10 Things Christians and Atheists Can and Must Agree On....

[M.Dancer]

Atheism is a just another type of religious belief system. Fundamentalist atheists are as dogmatic as any radical christian or Muslim. Mao and Stalin singled out people who practiced traditional religions in their purges because they were a threat their atheistic ideology.

Dancer, ignorance is bliss, isn't it? Atheists just can't realize that they worship at a shrine just like all of the good religious folk.

Don't mistake me, I don't believe atheism is a belief. It's what replaces theism that is a belief.It might be positivism, existentialism....communism, rationalism, fat headed egotism.....

It takes mountains of faith to be a communist.........

[newbie]

Atheists just can't realize that they worship at a shrine just like all of the good religious folk.

Who are they worshipping?

[Figleaf]

Atheism is a just another type of religious belief system.

Seriously, why on earth do you say that sort of crap?

Atheism has NO GOD in it. That makes it fundamentally, axiomatically, and by definition NOT religious.

Fundamentalist atheists are as dogmatic as any radical christian or Muslim. Mao and Stalin singled out people who practiced traditional religions in their purges because they were a threat their atheistic ideology.

Their views were extremist, yes, but NOT religious.

[M.Dancer]

Strawman? Really?

Epileptic hallucinations are not a dysfunction of the mind?

Oh wait... they are... unless they involve hallucinations about a higher power, then it's a strawman.

Wow, you really went deep into the links before you thought about posting didn't you?

Such blind faith in their smuggness........

[Riverwind]

If you can think of a society that doesn't have at least some aversion to killing their own species, they likely would have all killed each other and died off a long time ago.

Every human society accepts that killing others is acceptable in certain conditions. Each society has complex rules to control when killing it is ok. Societies exist today where it is acceptable to kill your own children if they 'dishonour' your family. So you cannot really argue that these rules are directly connected to a desire to propagate your genes.

Basically, our sense of "ethics" (outside of any other beliefs) is whatever allows our species to survive. At the very least, that involves not killing each other and helping each other out (eg sharing food).

I would go one step further and argue that believing is a higher power also allows our species to survive. 80% of the world's population believes in some sort of God and only about 1% believe there is definitely no God (see link). I can't imagine a trait could be that dominant in the species without having some genetic basis.

[Remiel]

I think, perhaps, that if you really want to know why atheism and theism are similar, you have to first know why atheism and nihilism are different.

[Riverwind]

Atheism has NO GOD in it. That makes it fundamentally, axiomatically, and by definition NOT religious.

Only because you insist on equating religion == belief in a god. Try looking up the meaning of the word religion instead of inventing your own:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.

8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

It is pretty clear to me that a religion is any system of beliefs that may or may not involve a diety.

[gc1765]

Every human society accepts that killing others is acceptable in certain conditions. Each society has complex rules to control when killing it is ok. Societies exist today where it is acceptable to kill your own children if they 'dishonour' your family. So you cannot really argue that these rules are directly connected to a desire to propagate your genes.

Again, certain beliefs are a result of culture/religion, while others are a result of evolution. In this case, this society probably believes that killing is wrong, but because of their religious (or whatever) beliefs they think it's ok to kill their children under certain circumstances. Even then, it could be argued that having obedient children will more likely result in grandchildren (and thus propogation of genes). More likely, however, is that evolution did not 'select' for a society that kills it's children under certain circumstances. Evolution is not perfect, it really is trial and error. It's likely that this society is in the "trial" phase.

I would go one step further and argue that believing is a higher power also allows our species to survive. 80% of the world's population believes in some sort of God and only about 1% believe there is definitely no God (see link)

Absolutely. There is no question that the vast majority of societies have some sort of religious beliefs. The question is why? I don't know the answer, though my guess would be that it's not believing in a higher power that allows our species to survive. More likely, it's our tendency to be curious/ponder/think/ask questions/try-to-explain-things that allows our species to survive, and belief in a higher power is a by-product of our curiousity.

[Figleaf]

The bold items are no part of atheism:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.

