Education Authories Abuse Their Power

[Figleaf]

In my opinion, these cases represent an abuse of power by the school authorities. If these kids have committed defamation, let them be pursued in court. If they have commited a crime, bring in the police. But if all they have done is express views that are unpleasant to the school personel, then leave them alone.

If they were graduates of the school or other private citizens the school would have no ability to punish them for these writings, and so, the only way the school has to do something is the fact that they have power at present over them. Using the existence of authority to punish someone who would not otherwise be punishable is an abuse.

Excerts from the Toronto Star ...

Five Grade 8ers bumped from end-of-year trip after ridiculing their teachers

Apr 30, 2007 04:30 AM

Theresa Boyle, Staff Reporter

At least five Grade 8 students from a Thornhill school have been banned from an end-of-the-year trip to Montreal after disparaging remarks about teachers appeared on the Internet.

"We were just joking around. Nothing we said was meant to cause others harm," Bram Koch, a 14-year-old student from Willowbrook Public School, said last week.

Last Dec. 11, Bram wrote a message to friends on the popular website Facebook.com, ... joking that he thought he'd seen a teacher masturbating.

... Other derogatory remarks were made about teachers, including one about a phys-ed teacher who "gives masturbating tips," he said.

Letters about "misuse of the Internet" were last week sent to parents of about 20 students at Willowbrook by principal Kelly Fassel. Parents were asked to meet with her about their children's conduct and that's where at least five of the students found out they were no longer welcome on next month's two-day trip to Montreal.

Bram said ... "... I was just writing it to my friends. I didn't expect that the teachers would get involved and that they would be reading this."

Fassel did not return a call from the Star.

The Internet musings of students is a growing problem for school administrators.

Just last month, five students at Birchmount Park Collegiate in Scarborough were suspended ...

In February, 19 students from Robert F. Hall Catholic Secondary School in Caledon East were suspended after complaining about school policies on Facebook.

Robert Dunn, a superintendent with the York Region District School Board, said he could not discuss individual students, but noted that any violation of Willowbrook's safe schools policy is subject to discipline. ... A specific section of the policy deals with Internet use and reads: "Misconduct carried out over the Internet may be subject to school discipline, whether carried out at home, at a school or elsewhere."

...

"The thing about Facebook, of course, is that it becomes public space so it's just like taking out a billboard at Yonge and Steeles, except it's larger than that because everyone in the world gets to look at it," [Koch] said.

Koch acknowledged that what Bram wrote was "stupid," but said the school has overstepped its bounds by disciplining his child for an act carried out in his own home.

"He was not on school property, he was not using school equipment, it was not during school time," he said.

"The moment you've entered my house, my living room, you're taking over my role," he charged.

Meantime, Bram is upset about being excluded from the trip. ... "It's a once-in-a-lifetime trip with your friends," he added.

[Shakeyhands]

This is a very interesting happenstance.

One one hand, the kids need to be kept in check. On the other, its censorship.

Their parents should have been informed and left to deal with it, not the school.

Kids will always say and do stupid things, this new medium brings forth all kinds of debatable issues.

[guyser]

Wow, what a conundrum.

I really dont know where I stand on this. at first I wanted to say butt out teachers, it was off the school property .

But then the allegations are of a sexual nature against a teacher and the ramifications are considerably worse than if perpetrated against another student. The wrong person seeing that description not knowing it to be false and then has a problem with the school/admin/teacher blurts it out in a meeting is then tainted.

Allegations of abuse , when entirely made up, have ruined many many teachers and left them searching new professions. It is front page news when made, and page 20 when the charges are dropped.

I see the free speech aspect of it, and likely was a prank. Now of course free speech does not mean anyone can say anything and these kids are going to pay, but they should be shouldering the blame for loss of income should the teacher/admin whatever suffer.

Man, even rereading this, I really dont know what I would do, apart from firmly instilling in my kid a better sense of the harm words can and do have.Plus lose any privileges he/she may have. Bye bye computer !

[M.Dancer]

Kids need to learn two things. respect and the conaquenced of not showing respect.

fuck them....they should also have some detentions to go with merely removing them from a perq. Probably won't do anything for the little pricks but it might instill some fear of God into the next snot nosed brat .....

[Remiel]

That is ridiculous, M.Dancer. Would you volunteer to live in an authoritarian state so that people would be bound to " show the proper respect " , no matter where they are or who they are with?

[M.Dancer]

That is ridiculous, M.Dancer. Would you volunteer to live in an authoritarian state so that people would be bound to " show the proper respect " , no matter where they are or who they are with?

These aren't people, these are teenage students.

