995, and now has 5,000 native and Metis members across Canada. But Freed is ready to give up. The system, she senses, favours those Indian groups that play by Ottawa's rules -- selling out natives as second-class citizens, in exchange for billions in federal handouts.

Other native groups rely on taxpayer money to fund their lobbying efforts. But all of Freed's presentations, travel, lobbying and reports are done without government help. (Freed admits she once accepted a $65,000 grant from the Ministry of Indian Affairs to fund a campaign against fraud in band council elections, but is ashamed of it, and says she would never do it again.)

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation reports that funding for native programs has doubled in just over a decade, from $3.3-billion to $6.6-billion in 2002 -- with most of the money going to bands. In the wake of the November public-relations fiasco caused by the water crisis at Ontario's Kashechewan reserve, and with an election in the offing, the federal Liberals rushed through yet more native funding promises.

But while aboriginal groups rake it in, the situation for the average native remains bleak, especially for women. Reserves often operate on a patriarchal system. Without equal rights, women become trapped in miserable marriages, knowing that leaving their husbands typically means cutting off their financial support. Leaving the reserve means abandoning all their property and, frequently, their children.

More………..

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/is...19559b6474e&p=1

[Drea]

I grew up on a ranch in the Cariboo.

I grew up going to school and socializing with natives, many were close friends. My best friend was half native... she still is.

And I know the roommate stole them (of course it could have been one of her "boyfriends" as there was a different pair of cowboy boots at the door every night...) but I am pretty friggin' sure she pawned them to buy drugs. I certainly didn't friggin' lose them as they sat in my jewelry box...

One day I come home (I was 23 and naive about drugs) and she is sitting in her room freaking out that there were ants crawling all over her. There were no ants -- she was on something.... so I called 911 but they wouldn't take her to the hospital because she was coherent enough to refuse treatment.

Little while goes by... I spend the night at my boyfriend's place and come home to a little duplex full of smoke damage. In her drunken/drugged stupor (another one) she had thrown an ashtray in the garbage and gone to bed.

Back when I was a kid I knew this really nice blind native girl -- I used to help her getting on and off the bus... well one day after we'd all been in highschool a couple of years I see her and she has no arms! Apparently someone (her *uncles*) had gotten her drunk and she crawled onto the traintracks and was run over by the train. Poor girl -- bastard uncles.

Five years ago my sister took in a foster kid. A native girl who had been raised (along with her brother) by a very religious German couple. She had the best education, the best clothes and she was loved. But she no longer wanted to live by her adopted parents' rules so she went to the govt and they got her into foster care where she ended up at my sister's. One day my sister looks through her backpack (illegal for the foster parent to do btw) and found crack cocaine and a handgun!

She is 22 now and can't hold a job and routinely threatens my sister's youngest daughter (the only one not yet out of school).

Once again a kid with the world on a string who decided it's more fun to drink and drug than to work...

I probably have more examples but these ones stand out...

If you folks don't like to hear the truth it is not my problem. If anything in the native community is ever going to get fixed people need to stop glossing it over and saying "Oh pooor babies have been downtrodden for so long that it's in their genetics now!"

Pffffft.

[stignasty]

If anything in the native community is ever going to get fixed people need to stop glossing it over and saying "Oh pooor babies have been downtrodden for so long that it's in their genetics now!"

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that there are problems that are symptoms of larger issues. Those problem will not be addressed by simply cutting funding and programs. It's true, terrible things happen on reserves. There is a pile of drug abuse and violence. What is the solution? Well for you and others on this board it's simple, abandon them.

Will the problems go away if we cut off funding? I'm saying that by having funding we can turn the situation around. I'm saying that these people are not naturally drug addicts and thieves. I'm saying that we as a society should do more to help these people to get on their feet now so they won't need support in the future. Should the system be changed? I think it should. But I don't think it should be a "sink or swim" proposition.

I grew up going to school and socializing with natives, many were close friends. My best friend was half native... she still is. . .

And I know the roommate stole them (of course it could have been one of her "boyfriends" as there was a different pair of cowboy boots at the door every night...) but I am pretty friggin' sure she pawned them to buy drugs. I certainly didn't friggin' lose them as they sat in my jewelry box...

I'm sorry that someone from an identifiable minority group may have stolen some friggin' things from you. While you should be upset with that person, you instead have blamed an entire ethnic group. Despite your "I have native friends" comment, it's you that is putting down an entire group based on genetics.

My stand is, and has been that there are some bad apples, but that we shouldn't label an entire group based on those few (remember that this thread was about a sign categorizing "drunken Indians"). The root causes of these problems is not genetics, it is in the systems that we have forced them to live under.

Oooga booga.

Pffffft.

Thank you for your intelligent and mature discourse.

[Figleaf]

"White man guilt" is the background motivator behind alot of bad policy today.

Yeah, it almost beats 'white man self-justification'.