8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

It is pretty clear to me that a religion is any system of beliefs that may or may not involve a diety.

So, as you can see, there are important differences, even using your definition. In any event, I think the following definitions 1-4 (with 5 being just colloquaial) are more in line with what people think of in terms of religion:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source

re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj'ən) Pronunciation Key n.

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

[Figleaf]

There is no question that the vast majority of societies have some sort of religious beliefs. The question is why? I don't know the answer, though my guess would be that it's not believing in a higher power that allows our species to survive. More likely, it's our tendency to be curious/ponder/think/ask questions/try-to-explain-things that allows our species to survive, and belief in a higher power is a by-product of our curiousity.

Well said.

[Riverwind]

More likely, it's our tendency to be curious/ponder/think/ask questions/try-to-explain-things that allows our species to survive, and belief in a higher power is a by-product of our curiousity.

I would disagree. Belief in a higher power is an incredible coping/survival tool. The saying that 'there are no atheists in fox holes' is quite true.

[Riverwind]

5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

IOW - atheism is a religion.

[Figleaf]

More likely, it's our tendency to be curious/ponder/think/ask questions/try-to-explain-things that allows our species to survive, and belief in a higher power is a by-product of our curiousity.

I would disagree. Belief in a higher power is an incredible coping/survival tool. The saying that 'there are no atheists in fox holes' is quite true.

I want to make sure I understand your contention ... are you saying that belief in religion is useful because it can encourage people?

[Figleaf]

5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

IOW - atheism is a religion.

Did you read my post?

Anyway, atheism isn't really 'pursued'.

[Riverwind]

I want to make sure I understand your contention ... are you saying that belief in religion is useful because it can encourage people?

I said it is a coping tool when people are faced with stressful situations. People with a strong belief in a higher power are intrinsically better able to deal with it and move forward. This is not true in all cases, however, I think it statistically valid assertion that explains why a belief in a higher power is the dominant trait in the species.

[gc1765]

I would disagree. Belief in a higher power is an incredible coping/survival tool. The saying that 'there are no atheists in fox holes' is quite true.

Or the opposite could be true. People who believe that paradise is awaiting them when they die might not be as concerned about dying as someone who thinks that this life is all they have.

[Leafless]

I see your bent, and cannot in the life of me figure where you determined that because I don't believe in any god, nor any religion , that I am contributing to the downfall of society.

Actually it is Liberal nanny-ism and 1982 'Charter of Rights and Freedoms' that removed the importance of Christianity in Canada and is probably the main reason you feel confident enough for your public contempt of Christianity.

The point is to publicly beat down Christianity in favour of atheism, shows just how immature you really are and how you fail to recognize (even if you don't believe in Christianity) the importance to society, a national religion plays in maintaining social unity.

Very few people in this country go to church (17%) . Are they all the reason (in your mind only) that CDN society is in freefall?

I to have seen this frequently out on the net and simply believe it there solely to beat down Christianity in favour of a secular society.

I don't go to church that often either, but support my Christian denomination and fully believe Christianity is beneficial to families who wish to participate.

But the strange thing is, out of all people who beat down Christianity, I have heard few complaints against Muslims, who in the U.S. (Canada would be similar results) say 47% believe they are Muslim first rather than American with 70% who say religion is very important, with 61% who pray everyday and 40% attend mosque on a weekly basis.

[Riverwind]

I would disagree. Belief in a higher power is an incredible coping/survival tool. The saying that 'there are no atheists in fox holes' is quite true.

Or the opposite could be true. People who believe that paradise is awaiting them when they die might not be as concerned about dying as someone who thinks that this life is all they have.

A person who did not have such a belief would not sacrifice themselves for others. Altruism is a an important human trait and I believe it is connected to the tendency to believe in a higher power.

Note that a 'higher power' is not always a deity. The higher power for a secular humanist is the abstract concept of 'humanity'.

[kuzadd]

Sorry river, not what I meant.