[Figleaf]

Ah, such brilliant insight, M.Dancer!

What's next then, monitor their phone calls, screen their personal correspondence, and record their conversation in case they say anything unfavourable about a teacher? Get real.

Schools should butt out of students' private lives.

[guyser]

Schools should butt out of students' private lives.

At some time I may have agreed with you. But this is something that we have never had to deal with. Printed rants, made up lies, all aimed at ruining a teachers life. Even the hint, nary a sniff of improper conduct against a teacher can put that person on the outside looking for another job. Schools and admins see it far better to rid themselves of any suspected teachers than to seriously look into and find out about any allegations.

The schools would rather just send a kid home for misbehaving, as if confining Johnny to his room, what with his X box, Ipod, 30HDTV, as punishment.

I admit I do not have an answer, and I am a strong believer in rights, but these kids are trampelling on someone elses rights, and the liability they have (the kids) is not met by the liability imposed.

As for butting out, on matters not dealing with school, or teachers, I do agree. There are schools in the US who have breathalyzers ready and waiting on Monday morning. Suspected of drinking (underage) over the weekend and still have booze in the system..?....busted. Now that is pathetic. Drug testing kids, pathetic , locker searches and police in schools, pathetic.

But knowingly trying to ruin a teacher , not pathetic.

[Figleaf]

Schools should butt out of students' private lives.

At some time I may have agreed with you. But this is something that we have never had to deal with. Printed rants, made up lies, all aimed at ruining a teachers life. Even the hint, nary a sniff of improper conduct against a teacher can put that person on the outside looking for another job. Schools and admins see it far better to rid themselves of any suspected teachers than to seriously look into and find out about any allegations.

The schools would rather just send a kid home for misbehaving, as if confining Johnny to his room, what with his X box, Ipod, 30HDTV, as punishment.

I admit I do not have an answer, and I am a strong believer in rights, but these kids are trampelling on someone elses rights, and the liability they have (the kids) is not met by the liability imposed.

As for butting out, on matters not dealing with school, or teachers, I do agree. There are schools in the US who have breathalyzers ready and waiting on Monday morning. Suspected of drinking (underage) over the weekend and still have booze in the system..?....busted. Now that is pathetic. Drug testing kids, pathetic , locker searches and police in schools, pathetic.

But knowingly trying to ruin a teacher , not pathetic.

Some good points Guyser, and I'll give you my thinking on them...

If the kids have legally defamed the teacher, then the remedy for that should be pursued. If the kids have threatened or harassed the teacher (within the legal meaning of those terms) then the remedy for those offenses should pursued. But if the behaviour falls short of something the teacher could pursue against any third party, then using the power they have over them in the school is wrong.

[guyser]

If the kids have legally defamed the teacher, then the remedy for that should be pursued.

Thats the gist of my arguement. I do not see a remedy, or at least a fair remedy for the teacher.

Adults against adults is one thing, life aint fair, so take them to court.

But in this country and dealings with teachers against students is never won by the teacher. You have what is legally an adult suing a minor. And when or if the teacher wins, they still lose.

[M.Dancer]

Ah, such brilliant insight, M.Dancer!

What's next then, monitor their phone calls, screen their personal correspondence, and record their conversation in case they say anything unfavourable about a teacher? Get real.

Schools should butt out of students' private lives.

There is no private when it comes to public postings on the internet. You are simply losing perspective and getting your panties in a knot over nothing. This isn't a human rights issue, it's an issue of respect and these little asses go out of their way to be direspectful. It is not alreight to pollute a learning environment by allowing children to publiclly humiliate those in authority over them. A simple solution is to suspend them till they publicly apologize.

[Figleaf]

But in this country and dealings with teachers against students is never won by the teacher. You have what is legally an adult suing a minor. And when or if the teacher wins, they still lose.

I'm not sure why you say that. Of course the kids don't have money, but their parents should be made vicaroiusly liable if an award is made. More important would be the court declaration that whatever the kid said was false and scurrilous. Additionally, it is likely that any parent confronted with a lawsuit because their kid said something stupid will act quickly to curtail the behaviour.

The point I'm making is this ... the authority granted to teacher over the kids WITHIN the school environment does not (and should not) create an authority over them outside of the school environment. Being someone's teacher shouldn't be used to confine them in ways outside of school that do not apply to a non-student.

There is no private when it comes to public postings on the internet. ... This isn't a human rights issue, it's an issue of respect and these little asses go out of their way to be direspectful. It is not alreight to pollute a learning environment by allowing children to publiclly humiliate those in authority over them. A simple solution is to suspend them till they publicly apologize.

By private I mean outside of the institutional context of the public school.

And no, it's not a human rights issue at all. It's an issue of what the limits of a bureaucrat's legal authority are. It matters not one whit WHAT was said (if it doesn't violate a law), whether it's not 'respectful' or whether it's not funny or whether it's the craziest thing ever uttered or whether it's musically unpleasant.

As for polluting the learning environment, IT WASN'T IN the learning environment. And the authority over them ends at the edge of the school grounds.

I agree the teachers and administrators responsible should be suspended.

[M.Dancer]

As for polluting the learning environment, IT WASN'T IN the learning environment. And the authority over them ends at the edge of the school grounds.

I agree the teachers and administrators responsible should be suspended.

Whether it was in the school or not is irrelevent. Believe it or not some kids go to school to learn and some teachers ar their to assist them. If other kids feel that they can get away with slagging teachers simply because they are not on school property at the time, then the authority and discipline of the teachers and the admin will degrade and the learning environment will suffer.

BTW,aggreeing with your self is a lot like masterbating so I won't argue the point with an expert.

[M.Dancer]

And no, it's not a human rights issue at all. It's an issue of what the limits of a bureaucrat's legal authority are.

In that case nevermind. The authority of the admin to cancel or suspend a student's perqs are well defined. They have the unquestioned right. Sort of like giving a kid a detention for not doing his homework neatly...you know, homework which isn;t done on school property but in private.......

[August1991]

In my opinion, these cases represent an abuse of power by the school authorities. If these kids have committed defamation, let them be pursued in court. If they have commited a crime, bring in the police. But if all they have done is express views that are unpleasant to the school personel, then leave them alone.

If they were graduates of the school or other private citizens the school would have no ability to punish them for these writings, and so, the only way the school has to do something is the fact that they have power at present over them. Using the existence of authority to punish someone who would not otherwise be punishable is an abuse.

I'm very surprised that you Figleaf would raise this point.

You mention calling in the police, suing people or going to court. This is bureaucratic and time-consuming. Who will bother?

The best solution to injustice or sheer stupidity is to cross the street and go elsewhere. The best chance we have to obtain justice is to give people a choice. And the basic difference between rich people and poor people is that rich people have more choices. If you want to help poor people, give them more choices.

I returned to Canada a few years ago, and then came into contact with Canada's school system on a regular basis (my sister is a teacher in the State system). I have been thinking about this for some time now, reflecting on my own education.

Our school system forces kids to sit in a room for over a decade of their life. The kids have no choice about the room or what happens there. They can't leave. (And we call this "education".) To make matters worse, the teacher in the room is decided by "seniority" since this is a unionized occupation. And all the salaries of everyone involved are paid using "someone else's money".

In Canada, this system has only existed for everyone for about 50 years or so. It still works, sort of. I think technology and a general rise in living standards will soon overtake it. Canada's State education system is about to become like Canada's post office. It will become irrelevant.

BTW, Argus once made a wise remark here about teachers. Good teachers are essentially missionaries and they view their job as a "calling".

[Shakeyhands]

In Canada, this system has only existed for everyone for about 50 years or so. It still works, sort of. I think technology and a general rise in living standards will soon overtake it. Canada's State education system is about to become like Canada's post office. It will become irrelevant.

August, So what is the solution here, how do you stop the decline, are you thinking in terms of privitization?

[Hydraboss]

Point #1 - Figleaf has stated the case perfectly, so there is no need to add to it further. Teachers and administrators have a legal avenue available. If they choose not to use it...that's their CHOICE.

Point #2 - If you want to fix the state school system, start by disbanding the unions. Quit protecting the lazy and stupid and you will see the cream rise to the top. The idiot teachers will soon be run off, or teaching in a place where their performance isn't really a consideration anyway.

[geoffrey]

The idiot teachers will soon be run off, or teaching in a place where their performance isn't really a consideration anyway.

Ending unionisation of anything is nearly impossible, you know that. Teachers suprisingly have very strong unions.

Interestingly, they also think of themselves as professionals... professionals aren't union employees. I wonder if the teachers would accept that they are essientially low level labour in exchange for their union status. After all, it takes no skill or ability to be a teacher, just a degree and a school board with a shortage.

[Kapitän Rotbart]

Kids still have freedom of speech. If an adult or anyone not attending that school were to post such nonsense, it would go unpunished. Kids are people too.

However, I'm dissapointed that Facebook wouldn't censor the nonsense. I checked Facebooks terms of use:

In addition, you agree not to use the Service or the Site to:

* upload, post, transmit, share, store or otherwise make available content that, in the sole judgment of Company, is objectionable or which restricts or inhibits any other person from using or enjoying the Site, or which may expose Company or its Users to any harm or liability of any type.