Can one kill in the name of nothing? Being an atheist means no belief. I suppose one can and has killed in the name of Christ/Mohammed/other religious icon, but to say one kills in the name of atheism seems, well wrong.

killing in the name of atheism is, not just wrong, it nonsensical.

[kuzadd]

Being an atheist means no belief.

Atheism is a just another type of religious belief system. Fundamentalist atheists are as dogmatic as any radical christian or Muslim. Mao and Stalin singled out people who practiced traditional religions in their purges because they were a threat their atheistic ideology.

Atheism is not a 'type of religious belief'

Definition of Atheism and Atheists Today

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofat...atisatheism.htm

There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists — atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means. Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different.

[cybercoma]

Saying that people need God and religion for comfort doesn't offer any sort of credibility to it. It does nothing to prove the existence of God and if a fabricated set of superstitious beliefs is comforting, then I'd rather be uncomfortable and know the truth. Regardless, the comfort provided by religion is greatly overshadowed by the suffering caused by it, yet theists don't use that opposing fact as evidence against the existence of God.

[kuzadd]

this whole article is BS.

1. Celebrating the death of somebody you disagreed with pretty much makes you a dick.

Uses Jerry Falwell as an example, interesting, but of all the people to use, well, how very christian.

Now he was a very divisive man, who preached alot of division, of the type that seems to always make christians happy, but, let's face it, because he was so divisive and so antagonistic, some people, probably thought it was good, he was gone.

But why? In the writers opinion, but, why? No reason., just shouldn't cause "your a dick" nice name calling\\

2. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One : don't see this as correct, in religion, you can justify all sort of attrocities in the name of God, since an atheist has no God, nothing can be justified in the name of a God, any God. One can say, God made me do it, or it is my duty under God. Atheists, don't say that!

3 Both Sides Really Do Believe What They're Saying: of course they do, but, only in the case of christians, is alot of that based on religious/God/retribution/reward./sin beliefs.

4: In Everyday Life, You're Not That Different , no were not, but not for the most bogus arguements this author sets up, because we are all human beings, is why we are not all that different.

this sentence is pure conjecture "Atheists, even if you reject the idea of God completely and claim to live according only to the cold logic of the physical sciences, you all still live as if the absolute morality of some magical lawgiver were true. " where does the writer get this huge assumption from??

Ok, i've wasted enough times, basically what the author does is set up some of the most nonsensical arguements possible, like betrayal of a girlfriend, and relates it to an "injustice" when it's about trust.

Attempts to give everything a religious spin, so he can make a link between atheists and religion.

Did anyone actually read the whole thing?

even the words the author uses are loaded with religious baggage.

"Atheists, you know that Christians have freaking died because they refused to walk away from what they believe. "

Any number of people may have died 'for a cause' not necessarily ,involving religion, so what does this prove?

I find the whole thing nonsensical.

[kuzadd]

continuing on with the bogus factor:

does anyone ever notice how alleged religious people, do the most immoral things, while claiming to be moral, from a religious perspective anyway.

Like all the ministers who have affairs on there spouses, they have committed relationships,(heterosexual of course, and ordained in the eyes of God, of course) in which over a number of years together, they have built a trustworthy relationship, that is secure, and reliable, someone to count on, etc., Despite all the alleged moral superiority, they have from their religion, they betray the trust their partner has in them. Even with all that morally superior religion?

[Riverwind]

There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists — atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means.

Atheists can call themselves whatever they want - it does not change the fact that Atheism is just another form of religion.

Anyone who presumes that they have a monopoly on the 'truth' and that all other belief systems are inferior are, by definition, religious zealots. Atheists are often guilty of exactly that behavoir.

[Riverwind]

Saying that people need God and religion for comfort doesn't offer any sort of credibility to it.

Who said it needs to be real to be useful?

Regardless, the comfort provided by religion is greatly overshadowed by the suffering caused by it.

Ah yes. Vilify the belief systems of others so you can feel better about your own. Aren't you doing exactly what you accuse the theists of doing?