Basically Facebook reserves the right to remove whatever they want from their network at their discretion. I think Facebook offers the possibility of reporting users. The kid should have been reported, and Facebook should have terminated their account (and ban the user's e.mail account). That would have been the "right thing to do", but alas it didn't work out that way.

Unless the kid broke any of the rules in the code of conduct, (s)he is not to be punished. However, if there is a rule relevant to this case in the code of conduct, then the school should enforce their rules (for instance if there is such of rule of not disrespecting school authorities on and off school property, then it should be inforced, otherwise the school is not respecting the kid's right to freedom of speech).

The situation had to be dealt with, but things which happen on school property are to stay off school property (the school or teacher could have brought the kid to court, for instance).

[Charles Anthony]

Unless the kid broke any of the rules in the code of conduct, (s)he is not to be punished.

I disagree.

There are very few things that are best taught in school which can NOT be taught elsewhere. One of those things -- albeit, indirectly -- is social power, consequences and the most bitter truth of all: life is not fair.

This is an issue of freedom of speech and many people do not realize that exercising their free speech has repercussions. These kids learned repercussions. If their parents do not like it, too bad. They should send their younger kids to a different school or keep them at home. Outside of their parents' home, kids are no longer the king of the castle.

[Figleaf]

Unless the kid broke any of the rules in the code of conduct, (s)he is not to be punished. However, if there is a rule relevant to this case in the code of conduct, then the school should enforce their rules (for instance if there is such of rule of not disrespecting school authorities on and off school property, then it should be inforced, otherwise the school is not respecting the kid's right to freedom of speech).

I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying there exactly.

There is no basis for a school to make up any rules or codes, or apply any sanctions, or use any school resources, that purport to govern student behaviour outside or away from the school context.

School authorities are not juvenile morality police or social regulators of youth. They need to focus their efforts and attentions on their jobs, not extraneous pursuits.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

... There are very few things that are best taught in school which can NOT be taught elsewhere. One of those things -- albeit, indirectly -- is social power, consequences and the most bitter truth of all: life is not fair.

It is absolutely not the role of a school to MAKE life unfair in order to teach students that life is unfair.

This is an issue of freedom of speech and many people do not realize that exercising their free speech has repercussions.

When an authority punishes expression, it is no longer free. The repurcussion you cite is merely repression.

If their parents do not like it, too bad. They should send their younger kids to a different school or keep them at home.

If it was my kid affected by this kind of abuse of power, they school would find itself in court so fast it would make their heads spin.

[M.Dancer]

If it was my kid affected by this kind of abuse of power, they school would find itself in court so fast it would make their heads spin.

Good luck on that....

It would be interesting to see some nutbar defending their child's right to be an little egotistical brat......to defend their child's right to defame ......

....and to get their child re-instated on what is in effect, an extra curricular activity.....

...yes that's what we need, more parents teaching their kids that to behave like a selfish asshole is meritous.....that their precious little children are above and beyond the basic common courtesies.....they are uberkinders.....

[Charles Anthony]

It is absolutely not the role of a school to MAKE life unfair in order to teach students that life is unfair.

I agree but I truly do not know what the role of school should be.

Are going to out-of-town school trips part of that role?

When an authority punishes expression, it is no longer free. The repurcussion you cite is merely repression.

I agree and I think that is the harsh reality of life.

If it was my kid affected by this kind of abuse of power, they school would find itself in court so fast it would make their heads spin.

Would you teach your child to denigrate teachers?

[M.Dancer]

There is no basis for a school to make up any rules or codes, or apply any sanctions, or use any school resources, that purport to govern student behaviour outside or away from the school context.

School authorities are not juvenile morality police or social regulators of youth. They need to focus their efforts and attentions on their jobs, not extraneous pursuits.

Sorry, there is.

Robert Dunn, a superintendent with the York Region District School Board, said he could not discuss individual students, but noted that any violation of Willowbrook's safe schools policy is subject to discipline.

Students are made aware of the policy at the beginning of the school year, when they are asked to take it home, read it, sign it and have their parents do the same, he said.

A specific section of the policy deals with Internet use and reads: "Misconduct carried out over the Internet may be subject to school discipline, whether carried out at home, at a school or elsewhere."

[M.Dancer]

So lets make this less virtual.....

Say there's this student bully and this student like to meet his peers near the mall and threatens to beat the crap out of them till they fork over some lunch coin.

Lets say the School is made aware of this studnet bully....

Now all this happens away from school....

Does the School have an obligation to protect the students?

I say they do.